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Zeitgueist posted:I'm not the one being self-righteous. Rich douchebags buying exotic luxuries has been a thing since there were rich douchebags. They are not douchebags because they are white and so culturally appropriating but because they became rich by exploitation. Zeitgueist posted:I was specifically talking about economic exploitation, not people making consumer choices.
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Mar 24, 2015 21:48
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Mandy Thompson posted:Whether its fair or not people do judge you by the way you dress and wear your hair.
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Mar 24, 2015 21:49
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Is this a bigger thing in the USA? I'm from an Asian majority part of London and lots of my white friends wear Sari's to weddings and stuff, it looks a lot less odd then being the only person in a black dress and everybody else is wearing multi-colours.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:11
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fspades posted:Rich douchebags buying exotic luxuries has been a thing since there were rich douchebags. They are not douchebags because they are white and so culturally appropriating but because they became rich by exploitation. Both. They exploit people, often ethnic and racial minorities, and one of the ways is through appropriation. quote:Then why the discussion revolves around white girls wearing saris? Was her sari made by an exploited Indian worker too? If so, what makes it so different than a regular shirt made by an exploited Indian worker? By making the center of debate about white people and their consumer choices you are obfuscating what is actually going on and inviting people rightly to ask "what's wrong with cultural interaction?" It is a question the left cannot give a coherent answer. I'm not making the debate white girls wearing saris. However appropriation is a real thing and something to talk about, and has connections to global economic exploitation.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:12
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What's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion?
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Mar 24, 2015 22:14
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Motto posted:What's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion? Conspicuous consumption
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Mar 24, 2015 22:16
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Mandy Thompson posted:One problem with wearing dreadslocks is that for white people, they are being rebellious, so lots of white people wearing them gets it labeled as rebellious and "unprofessional" and honestly they look terrible on white people so when actual black women wear them because that is how their hair is, they get pointed to a policy that ethnic styles are unprofessional But this isn't even consistent. If a non-Indian high-profile businesswoman starts wearing Saris and decorating her office with Indian art after a long time spent in India, she's denigrating the culture by her shallowness, or it's a gimmick. I also generally object to the idea that ethnic hairstyles are perceived as unprofessional because white people appropriated them: that seems bizarre to me. They're perceived badly because they're ethnic hairstyles, and the people that made the guidelines have no familiarity with or understanding of ethnic hair. Surely we're confusing cause and effect - ethnic styles of hair on white people is treated as rebellious because they are ethnic styles of hair from outside the culture. Ethnic hair is not treated as outside the culture because rebellious white people wore them. paranoid randroid posted:Well the complaint against Gwen Stefani is, I'd imagine, that she declared herself a Harajuku Girl and hired a brace of Japanese women to follow her around and never speak english. Which admittedly might just be garden variety racism, but the CA angle is something to the effect of "please don't treat other cultures like pokemon to be collected for your own amusement." I didn't bring up Stefani because I have literally no familiarity with the case, but what about Madonna? It's easy to bring up the cases of blatant racism and say they're wrong, but they're often wrong for other clearer reasons. It's far more interesting to discuss cases like Madonna, or Paul Simon. Or hell, Vampire Weekend's appropriation of Paul Simon's appropriation. How many generations removed does it have to be before it stops being appropriation and starts being authentic culture? Also Fiji water? What?
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Mar 24, 2015 22:19
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Periodiko posted:Also Fiji water? What? Turns out that beautiful island water may not be the best company in the world to the beautiful island it comes from. Relatively small example. Tea is probably a better example of a drink that was appropriated and then used to oppress.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:23
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Mandy Thompson posted:Its possible to care about both things. Even the people who get upset when a white guy eats ethnic food? e: Re: Dreadlocks, arn't those more of a lack of a hairstyle than anything else? I actually mostly see them on old hippy types around where I live.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:24
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-Troika- posted:Even the people who get upset when a white guy eats ethnic food? No, not really. Actually you're right, one time this social justice warrior on tumblr(  ) said a thing, turns out cultural appropriation is not a problem. Good work thread.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:27
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Mandy Thompson posted:Its possible to care about both things. Yeah, we should definitely listen to marginalized people when they express frustration with the relationship between their culture and the dominant one. Problem is, a lot of those marginalized people (like anybody else) are totally ignorant and worthless. Attention world: everything you have done is for me to use. If I want to do burnouts in a three-wheeled Korean lorry covered in eagle feathers, then jump out and play a sitar, will I not? Watch me.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:29
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SedanChair posted:Attention world: everything you have done is for me to use. If I want to do burnouts in a three-wheeled Korean lorry covered in eagle feathers, then jump out and play a sitar, will I not? Watch me. Well if nothing else, you got yourself some material for a completely sick music video.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:32
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Motto posted:What's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion? The same difference between purchasing and using an Apple product versus weeping outside an Apple store when you hear Steve Jobs died. It's when you absorb some abstract thing that isn't really yours as part of your identity because you want the trappings of that abstract thing to represent you. Except we can laugh at the Steve Jobs mourner because there is no basic Apple culture to appropriate. Appropriation is diffusion, just done in a really hamfisted and silly way that can be offensive to the authentic members of a given culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2FGgYp6mdk Davido-kun here is chasing an inauthentic, fictionalized Japanese culture which on a basic level is offensive because of its weeaboo levels of ignorance. But the offense of it is easily mitigated by the fact that he's a harmless idiot, so it ends up being comic. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 22:34
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Zeitgueist posted:Turns out that beautiful island water may not be the best company in the world to the beautiful island it comes from. Surely that's uncontroversial economic exploitation of a poor country? What is the cultural appropriation of Fiji water? Hell, I'm not saying you're wrong, but what is the oppressive cultural appropriation of tea? Yes the British did terrible things to secure tea, and introduced tea-drinking to countries they were subjugating, but I'm not understanding how the sin is in the sudden popularity of tea-drinking rather than the general colonial domination and warring?
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Mar 24, 2015 22:41
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Sri.Theo posted:Is this a bigger thing in the USA? I'm from an Asian majority part of London and lots of my white friends wear Sari's to weddings and stuff, it looks a lot less odd then being the only person in a black dress and everybody else is wearing multi-colours. That's just fitting in the appropriate context. If you were a white European person running around in saris and a bindi all the time talking about how much you totally love yoga and the Bhagava Gita and the deep ancient wisdom of India you'd be appropriating. It's the superficial treatment of someone else's culture which is the offense, versus respectfully participating in a different culture like wearing more culturally standard clothing to a wedding. twodot posted:Yes, but to the extent the problem exists, the problem is that people think dreadlocks are unprofessional, not that sometimes white people have dreadlocks and that somehow forces people to judge dreadlocks as unprofessional. People tend to think that dredlocks are unprofessional because white people who have dredlocks are rightly percieved as useless stoners. You have to go out of your way to grow dreds as a white person, because your hair doesn't naturally do that. You make this decision to signal some sort of cultural attachment, such as "I love smoking lots of weed and listening to Bob Marley and Phish." This then negatively impacts black people, for whom dreads are a natural and appropriate hairstyle free of negative cultural markers, because they are associated unfairly with white stoner culture. Dreds become associated with drug culture because a lot of twentysomething white kids decided that forcing themselves to grow dreads is a cool thing to do because that's what cool stoner man Bob Marley does. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 22:44
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Popular Thug Drink posted:That's just fitting in the appropriate context. If you were a white European person running around in saris and a bindi all the time talking about how much you totally love yoga and the Bhagava Gita and the deep ancient wisdom of India you'd be appropriating. It's the superficial treatment of someone else's culture which is the offense, versus respectfully participating in a different culture like wearing more culturally standard clothing to a wedding. To me what is ridiculous is not any "appropriation" but the half-assed adopting of pop forms of it, as above. You're not hurting anybody, you are just making yourself ridiculous, and your stunted teenage rebellion against your own whiteness is crying out to anyone who sees it. And yet despite all this, the Rolling Stones made good music and they fit this description to a T. The bottom line is, the interests and artistic tastes of most people are not worth even the slightest regard; only creative types who analyze and synthesize matter at all.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:48
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Can Western culture be appropriated?
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Mar 24, 2015 22:54
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-Troika- posted:Can Western culture be appropriated? Like an anime where wizards have sex with King Arthur?
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Mar 24, 2015 22:56
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-Troika- posted:Can Western culture be appropriated? If you can find a bit that hasn't been commodified already, sure.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:56
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Periodiko posted:Surely that's uncontroversial economic exploitation of a poor country? What is the cultural appropriation of Fiji water? Hell, I'm not saying you're wrong, but what is the oppressive cultural appropriation of tea? Yes the British did terrible things to secure tea, and introduced tea-drinking to countries they were subjugating, but I'm not understanding how the sin is in the sudden popularity of tea-drinking rather than the general colonial domination and warring? It's both. I'm giving examples of where cultural appropriation has had real consequences in poor nations around the world with regards to exploitation, to address the lovely idea that we can't talk about CA because oppression happens elsewhere. Truth is we really don't need to go beyond the US to see examples of appropriation used to profit off of and oppress, look at music.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:57
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-Troika- posted:Can Western culture be appropriated? Can the globally dominant culture that generally does the appropriation be appropriated. Probably. By who and how? Dunno.
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Mar 24, 2015 22:58
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-Troika- posted:Can Western culture be appropriated? Have you ever in your life complained about hipsters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WelslZZzPZo
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Mar 24, 2015 22:59
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Zeitgueist posted:It's both. I'm giving examples of where cultural appropriation has had real consequences in poor nations around the world with regards to exploitation, to address the lovely idea that we can't talk about CA because oppression happens elsewhere. Okay, but how is Fiji water cultural appropriation? Popular Thug Drink posted:People tend to think that dredlocks are unprofessional because white people who have dredlocks are rightly percieved as useless stoners. You have to go out of your way to grow dreds as a white person, because your hair doesn't naturally do that. You make this decision to signal some sort of cultural attachment, such as "I love smoking lots of weed and listening to Bob Marley and Phish." I'm sorry, but I really don't believe this is true. Is there some literature, or reference you can provide, because this beggars belief. White people do not have negative associations of dredlocks with rastafarian practices because of white dredlocks. That seems crazy to me.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:04
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Periodiko posted:I'm sorry, but I really don't believe this is true. Is there some literature, or reference you can provide, because this beggars belief. White people do not have negative associations of dredlocks with rastafarian practices because of white dredlocks. That seems crazy to me. What kind of musician has never been to a music festival 
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Mar 24, 2015 23:06
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Popular Thug Drink posted:What kind of musician has never been to a music festival I'm familiar with the existence of white dredlocks and the relevant subcultures, I'm not questioning their existence. That's not the crazy part.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:08
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i know it just beggars belief, that white people with dreds smoke weed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc9JzvuvNkA
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Mar 24, 2015 23:09
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Popular Thug Drink posted:That's just fitting in the appropriate context. If you were a white European person running around in saris and a bindi all the time talking about how much you totally love yoga and the Bhagava Gita and the deep ancient wisdom of India you'd be appropriating. It's the superficial treatment of someone else's culture which is the offense, versus respectfully participating in a different culture like wearing more culturally standard clothing to a wedding. Who does this sort of idiocy materially harm though, beyond people who invest part of their self-conception in being gatekeepers of an ossified vision of their ("their") culture? And how do you actually separate "respectful participation" from "superficial treatment?" There has been some incredible art created by people who were primarily interested in the most superficial aspects of a culture, and the idiot in your example might be completely sincere in their desire to participate in Indian culture in an entirely respectful manner (even if they're doing so very badly). Is there actually a difference that doesn't amount to an accusation of having exhibited bad taste?
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Mar 24, 2015 23:10
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LGD posted:Who does this sort of idiocy materially harm though, beyond people who invest part of their self-conception in being gatekeepers of an ossified vision of their ("their") culture? And how do you actually separate "respectful participation" from "superficial treatment?" There has been some incredible art created by people who were primarily interested in the most superficial aspects of a culture, and the idiot in your example might be completely sincere in their desire to participate in Indian culture in an entirely respectful manner (even if they're doing so very badly). Sorry dude, there's no official rulebook to determine when someone's being a hapless shithead. I think superficial adoption of cultural markers to miscommunicate an idealized and fictionalized perception of a different culture is an acceptable benchmark. Unforunately there's no way to objectively quantify the meaning inherent in human behavior~
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Mar 24, 2015 23:13
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Popular Thug Drink posted:i know it just beggars belief, that white people with dreds smoke weed I find it hard to believe that it took white people wearing dreads for the same hair style in African Americans to be viewed with disdain
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Mar 24, 2015 23:19
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LGD posted:Who does this sort of idiocy materially harm though, beyond people who invest part of their self-conception in being gatekeepers of an ossified vision of their ("their") culture? And how do you actually separate "respectful participation" from "superficial treatment?" There has been some incredible art created by people who were primarily interested in the most superficial aspects of a culture, and the idiot in your example might be completely sincere in their desire to participate in Indian culture in an entirely respectful manner (even if they're doing so very badly). Its completely subjective but it does have consequences sometimes, and we should be willing to hear out people who have a problem with their culture being appropriated, especially without much permission or credit. An example is the offensive use of Indians as mascots by white owned teams, or the use of Indians in branding. For example, the real Cherokee tribe was sued for trademark infringement by a white owned company that trademarked the name "Cherokee" for blue jeans and other clothing and lost. Crazy Horse is considered a cultural hero and its rather demeaning to see him used as a mascot to sell malt liquor, something that harms the native american community.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:27
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Dubstep Jesus posted:I find it hard to believe that it took white people wearing dreads for the same hair style in African Americans to be viewed with disdain Okay, obviously its not the only reason, its just a piece of something that hurts the credibility of people who have used that style before white people decided to wear it to be cool.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:28
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Mandy Thompson posted:Here is an example of it going in the other direction One might argue that it is somewhat preferable to seeing the uniforms as something which commands respect and reverence.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:30
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A perfect example of cultural appropriation is Iggy Azalea. Someone who adopts "hood" culture as there own while not being from the hood, and at times doing and saying things that are actually harmful to people that are from there.
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Mar 24, 2015 23:46
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blackguy32 posted:A perfect example of cultural appropriation is Iggy Azalea. Someone who adopts "hood" culture as there own while not being from the hood, and at times doing and saying things that are actually harmful to people that are from there. Is it harmful? Like, what are white people feeling as they apply ghetto stereotypes to black people, fueled in part by "Fancy" or whatever? Is she inciting them to greater heights of racism?
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Mar 24, 2015 23:48
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SedanChair posted:Is it harmful? Like, what are white people feeling as they apply ghetto stereotypes to black people, fueled in part by "Fancy" or whatever? Is she inciting them to greater heights of racism? Define "harmful". Because some of the poo poo she has tweeted has been pretty incendiary.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:03
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Eh there is an argument that normalizing the status quo and reinforcing negative stereotypes is a problem. But calling it appropriation of "
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Mar 25, 2015 00:08
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SedanChair posted:Is it harmful? Like, what are white people feeling as they apply ghetto stereotypes to black people, fueled in part by "Fancy" or whatever? Is she inciting them to greater heights of racism? I've only ever seen Iggy in the video for "Fancy" which was basically a tribue to "Clueless". It'd be interesting to know the horrible things she has apparently done, because that song and video seemed utterly harmless.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:11
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Mandy Thompson posted:Its completely subjective but it does have consequences sometimes, and we should be willing to hear out people who have a problem with their culture being appropriated, especially without much permission or credit. An example is the offensive use of Indians as mascots by white owned teams, or the use of Indians in branding. For example, the real Cherokee tribe was sued for trademark infringement by a white owned company that trademarked the name "Cherokee" for blue jeans and other clothing and lost. Crazy Horse is considered a cultural hero and its rather demeaning to see him used as a mascot to sell malt liquor, something that harms the native american community. Google is coming up with nothing regarding Cherokee jeans other than apparently being owned by an Indian corporation. Link?
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Mar 25, 2015 00:16
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Powercrazy posted:Eh there is an argument that normalizing the status quo and reinforcing negative stereotypes is a problem. But calling it appropriation of " Yes, a white girl from Australia who is even clueless about the racism in her home country and how it relates to Aboriginal housing, comes to the United States, adopts rap music as her platform, then proceeds to poo poo on minorities using a myriad of stereotypes while making money off a "hood" persona. http://black-australia.tumblr.com/post/86986108822/in-this-video-iggy-azalea-is-interviewed-by-the http://piggyazalea.tumblr.com/ Also, note how I never called it black culture. I mean Eminem while receiving many of the same criticisms has never poo poo on his audience in the way that Iggy Azalea has.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:19
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blackguy32 posted:A perfect example of cultural appropriation is Iggy Azalea. Someone who adopts "hood" culture as there own while not being from the hood, and at times doing and saying things that are actually harmful to people that are from there.  Somehow raps in a southern "black" vernacular, is from New Zealand. Text is subtitle btw. Zeitgueist fucked around with this message at 00:22 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 00:20
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