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Once again we have a phenomena were minorities complain about an experience, but confused white people have never encountered it, so it must not exist right? The world may never know...
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Mar 25, 2015 03:53
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Once again we have a phenomena were minorities complain about an experience, but confused white people have never encountered it, so it must not exist right?
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Mar 25, 2015 04:08
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The Insect Court posted:Wow, I never knew those undocumented Guatemalans working the kitchen over at the local Chinese take-out place were cultural appropriators. Gonna put on my black bandana, fill up a couple molotov cocktails, and go let those Enemies of the People know how "problematic" their cultural appropriation is. You're making a lot of strawman arguments. No one said all appropriation was bad. Rent-A-Cop posted:And then other confused white people fail to differentiate between decades of systematic under representation of minorities in their unique cultural arts and white people rapping. This basically
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Mar 25, 2015 04:09
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Rent-A-Cop posted:And then other confused white people fail to differentiate between decades of systematic under representation of minorities in their unique cultural arts and white people rapping. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgosh-nqzro
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Mar 25, 2015 05:00
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GhostofJohnMuir posted:Once again we have a phenomena were minorities complain about an experience, but confused white people have never encountered it, so it must not exist right? The world may never know... Nah this phenomenon is mostly white people complaining about other white people.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:03
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rakovsky maybe posted:Nah this phenomenon is mostly white people complaining about other white people. Hmm... I thought that I had exterminated all the other panoptics three thousand years before.
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Mar 25, 2015 05:05
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This has gotta be the dumbest branch of internet social justice thought, oh no a white person put a dot on their forehead  my culture
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Mar 25, 2015 06:40
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Still not seeing the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion in most of the examples given ITT (I'm pretty sure cultural diffusion can be commodified). poo poo like the Redskins mascot is not cultural appropriation, it's a racist caricature. What is being appropriated there besides a racist stereotype of American Indians created by white people? Leftists say that white people appropriated rock and roll from black people (as if rock and roll were invented in a cultural vacuum with no influence from European and Anglo-American styles of music), and that this is cultural appropriation because black musicians did not receive the pay and recognition they deserved. In other words, their criticism lies specifically with a racist music industry (and a racist white audience) discriminating against blacks--not white kids copying Elvis who copied stuff from rhythm and blues and gospel while adding his own style. The term is cumbersome and arbitrary to the point of uselessness. The Swastika is the most convincing example of cultural appropriation since the Nazis effectively deleted the original meaning of the symbol in many parts of the word and replaced it with their own. Typical Pubbie fucked around with this message at 07:18 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 07:14
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Typical Pubbie posted:Still not seeing the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion in most of the examples given ITT (I'm pretty sure cultural diffusion can be commodified). poo poo like the Redskins mascot is not cultural appropriation, it's a racist caricature. What is being appropriated there besides a racist stereotype of American Indians created by white people? Leftists say that white people appropriated rock and roll from black people (as if rock and roll were invented in a cultural vacuum with no influence from European and Anglo-American styles of music), and that this is cultural appropriation because black musicians did not receive the pay and recognition they deserved. In other words, their criticism lies specifically with a racist music industry (and a racist white audience) discriminating against blacks--not white kids copying Elvis who copied stuff from rhythm and blues and gospel while adding his own style. The term is cumbersome and arbitrary to the point of uselessness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant
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Mar 25, 2015 07:21
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Look im sympathetic to the concept but youre gonna have to come up with something slightly more rigorous than 'I knows it when I sees it'
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Mar 25, 2015 07:28
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A big flaming stink posted:Look im sympathetic to the concept but youre gonna have to come up with something slightly more rigorous than 'I knows it when I sees it' Most of the examples posted ITT are good explanations of the concept unless someone really for some suspicious reason wants to split hairs about whether someone is appropriating something or just plain racist. It's almost like they categorically reject uncomfortable terminology or something! This thread is just a thinly veiled whinefest anyway so kick back and have a little fun at the expense of people who are playing at being stubborn to make a big show over how much they just don't get it. Pictured: definitely not an ignorant, superficial adoption of someone else's culture. 
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Mar 25, 2015 07:56
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there are more important problems in the world than people ~appropriating~ a knockoff of other people's behaviour e: fspades posted:Cultural appropriation is another trivial thing the worthless American left obsesses over while literally billions of "people of color" are suffering tremendously under poverty, exploitation and imperialism. The only reason why it is a hot button issue is because it involves Katy Perry and snotty college students. suck my woke dick fucked around with this message at 08:34 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 08:30
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Would it be a case of inappropriate cultural appropriation if Swiss watchmakers decided to independently create watch movements that were similar in function to certain Japanese watch movements made by Seiko and Casio? Is Taco Bell an inappropriate cultural appropriation? Pizza Hut? McDonald's? What about President Obama's claims in regards to being an African-American, despite being a first (second?) generation American? And on that note, is it right for African-Americans to appropriate slave culture (AAVE, or "ebonics" is generally considered to be a variation of slave languages) even though almost none living today were ever slaves? Is it wrong for immigrants to appropriate the American culture of speaking English, or is it right to expect illegal immigrants to appropriate our laws and follow them? Should we allow undocumented workers to do their own thing and not expect them to integrate with American society because that would be politically incorrect? Why do we criticize "anti-vaxxers", when it was culturally acceptable to let your children get polio, measles, the pox (all of them), syphilis, gonorrhea, herpes, and other diseases just as little as one century ago? Is it right for the English language to use "loan words" from other languages? Perhaps those should be stricken from the American English dictionaries, and new words not based on loan words or pre-existing words in other languages should be created, so as not to offend other cultures. I don't know the answer to any of these questions, and that makes me sad. edit: Would it be inappropriate to gather up all the best things and bits of knowledge from all the cultures, and then use that stuff to create a sort of "master culture", and just go from there? ...but that would never work, because people would kill each other over their opinions about what should be included in the "master culture". Jakcson fucked around with this message at 09:08 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 09:00
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As usual, Americans are insane.
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Mar 25, 2015 09:09
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Pictured: definitely not an ignorant, superficial adoption of someone else's culture.
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Mar 25, 2015 10:52
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He just looks like a Redskins fan to me.
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Mar 25, 2015 11:11
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Typical Pubbie posted:Still not seeing the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion in most of the examples given ITT (I'm pretty sure cultural diffusion can be commodified). poo poo like the Redskins mascot is not cultural appropriation, it's a racist caricature. What is being appropriated there besides a racist stereotype of American Indians created by white people? Leftists say that white people appropriated rock and roll from black people (as if rock and roll were invented in a cultural vacuum with no influence from European and Anglo-American styles of music), and that this is cultural appropriation because black musicians did not receive the pay and recognition they deserved. In other words, their criticism lies specifically with a racist music industry (and a racist white audience) discriminating against blacks--not white kids copying Elvis who copied stuff from rhythm and blues and gospel while adding his own style. The term is cumbersome and arbitrary to the point of uselessness. The only way to fight racism is to assume that it's all a big blob with RACIST on the front and not distinguish anything else at all. Mhm. And no, liberals and leftists say that rock n' roll has been culturally appropriated because it has been made white music. Blue-eyed soul, for example, didn't end up appropriating soul as a whole genre, because it didn't end up making white soul artists the norm. Jazz and the blues sit between the two, in that they've become much more white, but their history is still largely recognized and it's still ordinary to find black jazz and blues musicians. Rock n' roll has absolutely been appropriated.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:07
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Honestly I think the problem with the term cultural appropriation is that, like "problematic," it's a really weaselly coward way of not hurting people's feelings by saying "racist." Like that picture of the Redskins fan isn't cultural appropriation, it's a loving horrendous racist caricature of actual living people. So since this new word has been created and it lacks all the power and implications of "racist," it starts to get used in an overly broad way as a negative. If people were asking "is this racist?" instead of "is this cultural appropriation?" they'd be able to see that, say, Reese Witherspoon wearing a kimono in Japan and taking part in a tea ceremony might be cultural appropriation, since she's participating in a highly esteemed foreign cultural activity, but it is not bad or offensive because she is being respectful during said highly esteemed foreign cultural activity: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WuE7kgxXcbA She clearly understands how important tea ceremonies are, and is not mocking it. Maybe the problem isn't appropriating culture, since that seems somewhat inevitable, but being disrespectful when you do it is.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:08
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A lot of people are taking the position that any and all interaction with a culture not your own is appropriation. This would say a lot about their mindset, but I'm guessing most of 'em don't even try to parse what "cultural appropriation" would mean. Cultural appropriation is an interaction that damages the culture's ability to define itself by ripping parts of it out. So, wearing kimono to a tea ceremony is not appropriating. Wearing kimono as pajamas or a robe isn't even appropriating for most people. Wearing kimono as a fashion statement? Probably appropriating. Trying to make kimono a regular, everyday garment is almost certainly appropriating. Granted, this has limited ability to damage Japanese culture, but Japanese-American culture is a hell of a lot more vulnerable. Of course, there are a lot of people who are quite eager to see subcultures annihilated and would appropriate ever-more-furiously if it could force "assimilation".
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Mar 25, 2015 13:19
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I don't know whats worse: the people who deny cultural appropriation exists or the people who basically want to tell minorities what they REALLY should be angry about.Effectronica posted:A lot of people are taking the position that any and all interaction with a culture not your own is appropriation. This would say a lot about their mindset, but I'm guessing most of 'em don't even try to parse what "cultural appropriation" would mean. Cultural appropriation is an interaction that damages the culture's ability to define itself by ripping parts of it out. You basically got it. It's not that people are just wearing poo poo. It's people wearing poo poo without understanding the context in which it is worn or what it signifies. In Iggy Azalea's example, its about her taking on this persona while not even getting it right. I mean, for as terrible Macklemore is, he at least doesn't do near the amount of stupid poo poo that Azalea does.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:41
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Jakcson posted:I don't know the answer to any of these questions, and that makes me sad. No you know the answers, and you know your purpose in asking those questions. And we know as well.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:52
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Effectronica posted:Cultural appropriation is an interaction that damages the culture's ability to define itself by ripping parts of it out. I'm still having difficulty making a distinction between that and simply "change".
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Mar 25, 2015 13:57
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lots of people itt wanting this to be a white-white issue when not even the three quotes from the OP are from white people. there is tons of literature on this topic from nonwhites to boot. smdh the Redskins thing is definitely CA; just because something is racist, inaccurate, or chintzy doesn't mean it can't be CA. They use stylized imagery, etc. of a culture their culture annihilated to sell merch and poo poo. It doesn't get more CA than that. It is ALSO racism, they aren't mutually exclusive.
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Mar 25, 2015 13:59
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OwlFancier posted:I'm still having difficulty making a distinction between that and simply "change". One gets you Tumblr likes and a sense of self superority over an anonymous person on the internet. The other is change.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:00
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OwlFancier posted:I'm still having difficulty making a distinction between that and simply "change". One of them is done to the culture and the other by the culture. This shouldn't be hard.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:00
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Effectronica posted:One of them is done to the culture and the other by the culture. This shouldn't be hard. If you're going to argue that only internal influences are permissible you're going to have to illegitimise a vast swathe of existing cultures. Living in the UK, almost everything we have came from somewhere else. Aside from possibly feudal Japan, I'm not sure anywhere on the planet could claim that it hasn't had massive amounts of cultural modification by outside sources.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:10
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OwlFancier posted:If you're going to argue that only internal influences are permissible you're going to have to illegitimise a vast swathe of existing cultures. Living in the UK, almost everything we have came from somewhere else. That's not what's being argued. That's just the basic mistake you're making. This also isn't a historical thing to delegitimize existing cultures, or whatever you're terrified of.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:12
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Effectronica posted:That's not what's being argued. That's just the basic mistake you're making. This also isn't a historical thing to delegitimize existing cultures, or whatever you're terrified of. Then I'm having trouble seeing what is being argued because all cultures are involutarily changed all the time. Technological progress has completely changed how things work over the past century or so, destroying a lot of old traditions across the world, but I'm not sure it makes sense to complain about it very much, as it's hardly likely to stop it from happening in the future. You're going to have to demonstrate the difference because I'm having trouble seeing it.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:15
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You're not allowed to use anything from a culture that isn't the one you grew up in. Growing up in the midwest, that means I'm only allowed to wear overalls and trucker hats, as that is the traditional garb of my people.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:18
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OwlFancier posted:Then I'm having trouble seeing what is being argued because all cultures are involutarily changed all the time. Technological progress has completely changed how things work over the past century or so, destroying a lot of old traditions across the world, but I'm not sure it makes sense to complain about it very much, as it's hardly likely to stop it from happening in the future. Well, yes, you're really stupid. But let me try this again- cultural appropriation is when you take something from another culture and damage or destroy their ability to use it for themselves. This differs from other forms of cultural change because it is done to a culture rather than by it, and because the cultural component is then used by the culture that stole it. Armyman25 posted:You're not allowed to use anything from a culture that isn't the one you grew up in. Nobody has said this in this thread. Not a single person. You're making it up because you're threatened by the possibility of refraining from doing something. Maybe we should call it "cultural trespassing", and then my fellow Americans would joyously shoot anyone that appropriated culture.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:18
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OwlFancier posted:I'm still having difficulty making a distinction between that and simply "change". Cultures change all the time in specific contexts and circumstances, yes. But that does not mean it is ok for one to try to change other people's cultures to suit their own needs. A Native American headdress exists for a specific purpose and a specific context. That doesn't mean its ok for a white person to wear it as a fashion statement.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:20
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When I left this thread we were almost there to talk about the systemic exploitation of the global poor, but we are back to discussing pop stars, actresses, and their kimonos then? Nice, nice... I have an important inquiry for POC culture scholars: I saw my friend Kyle smoking tobacco with a hookah the other day. Is he merely insensitive or a Real Shithead? Effectronica posted:One of them is done to the culture and the other by the culture. This shouldn't be hard. Who belongs to what culture, and under what right they have authority to dictate its content?
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Mar 25, 2015 14:21
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Effectronica posted:Well, yes, you're really stupid. But let me try this again- cultural appropriation is when you take something from another culture and damage or destroy their ability to use it for themselves. This differs from other forms of cultural change because it is done to a culture rather than by it, and because the cultural component is then used by the culture that stole it. But even using the example of the Redskin fan above, how does the sports team using a fake version of Indian traditions stop the actual tribes from still practicing them?
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Mar 25, 2015 14:22
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fspades posted:When I left this thread we were almost there to talk about the systemic exploitation of the global poor, but we are back to discussing pop stars, actresses, and their kimonos then? Nice, nice... Okay, dude, you're just as much a part of Nigerian culture as a guy from Lagos is. By the way, I enjoyed your sneering assertion that Native Americans are labor aristocrats earlier in the thread. Armyman25 posted:But even using the example of the Redskin fan above, how does the sports team using a fake version of Indian traditions stop the actual tribes from still practicing them? Because their ability to say that "this is the meaning of this" in relation to their culture is destroyed. There's always the appropriated stuff with its meanings, itself more powerful than anything the tribe can do. If "spirit animals" are thought of as New Age bullshit, then Native religion becomes bullshit as well, because young people attempting to become part of the religion will still have the New Age nonsense in the back of their heads. If headdresses have no symbolic meaning than "is Indian", then the customs surrounding them become meaningless because "is Indian" outweighs those customs.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:27
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Effectronica posted:The only way to fight racism is to assume that it's all a big blob with RACIST on the front and not distinguish anything else at all. Mhm. And look, we're back to dubious history as the only consistent method of proving CA. Please cite the black cultural movement of Rock and Roll that was scorched from existence by Elvis and Led Zepplin. If that proves difficult then maybe rock and roll did not replace a black cultural phenomenon, but created a similar but distinct movement within white culture. People in this thread are having a hard time citing instances of CA where the source culture was "ripped from existence" as a result of white people mimicking out-cultures. The Swastika is a compelling example. Typical Pubbie fucked around with this message at 14:29 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 14:27
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Effectronica posted:Well, yes, you're really stupid. But let me try this again- cultural appropriation is when you take something from another culture and damage or destroy their ability to use it for themselves. Is there any examples of this please, where an existing culture had to forgo and give up something they did just because another started to do the same.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:28
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fspades posted:Who belongs to what culture, and under what right they have authority to dictate its content? I dunno, maybe Japanese people who actually know what context the Kimono is used for and who negative stereotypes affect the most have some say in what it should be used for. They certainly have more claim to it than Katy Perry ever did. Again, no one is stopping you from wearing such things. It just makes you look like a huge shithead when you do. As for your second point, under what right did white people have to come and marginalize other people's cultures in favor of their own while picking and choosing what they wanted to use from each culture in the pursuit of money, power, prestige, or sex?
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Mar 25, 2015 14:28
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Typical Pubbie posted:And look, we're back to dubious history as the only consistent method of proving CA. Please cite the black cultural movement of Rock and Roll that was scorched from existence by Elvis and Led Zepplin. If that proves difficult then maybe rock and roll did not replace a black cultural phenomenon, but created a parallel movement within white culture. Okay, so how many black rockers can you name? Hendrix, Little Richard and who else? Motown primarily focused on soul, and deliberately cultivated a sound that couldn't be replicated by white artists, so it actually strengthens the point. Which basically that in the 1950s you had a situation where "race music" became rock n' roll because white artists recording rockers completely displaced black artists out to the fringes, where they had to make use of soul, funk, R&B and so on to record music because rock had become overwhelmingly white.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:33
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Effectronica posted:Okay, dude, you're just as much a part of Nigerian culture as a guy from Lagos is. By the way, I enjoyed your sneering assertion that Native Americans are labor aristocrats earlier in the thread. Bullshit. Things are as important as you make them. A person's belief in a religion is not contingent on the opinions of other people. Catholic iconography is used all over the place in popular culture. It doesn't detract from the actual belief system itself.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:33
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Armyman25 posted:Bullshit. Things are as important as you make them. A person's belief in a religion is not contingent on the opinions of other people. Catholic iconography is used all over the place in popular culture. It doesn't detract from the actual belief system itself. Do you think that people are completely free of influence from the environment in which they live in? Do you think that Native religions are in an identical situation to Catholicism in America? happyhippy posted:Is there any examples of this please, where an existing culture had to forgo and give up something they did just because another started to do the same. That's not what's being said. Please respond to what I actually said, and I will write up an answer, but you're not going to redefine things like this and get answers.
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Mar 25, 2015 14:36
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