fspades posted:

Cultural appropriation is another trivial thing the worthless American left obsesses over while literally billions of "people of color" are suffering tremendously under poverty, exploitation and imperialism. The only reason why it is a hot button issue is because it involves Katy Perry and snotty college students.

Boing posted:

This just in from UKMT:

Echo Chamber posted:

There are people who want to contort white people with Chinese letter tattoos into a free speech issue or Political Correctness Gone Mad rather than just agree it's stupid and move on.

Echo Chamber posted:

You're doing exactly what I described, by twisting it into a story about the PC police.

I get the impression that they're not even arguing about the thing supposedly in question but are instead displaying the tip of the iceberg of anxiety and resentment.

"Making fun of clueless weaboos and sinophiles? It's gone too far. This is where I draw the line."

Popular Thug Drink posted:

Effectronica posted:

Except that that's not really the case. First of all, there's a growing realization that white cultures are capable of being appropriated, which someone in-tune with internet leftism should be aware of, especially since it produces really annoying stuff.

Effectronica posted:

Well, personally, I'm glad that you've decided to boldly declare for nihilism, like so many other people in the USA. It will make it so much easier for me to convince my fellow Americans that blood sacrifices and deification of the Presidency are 10,000-year-old American traditions.

VitalSigns posted:

Fifteen year olds have always had foolish political opinions since ever, why is this go-round the herald of the apocalypse?

Obdicut posted:

Oh. Ok. I haven't found anything like that. Right now my main interaction with 'social justice' is working with a professor and a local hispanic unity group to help would-be deportees plead their cases, especially in establishing narratives that show they face death, torture, etc. if they go home. Racism comes up a lot but I haven't heard any one mention anything about racism = prejudice plus power.

BottledBodhisvata posted:

Is drinking coffee cultural appropriation?

Morkyz posted:

voted 5

Effectronica posted:

People are using appropriation to refer to (a class of) destructive cultural interactions, because those are the only ones they consider to be bad. Nobody thinks that Americans eating schnitzel is bad, because it doesn't impinge on the cultures that originally produced schnitzel at all. People think that white Americans wearing kimono as a fashion statement is bad because they believe it impinges on Japanese-American (and the broader Asian-American) cultures and damages them. People that are informed generally agree that "spirit animals" is a bad thing because it damages Native religions and cultures.

7c Nickel posted:

In the same sense that Black History Month is segregation.

Effectronica posted:

This thread started with an article by a Chinese-American dude complaining about kimono. You should probably complain to him, instead of to me. Also, if you really think immigrants either exactly replicate their mother culture or abandon it entirely, you're... actually of average intelligence for this thread. Not to mention that I didn't even endorse it as a true statement, even. So, in conclusion, you and the rest of the people that obsess solely over money money money should get the reward of Crassus.

Effectronica posted:

Okay, so why aren't you bombing the German heritage festivals you can find all around the country? Or at least writing stern letters to the editor about this resistance to assimilation? Little lily around the ol' liver? Face it. People don't always fall in with conformity, and you should be glad of it, because otherwise you'll be constantly in a state of ignorance and misery.

Effectronica posted:

Okay, so you've realized that your position is incredibly stupid, but you're not willing to admit it, so you start off on the whole "care" thing. Which applies to why you're posting about how bad this thread is just as much. I guess that promoting assimilation is less important to you than whining, which is good, but it would be better if you didn't care about whining as well.

Effectronica posted:

The next step is to start pretending that you really meant FGM, or human sacrifice, or whatever, I see. Does this come with a side of implicit accusations or is it a la carte?

Effectronica posted:

In other words, you have read that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing, but you managed to misunderstand it.

Effectronica posted:

So what did you mean? Maybe if you decided to communicate instead of being snide, you'd be able to have people understand you for the first time in your life, and you could move on to things like having people get your order right at restaurants. Or you could see my edit.

Effectronica posted:

If someone does something harmless, and they want to do it, and someone else wants to stop them from doing it, is the second person good, bad, or neither for wishing to force other people to abide by their will?

Effectronica posted:

LMAO

quote:

Is diversity a good thing, in your view? Or, conversely, is lack of diversity a bad thing?

Effectronica posted:

Okay, so the extermination of said cultures would be a bad thing, right?

Effectronica posted:

Is it that reducing diversity is good, or is it that you view subcultures as food, something for you to devour?

Effectronica posted:

Who's saying anything about conserving cultures? You're acting like cultures inevitably collapse into a monoculture without strict boundaries despite the weight of history against you.

Effectronica posted:

This level of fatalism is usually a symptom of major depression. The whole point is that cultures dying or being assimilated is a consequence of human will.

Effectronica posted:

Is it that reducing diversity is good, or is it that you view subcultures as food, something for you to devour?

Miltank posted:

Aren't you?






If conserving cultures from the monoculture isn't what you are talking about then I have no idea what it is.

effectronica would have posted:

you just don't get it

Effectronica posted:

You're the one arguing in terms of absolutes, but I see that you're playing the game where you use different definitions. I guess that I'll redefine "btw" to refer to a confession of complicity in the Rwandan genocide.

quote:

Do you think that the distinction between cultures disappears automatically without segregation, or are you just saying that cultures should be exterminated as often as possible because there's no value in maintaining them.


Well, I guess diversity is bad then because some people are assholes.

Effectronica posted:

I have outlined the definition I am using multiple times, and the reasoning why at least twice. I will even write it out again if reading the thread is such a painful experience for your little head.

quote:

Why are you assuming that all cultural change would be banned if we acknowledged this class of interactions as bad? Is it because you feel vaguely threatened, or are you just naturally paranoid?

Effectronica posted:

If you're going to put it to a choice between "zero control over yourself" and "total control over others", I'd have to choose punching you in the face.


Funnily enough, this hasn't happened with Germany and France, or between Brittany and the rest of France, or with Wales and England

Effectronica posted:

By the primary culture imposing its definitions on the minority culture! Jesus! This should not be hard. Appropriation is one means by which these definitions can be imposed, by subtracting elements. There are others!

Effectronica posted:

Culture also involves practices, dumbass. If the majority culture declares that Passover is unacceptable and persecutes those who practice it, no matter how powerful your internal perceptions are, your ability to practice a definition of Jewishness that includes celebrating Passover is constrained.

steinrokkan posted:

Specifically in the Jewish case it should be pretty obvious. And I'm not talking only about the Holocaust. Communist countries led numerous show trials against Jewish metropolitanists simply because the leading ideological dogma defined the Jewish people as metropolitan diversants who were incompatible with the internationalist ideal. In that case the Jewish identity was suppressed by the external definition created by the dominant group. It didn't matter how the Jews saw themselves, as long as somebody could be labeled as "citizen of Jewish origin", he was treated differently and forced to act upon the imposed definition.

steinrokkan posted:

For instance in the case of Jews in Communist countries, rabbis were placed under authority of attaches selected by Cultural Ministries, which were obviously part of the dominant consensus re. Jewishness. Which led to pressure on changing the internal life of Jewish communities. The externally formed idea of Jewish identity became implanted into the Jewish community itself. That's a phenomenon related to appropriation, I would say.

Effectronica posted:

If kimono are redefined by the majority culture as a culture-neutral garment, then they have had their Japanese origin erased and can no longer serve as an signifier of Japanese identity. You should probably care more about the culture that's under siege by people who brag about assimilation, which is not Google culture. Assuming you have a moral compass.

steinrokkan posted:

It's possible. Maybe c.a. should be seen as a cross-disciplinary area of interest than a thing of its own.

Effectronica posted:

Jesus loving Christ, I decide to finally, actually, call someone a racist outright and they're too dumb to get it. Holy poo poo.

Miltank posted:

I am only speaking to your claims about how culture is damaged by appropriation. I don't have anything to say about what things people find offensive, which I assume is what you mean by 'care'. I also don't mean to say that cultural appropriation is never bad. It is often quite bad because it is happening in a context of exploitation or racism.

Your argument as I understand it, is that the primary culture threatens to destroy minority cultures by undermining the way that the minority culture understands itself. Is that right?

If that is your claim, then I disagree. If its not then I would like you to better explain or to link me to a place that does.

I don't want to type a lot more words refuting something that might not be your argument so maybe this will be the end of my post.

Effectronica posted:

No, my argument is that certain actions have the potential to damage minority cultures both by impairing the ability to practice culture and by threatening the ability of the minority culture to define its cultural institutions. Obviously you disagree with the latter, and probably not with the former, but your disagreement comes down to declaring that in order to be a really distinct culture, you need to have a sanitary cordon preventing you from being influenced by other cultures, or specifically the primary culture of the society. You phrased it in a really poor way, but the idea itself is rather ridiculous and actually, really, invokes the whole "artificially preserving cultures" notion that people have been attributing to me and to others.

-Troika- posted:

That's exactly what it is. Effectronica argues with the imaginary people in his head, not with us

Effectronica posted:

Do you really not see the difference between "cultures don't need to be isolated to exist" and "cultures are invulnerable to any possible harm"?