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You know how shut in nerds freak out about fake gamer girls? They're mad about cultural appropriation. Really most/all of Gamergate is shut in nerds losing their poo poo about cultural appropriation, except that they angrily reject sociological terms so they have to grasp for words and miscommunicate.
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Mar 24, 2015 17:43
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Boing posted:I agree. So where is the line? What is it specifically that makes an instance of cultural 'borrowing' disrespectful? When a larger group borrows some aspect of culture from a smaller group and uses it outside the intended context, sometimes the new meaning of that aspect can be rewritten by its misuse. That's when it becomes an issue, because the larger group has the power to modify the smaller group's culture without their consent. Take Cinco de Mayo and St. Patrick's Day in the American context. What do these days even celebrate? For the dominant white culture, these days are an excuse to get shithammered in public and decorate with tacky symbols. They have no real meaning in and of themselves, but we think they do because they celebrate something somewhere, I dunno, maybe. These days don't actually change any part of Irish-American or Mexican-American culture but they trivialize and cheapen it, especially in the former case as it just perpetuates the stereotype that the Irish are hapless drunks. There's no clear line as to when appropriation becomes harmful, as everyone will have different attitudes. We can't even really delinate between when there is natural and good borrowing/assimilation versus the more forceful and mean-spirited appropriation. We can generally agree though that people exploring their spirituality by paying some con artist hundreds of dollars to sit in an 'authentic' sweat lodge is just pathetic among all parties. Boing posted:It seems to me that what should bother people isn't cultural appropriation itself, but something more specific, and the offended people are talking about all forms of cultural exchange as a whole rather than focusing on the aspects that constitute blatant disrespect. I can't quite pin it down, but it reminds me of attempts to universally demonise the porn industry for its bad practices and treatment of women, even though that's nothing that's specific to the porn industry, there's nothing in principle stopping porn from being healthy and ethical, and there are similarly bad practices (or worse) in almost every industry imaginable. Also don't waste your time trying to critically analyze what some randos on the internet have to say. You might as well try to debate in youtube comments for all the good it will do you, unless you just want to yell at internet strawmen for some dumb reason. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 17:58
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Quantumfate posted:but I wouldn't know that it's upset over an appropriation of their culture as much as an undermining of it. ~it's the same thing~
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Mar 24, 2015 17:59
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Powercrazy posted:I guess this is the part where we start debating what a "real" culture is, and why doing X isn't appropriation, but doing Y is. Well here we have an example of someone trying and failing to appropriate Good Posting culture, so there are examples all around us if you know where to look.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:02
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Boing posted:Replace OBE with whatever American (or your relevant culture) medal of high honour is appropriate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Valor_Act_of_2013 Legislation passed because most Americans get super pissed when you appropriate military culture.
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Mar 24, 2015 18:14
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Periodiko posted:Is it in the act of being inspired by a neighboring subculture's musical tradition, of which you are a participant? Or is it in the exploitation of original black artists, and the scrubbing of the art form for white consumption? Is there something inherently disrespectful about having a shallow appreciation of another culture? Re-recording black music with white artists is disrespectful because it illustrates that the content of the music didn't matter, but rather the color of the musicians. As a musician I'm sure it would bother you if American music was only popular in China if it was covered (poorly) by Chinese artists with little/no acknowledgement of the original author. Periodiko posted:I understand the underlying principal of being respectful to other people's cultures, but the concept of appropriation seems to hinge on some huge generalizations that don't actually seem to be practical or descriptive of reality. It seems to ignore that art, in many cases even with art-forms steeped in tradition and culture, is hugely syncretic and often irrational, unconsidered, or "shallow". It seems to hinge on this really precious understand of culture and cultural artforms that has very little to do with reality. It seems very sanctimonious and conservative, and hostile to natural forms of cross-cultural communication that have historically enhanced understanding. I think you're being overly sensitive to imaginary strawmen arguments and this is causing you to misunderstand the nature of appropriation.
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Mar 24, 2015 19:06
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fspades posted:And that is something American progressives incapable of actually addressing, as they have repeatedly demonstrated, and no amount of "discussion" or "raising awareness" will change that. This is a fair criticism, but it acknowledges that cultural appropriation is a real problem that actually exists.
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Mar 24, 2015 20:04
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fspades posted:No it isn't. You know what is a real problem that will affect the lives of "PoC" tremendously and which Americans can do something about it? Global warming. So it's a problem because leftists do it, but it also isn't a problem at all, because it doesn't meet your threshold for seriousness? Ok guy that's a weird way to justify your anger at leftists but whatever floats your boat I guess. It would be more honest to just say you hate them instead of trying to play their game. "Heh. Don't these anti-capitalist people know that all the things they have, were made by... capitalists? Check and mate, dear sir."
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Mar 24, 2015 20:13
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please don't trivialize the impact that the heat death of the universe has on third world persons of color you hypocritical SJW freshmen
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Mar 24, 2015 20:25
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fspades posted:I don't hate leftists, I'm a leftist. I hate what passes as leftism over there and their silly blogs and campus communities. The global warming example (and it is just an example) was given to show you how far you people are up on your own asses, and how little motivation you have to actually change something. Be true to yourselves; who are you trying to discipline when you complain about cultural appropriation? Woah an angry leftist accusing angry leftists of being angry leftists, nice
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Mar 24, 2015 20:34
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Motto posted:What's the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion? The same difference between purchasing and using an Apple product versus weeping outside an Apple store when you hear Steve Jobs died. It's when you absorb some abstract thing that isn't really yours as part of your identity because you want the trappings of that abstract thing to represent you. Except we can laugh at the Steve Jobs mourner because there is no basic Apple culture to appropriate. Appropriation is diffusion, just done in a really hamfisted and silly way that can be offensive to the authentic members of a given culture. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2FGgYp6mdk Davido-kun here is chasing an inauthentic, fictionalized Japanese culture which on a basic level is offensive because of its weeaboo levels of ignorance. But the offense of it is easily mitigated by the fact that he's a harmless idiot, so it ends up being comic. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 22:34
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Sri.Theo posted:Is this a bigger thing in the USA? I'm from an Asian majority part of London and lots of my white friends wear Sari's to weddings and stuff, it looks a lot less odd then being the only person in a black dress and everybody else is wearing multi-colours. That's just fitting in the appropriate context. If you were a white European person running around in saris and a bindi all the time talking about how much you totally love yoga and the Bhagava Gita and the deep ancient wisdom of India you'd be appropriating. It's the superficial treatment of someone else's culture which is the offense, versus respectfully participating in a different culture like wearing more culturally standard clothing to a wedding. twodot posted:Yes, but to the extent the problem exists, the problem is that people think dreadlocks are unprofessional, not that sometimes white people have dreadlocks and that somehow forces people to judge dreadlocks as unprofessional. People tend to think that dredlocks are unprofessional because white people who have dredlocks are rightly percieved as useless stoners. You have to go out of your way to grow dreds as a white person, because your hair doesn't naturally do that. You make this decision to signal some sort of cultural attachment, such as "I love smoking lots of weed and listening to Bob Marley and Phish." This then negatively impacts black people, for whom dreads are a natural and appropriate hairstyle free of negative cultural markers, because they are associated unfairly with white stoner culture. Dreds become associated with drug culture because a lot of twentysomething white kids decided that forcing themselves to grow dreads is a cool thing to do because that's what cool stoner man Bob Marley does. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 22:50 on Mar 24, 2015 |
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Mar 24, 2015 22:44
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-Troika- posted:Can Western culture be appropriated? Have you ever in your life complained about hipsters? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WelslZZzPZo
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Mar 24, 2015 22:59
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Periodiko posted:I'm sorry, but I really don't believe this is true. Is there some literature, or reference you can provide, because this beggars belief. White people do not have negative associations of dredlocks with rastafarian practices because of white dredlocks. That seems crazy to me. What kind of musician has never been to a music festival 
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Mar 24, 2015 23:06
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i know it just beggars belief, that white people with dreds smoke weed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc9JzvuvNkA
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Mar 24, 2015 23:09
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LGD posted:Who does this sort of idiocy materially harm though, beyond people who invest part of their self-conception in being gatekeepers of an ossified vision of their ("their") culture? And how do you actually separate "respectful participation" from "superficial treatment?" There has been some incredible art created by people who were primarily interested in the most superficial aspects of a culture, and the idiot in your example might be completely sincere in their desire to participate in Indian culture in an entirely respectful manner (even if they're doing so very badly). Sorry dude, there's no official rulebook to determine when someone's being a hapless shithead. I think superficial adoption of cultural markers to miscommunicate an idealized and fictionalized perception of a different culture is an acceptable benchmark. Unforunately there's no way to objectively quantify the meaning inherent in human behavior~
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Mar 24, 2015 23:13
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SedanChair posted:Ahaha oh boy I wonder what her explanation was for that. Or does she bother? She was referencing a Kendrick Lamarr lyric, and botched it. Sorry white lady people will be offended if you refer to yourself as a slavemaster. quote:“Dear world,
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Mar 25, 2015 00:31
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Powercrazy posted:I'm absolutely not defending Azalea, I don't really know enough to critique specific examples of hers, I'll agree with whatever position you have on her. But accusing her of "hood culture" appropriation seems a bit hypocritical especially considering the justified backlash against people criticizing "hood," "black", or "ghetto" culture right? It's possible for people to mimic a false stereotype so long as it has cultural relevance. You can also dress like Santa Claus incorrectly.
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Mar 25, 2015 00:52
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Powercrazy posted:Sure, I've had a girlfriend who has dressed as slutty santa-clause which is absolutely a cultural appropriation of Santa Clause, but so? Im not sure you understand, and suspect you may simply be looking for an excuse to whine.
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Mar 25, 2015 01:37
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Powercrazy posted:I'm pretty sure I wasn't your freshman roommate unless you were a frat-boy "appropriator" with an asian girl-friend. Perhaps it says something that my experience isn't all that unusual and that you are probably "incorrect" to assume there is something wrong with something that no one else seems to have a problem with. Man you sure are angry for someone who's not even sure if he believes in or cares about the thread topic.
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Mar 25, 2015 03:40
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Rent-A-Cop posted:And then other confused white people fail to differentiate between decades of systematic under representation of minorities in their unique cultural arts and white people rapping. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bgosh-nqzro
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Mar 25, 2015 05:00
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Typical Pubbie posted:Still not seeing the difference between cultural appropriation and cultural diffusion in most of the examples given ITT (I'm pretty sure cultural diffusion can be commodified). poo poo like the Redskins mascot is not cultural appropriation, it's a racist caricature. What is being appropriated there besides a racist stereotype of American Indians created by white people? Leftists say that white people appropriated rock and roll from black people (as if rock and roll were invented in a cultural vacuum with no influence from European and Anglo-American styles of music), and that this is cultural appropriation because black musicians did not receive the pay and recognition they deserved. In other words, their criticism lies specifically with a racist music industry (and a racist white audience) discriminating against blacks--not white kids copying Elvis who copied stuff from rhythm and blues and gospel while adding his own style. The term is cumbersome and arbitrary to the point of uselessness. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant
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Mar 25, 2015 07:21
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A big flaming stink posted:Look im sympathetic to the concept but youre gonna have to come up with something slightly more rigorous than 'I knows it when I sees it' Most of the examples posted ITT are good explanations of the concept unless someone really for some suspicious reason wants to split hairs about whether someone is appropriating something or just plain racist. It's almost like they categorically reject uncomfortable terminology or something! This thread is just a thinly veiled whinefest anyway so kick back and have a little fun at the expense of people who are playing at being stubborn to make a big show over how much they just don't get it. Pictured: definitely not an ignorant, superficial adoption of someone else's culture. 
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Mar 25, 2015 07:56
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It's kind of amazing how many people have posted ITT "I don't understand this thing, and that's your fault" like since when has it been a thing to be loud and proud about ignorance as a debate technique? Don't get it.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:44
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OwlFancier posted:Since people started being very angry about people not understanding things. Burden of proof and all that. So you accuse other people of being angry, which is what causes you to openly admit multiple times that you simply don't understand the topic of this thread Ok guy, uh, sure. That makes as much sense as multiple posts declaring thing doesn't exist despite it being patiently explained for six pages now. I'm sure this isn't related to any unwillingness to accept even mild or indirect criticism or anything.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:56
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OwlFancier posted:I'm saying that if you put forward an argument, it's not unreasonable for people to ask you to defend it. If you don't defend it very well, I don't think that makes it the fault of the person who doesn't agree with the argument. The burden of proof lies with the person making the assertion, generally speaking. You literally said you don't understand how people feel like they can have ownership of culture. That's kind of an important thing to understand when you start talking about culture! OwlFancier posted:It is, rather. That person wasn't agreeing with you. How can you be so bad at this? I think I found your problem.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:02
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OwlFancier posted:Culture very, very definitely to my mind is a one way thing. You can identify as part of one, be affected by one, but you can't claim creative control over one, not meaningfully anyway. Is there a difference between group belonging as identity formation and actual ownership of a tangible concept in your mind? Do you think that you actually own your group of close friends? Like if you reduce human behavior to a wonky intellectual property analogy uh yeah I can see how that doesn't line up, in your mind. I don't know if I care to explain basic social concepts about how people have ideas to a rando forums person, but that might be the foundational source of your baffling inability to accept that people construct their identity through shared symbols, objects, and practices.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:11
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OwlFancier posted:No, of course I don't own them, which is why I don't tell them what to do? So you interpret crticism of bad behavior as "telling someone what to do"? OwlFancier posted:Culture is the net expression of a lot of people's ideas and thoughts, as you introduce more people, the net expression changes as a result. The only way you can avoid that is by being completely isolationist? And even then, that also changes the culture because now isolationism is a component of it. You must be British.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:19
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OwlFancier posted:What does it mean then? Because I'm not sure I believe that people point out things they disagree with without hoping the person being criticised will change as a result. It would be rather a waste of words otherwise. Me pointing out that your posts are bad and your arguments are bad is not me implicitly saying you should stop posting. In fact I appreciate every post you make.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:26
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A big flaming stink posted:The degree to which this thread magnifies the impact of personal fashion choices of white people is pretty egotistical. Like what you wear has a profound impact on the struggle for justice. Why do you think any discussion of cultural activity is a "cry for justice"? It's like whining about how talking about sexism in games directly translates to a desire to ban sexist games. The defensiveness levels are off the charts ITT
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Mar 25, 2015 17:30
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"You kids! What did I tell you about baptizing each other in my rain barrel! Get out of h- no! No, don't you dare hold a convention to establish the truth of biblical literalism! Don't you dare split, I don't need two of you little shits running around! Don't you DARE advocate salvation through grace on my lawn! I know your father!"OwlFancier posted:Culture changes, always. Planting your identity in it is probably a bad idea if you want something enduring to define yourself. If you're looking for that I think it's going to have to be a conscious decision on your part to stick to the ideas you like, regardless of outside influences. "Everything dies. Family, friends, your ideals, everything you love - it dies. It's foolish to even try to define yourself in the face of a hostile, entropic world. Be free of all obligations to self." -A goon who deeply understands people
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Mar 25, 2015 17:45
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OwlFancier posted:Close, but more that it's foolish to pick something extremely mutable to borrow your self definition from. I think you're confusing the presence of thousands year old cultures with people acutely, in the present moment, being a fool. It's an easy mistake to make, so I understand your confusion.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:51
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OwlFancier posted:Such is modern life. I can understand depending on your culture once upon a time, when information from around the world wasn't shoved down your throat 24/7 but I wouldn't put much faith in it now. We aren't as isolated as we used to be, so we change more. haha literally Dehumanize Yourself And Face To Bloodshed, nice! blackguy32 posted:One would think that if information was so free flowing, that some of these people would research whatever the hell they were getting into instead of just going by dumb stereotypes. No no, the advantage of limitless information is the freedom to avoid using it to knowledgeable and constructive ends.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:59
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:What about cultural appropriation as part of the Artistic process? Should we stop listening to the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, or gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado?/ What about fantasy novels like Bridge of Birds or The Wind-up Girl? Even at their worst, the Beatles or the Rolling Stones weren't prancing about in blackface. For it to be appropriation, you'd have to regard Mississippi blues as the inferior, derivative product which is just a knockoff of the highly innovative white British teenagers of the 1950s. It's very difficult to artisitcally borrow while also ignoring or downplaying the influence of the person you borrowed from. It would be just as strange to claim that academic citation is cultural appropriation. boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 18:02
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Well, I'm reasonably sure that zeppelin got sued over stealing from howling wolf, so that's one way to denigrate the prior source: simply take it and PSS it off as your own original work. Yes, but that's an actual plagiarization which is prosecutable by law. You can't copyright a sound, or a method of doing things. But if Jimmy Page passed himself off as a authentic bluesman from Tupelo...
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Mar 25, 2015 18:11
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:This seems like an incredibly narrow definition of appropriation. well at least now someone's saying the defintion is too narrow rather than too broad Powercrazy posted:The people who are concerned with cultural appropriation. You and the OP for example. White People Feeling Directly Criticized By Discussion Of A Thing: The Thread please never stop being intensely defensive at the slightest suggestion of introspection, white people boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 20:31
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Rodatose posted:Is there a difference between the ideas of transculturation and cultural appropriation besides one having a neutral and the other having a negative connotation due to power imbalance? That's exactly it. Transculturation or cultural diffusion is sharing of culture, appropriation is the taking of culture by using an object or symbol incorrectly in such a way that it is harmful to the original, sincere meaning. I know metalheads who are actually angry that Babymetal is a thing. They are upset about cultural appropriation. e: I disagree with them, I'm just using them as an example of people who have an identity based on some cultural thing who feel threatened when someone else uses that thing in an 'inappropriate' manner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIKqgE4BwAY boner confessor fucked around with this message at 20:42 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 20:37
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unlimited shrimp posted:Maybe it has to do with being scapegoated on an individual level for being the unwitting beneficiaries of structural problems. if you feel scapegoated by discussion that does not mention you as an individual in any way thats on you, friend or should i slap a big old trigger warning on these posts so you don't feel offended by generalized discussion of societal trends
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Mar 25, 2015 21:08
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Oh cool and now we're complaining about tone arguments. This thread is like a lexicon of lovely argumentation on behalf of people who can't help but be perpetually offended for some dumb reason or another. WARNING: Do NOT read this thread if you are a hypersensitive white person who thinks any discussion of racism in general applies to you, specifically.
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Mar 25, 2015 21:25
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OwlFancier posted:"It's not my fault if you get offended by blanket insults directed at your ethnicity" is an interesting line that I will have to try next time I feel like complaining about black people. Because obviously it wasn't directed at you particularly. Why Can't I Use The N Word: The Musical also why do you think general discussion of racism or cultural appropriation is a 'blanket insult directed at your ethnicity' you've got problems, hoss
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Mar 25, 2015 21:43
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