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I'm having trouble making any distinction between a white woman wearing a sari and a white woman eating a samosa. Is the latter cultural appropriation? What about using chopsticks or a neti pot? Yoga? Meditation? Surfing?
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Mar 24, 2015 17:56
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I'm relieved that I can now carelessly toss around racial slurs since they have a smaller impact on people of color than global warming. There might be an argument for cultural appropriation, but this is not it.
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Mar 24, 2015 20:13
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Effectronica posted:Because their ability to say that "this is the meaning of this" in relation to their culture is destroyed. There's always the appropriated stuff with its meanings, itself more powerful than anything the tribe can do. If "spirit animals" are thought of as New Age bullshit, then Native religion becomes bullshit as well, because young people attempting to become part of the religion will still have the New Age nonsense in the back of their heads. If young native people decide that spirit animals are bullshit because white people appropriated them, perhaps they are right and those white people have actually helped them. What right do older native people have to indoctrinate their youth without interference?
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Mar 25, 2015 17:37
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Effectronica posted:Extermination of religion should be equitable. I'll consider your post when Christianity is considered as contemptible as belief in katsinas.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:50
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Effectronica posted:Okay, so we've got both of you under "bitter New Atheist", would you like to provide any more identifying information? Actually you suggested that people should be able to define the cultural identity of their children with minimal interference. Is Marx culturally destructive because his work encourages people to reject religion? Yes, and his work is all the better for it because some elements of culture should be destroyed.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:08
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What's worse, appropriating an oppressed person's culture so that others outside that culture mis perceive it, or convincing an oppressed person that their culture is toxic and should be radically changed? Say what you will about Katy perry, at least she didn't foment the cultural revolution.
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Mar 25, 2015 18:53
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Zeitgueist posted:Whats worse, Katy Perry, or gassing the jews? I'll hang up for my answer thanks and god bless. Yes, the implication was that if cultural appropriation via commodification is bad, then cultural self-destruction via Marxism is much worse.
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Mar 25, 2015 19:12
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Aren't some people arguing that oppressed people should have exclusivity of expression IRT their cultural referents? (Whether enforced by government or social norms)
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Mar 27, 2015 22:52
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Is an acceptable definition of cultural appropriation "infringement on the expressive exclusivity of oppressed people over their cultural referents"?
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Mar 27, 2015 23:14
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I was hoping for a more concise definition but thanks for the wiki paragraphs. blackguy32 posted:I would take out the exclusive part and and something about usage of a ritual or artifact outside of its cultural context. Definition should include things like names, dialects, vocabulary. The black women accusing gay men of cultural appropriation are saying "stop using our style of speech and mannerisms, they aren't yours" which implies exclusivity is a critical part of the definition.
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Mar 27, 2015 23:36
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7c Nickel posted:Thanks for telling minorities where their priorities should really lie. This is totally advice they've never gotten before. Karlmarx.txt
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Mar 28, 2015 21:56
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Popular Thug Drink posted:Haha people get thier panties so twisted about SJWs they start questioning the tenets of democracy, nice Cultures don't have elected leaders, or leaders at all. Take this for example. http://www.wildhorsepassresort.com/culture posted:The Sheraton Wild Horse Pass Resort & Spa is devoted to Cultural Sustainability. The property is owned by the Pima and Maricopa Tribes that comprise the Gila River Indian Community and their culture and heritage is woven into every aspect of the resort, offering an authentic and tangible cultural experience for guests and visitors. The Pima and Maricopa tribes opened a luxury hotel in south Phoenix, commodifying their own culture to sell to non-native tourists. Does it matter that a majority (or at least a majority of the powerful) in the tribe did this voluntarily? If a minority in the tribe considered this appropriation that was destroying their culture, would their opinion make it so?
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Mar 29, 2015 01:24
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Zeitgueist posted:No, there's been a lot of concern troll whining about whether listening k-pop or eating Pei Wei is appropriation, in an attempt to water the discussion down so that white folks can feel good about themselves, but the complexity of the subject(my goodness, a discussion of racism that doesn't deal with simple hate speech and lynchings!) doesn't make the term useless. I'm happy to repost the question you ignored earlier in the thread. Popular Thug Drink posted:Haha people get thier panties so twisted about SJWs they start questioning the tenets of democracy, nice Cultures don't have elected leaders, or leaders at all. Take this for example. http://www.wildhorsepassresort.com/culture posted:The Sheraton Wild Horse Pass Resort & Spa is devoted to Cultural Sustainability. The property is owned by the Pima and Maricopa Tribes that comprise the Gila River Indian Community and their culture and heritage is woven into every aspect of the resort, offering an authentic and tangible cultural experience for guests and visitors. The Pima and Maricopa tribes opened a luxury hotel in south Phoenix, commodifying their own culture to sell to non-native tourists. Does it matter that a majority (or at least a majority of the powerful) in the tribe did this voluntarily? If a minority in the tribe considered this appropriation that was destroying their culture, would their opinion make it so?
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Mar 31, 2015 01:24
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So I can wear a Sari as long as I buy it from an Indian? My hanzi tat is totally legit if the artist is chinese?Zeitgueist posted:Cultural appropriation is an example of exploitation by an oppressive dominant culture of a less powerful, marginalized, minority culture. Yes but cultures are not monoliths. Some people in a culture might be willing to make money by commoditizing that culture, even while a majority of that culture believes their actions are, or lead to, appropriation. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 01:47
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blackguy32 posted:You can wear a Sari anytime you want. No one is stopping you. So I can wear a sari without offending some Indian people by appropriating their culture as long as I buy it from an Indian?
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Mar 31, 2015 01:52
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Effectronica posted:Do you understand that treating "Natives building a hotel" as identical to "a white guy wearing a sari" is incredibly stupid to anyone without your weird grudge against liberalism. I don't have a grudge against liberalism. Maybe pull back on the shitposting for a hour or so and let yourself calm down? I'm not comparing natives building a hotel to a white guy wearing a sari, I'm comparing natives building a hotel to Indians selling saris, and implicitly non natives staying at the hotel to non Indians wearing saris. "You can't appropriate your own culture" seems like a very problematic statement that you cannot apply consistently. JeffersonClay fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Mar 31, 2015 |
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Mar 31, 2015 02:05
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Zeitgueist posted:Then that's up to them, the cultural appropriation folks in this thread are generally talking about is one of an oppressing group to an oppressed. The commoditization we're talking about here is explicitly for the purpose of selling that culture to outsiders. If a non-native staying at a native-culture-themed hotel is appropriation, then the natives renting the rooms must be part of that appropriation. If non-Indians wearing saris is appropriation, the Indians selling them those saris must also be engaged in appropriation.
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Mar 31, 2015 02:14
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Effectronica posted:Why? Can you steal money from yourself? This is a terrible analogy because individual people don't own a culture. Is it possible for me to appropriate cultural elements that I share with many others for my personal gain at their expense? Absolutely.
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Mar 31, 2015 02:16
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Effectronica posted:What if the appropriation was in wearing the sari, and specifically how you wore it, not buying it? Because that's what the thing in the OP is about, you know. It is really weird having a conversation with marxists and democratic socialists and having to convince them that the producers of commodities are responsible for the social consequences of that production.
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Mar 31, 2015 02:23
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Effectronica posted:Oh, okay, you're too dumb to communicate with. The blog in the OP is about the context of how the item is worn, which cannot be controlled by the person who sells it (who is in turn not necessarily the producer, either, you loving moron). Sorry. It's actually up to you to not be a cock, hard as it may be. You should really consider taking that shitposting hiatus. Badger of Basra posted:Would you like all Indians to write you a personal letter saying they promise not to be offended? Try reading my comment in the context of the thread. I'm responding to the statement "you cannot appropriate your own culture".
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Mar 31, 2015 02:40
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Exclamation Marx posted:It's theft of their intellectual property Exclamation Marx posted:But as Obdicut said, there aren't usually any issues if you just ask for permission. If Maori tattoos are the collective intellectual property of all living Maori, the permission of one or a few Maori doesn't give you the right to steal the intellectual property of the rest, right?
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Apr 1, 2015 00:27
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Gantolandon posted:What kind of martyrdom posting on comedy forums might entail? While this sentence might sound weird to a native English speaker it is perfectly grammatically correct. Effectronica is just a moron. http://grammar.about.com/od/fh/g/frontingterm.htm
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Apr 3, 2015 01:06
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Reading through the Declaration of War, all of the WHEREAS statements boil down to "We are very offended by the manner in which some are using our sacred symbols", except this one:quote:WHEREAS the absurd public posturing of this scandalous assortment of psuedo-Indian charlatans, "wannabes," commercial profiteers, cultists and "New Age shamans" comprises a momentous obstacle in the struggle of traditional Lakota people for an adequate public appraisal of the legitimate political, legal and spiritual needs of real Lakota people Which seems most directly to be appropriation. The concern doesn't seem to be that appropriation literally destroys authentic Lakota spirituality, but that appropriation negatively influences public perceptions of the Lakota. Is opposition to cultural appropriation rooted in a desire to control public perceptions of a minority group by that group? Further down, more complexity: quote:4. We especially urge all our Lakota, Dakota, and Nakota people to take action to prevent our own people from contributing to and enabling the abuse of our sacred ceremonies and spiritual practices by outsiders; for, as we all know, there are certain ones among our own people who are prostituting our spiritual ways for their own selfish gain, with no regard for the spiritual well-being of the people as a whole. It seems like the Lakota believe you can, in fact, appropriate your own culture. How, then, do we differentiate between spiritual prostitutes and true believers?
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Apr 16, 2015 02:03
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American Chinese food is a distinct style of cuisine that was developed by Chinese immigrants to appeal to American consumers. PF Changs is authentic American Chinese food. I don't think the existence of Ameicsn Chinese food confuses anyone with any experience with actual Chinese food. It wasn't some culinary norm imposed by white society, it was invented by Chinese to appeal to an American palate.
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Apr 17, 2015 16:51
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Effectronica posted:So would it kill you to read what people actually wrote? Like, imagine someone is holding an intermediate sociology textbook to your head and demands that you read something and repeat it back to them. Do you melt like the Wicked Witch of the West? You wrote: quote:The victims are people whose restaurants are considered inauthentic and unworthy, because although people are not bound to put a premium on "authenticity", they still do so. They are the people who are having what their cuisine actually is dictated to them from outside. Which is totally wrong; American Chinese food was created by Chinese immigrants. Nobody dictated to them what authentic Chinese food should be--they chose to modify actual Chinese cuisine to appeal to American consumers. Imagine someone is holding your own posts up to your head and demands that you repeat them back. Do you just drop another shitpost?
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Apr 17, 2015 17:18
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Effectronica posted:I'm describing something that is happening now, not something that happened about 150 years ago, you beetle of a man. What was happening 150 years ago: Chinese people adapting traditional Chinese recipes to appeal to the American palate. What is happening now: Chinese people adapting traditional Chinese recipes to appeal to the American palate. What is never happening: Chinese people being forced to abandon culinary traditions due to food criticism. Do you think Americans would be wolfing down thousand year eggs if not for the San fransisco chronicle's gushing reviews of chop suey in 1865?
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Apr 17, 2015 17:57
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if there's a consistent definition of cultural appropriation, I'm still waiting to see it. I think to most people using the term, cultural appropriation means cultural exchange that makes me feel icky. Which is fine, not all cultural exchange is mutually beneficial, and calling those situations appropriation makes as much sense as any other term.
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Apr 18, 2015 02:58
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I have no problem with defining racism as (racial) prejudice + power. I have no problem defining sexism as gender prejudice + power. I recognize not everyone accepts those definitions, but I can reasonably apply the definition to every possible human behavior I would consider racism or sexism without difficulty. I can't define cultural appropriation. It sounds like a pretty accurate description of some dude pretending to be a native Shaman and selling bullshit to rubes. He has literally stolen their cultural identity and twisted it for his own profit. This seems fundamentally different from every other example I've seen. If PF Chang fraudulently claimed to have traditional culinary knowledge and technique from China, I could see a commonality.
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Apr 18, 2015 03:37
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Cultural appropriation: the fraudulent adaptation of the cultural identity of an oppressed person for profit. Thoughts?
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Apr 18, 2015 03:55
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blackguy32 posted:But it doesn't have to be just profit though. Simply using something outside of it's cultural context or without permission can be considered as appropriation. No those things shouldn't be considered cultural appropriation because it's not fraudulent. TheImmigrant posted:Bullshit. Who defines 'oppressed person'? poo poo, I'm a Sephardi Jew oppressed by DirkaDirka types here (look at my bannage), so respect me or else antisemitism. Then again, you could indict me for having stolen Moroccan traditions, because I speak Darija with my grandparents. yawn
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Apr 18, 2015 04:44
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VitalSigns posted:Take: dressing up like a Lakota shaman at a costume party. The person doing it might say "Well how is this hurting anyone. I'm showing how much I respect their culture by choosing to dress as a shaman, they should see it as an honor. Why are you giving me a hard time: if I dressed as a Catholic priest, you wouldn't say anything. How is this any different?" How might you explain to your friend why he shouldn't do this...or do you think it's fine and he should. Halloween costumes are inherently mocking. Punch up not down.
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Apr 19, 2015 19:14
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Yes I'm sure the hypothetical friend you're portreying would have an eminently reasonable response to the concept of cultural appropriation, as well. You asked how we could distinguish between an offensive native costume and an inoffensive catholic costume without the concept of cultural appropriation. I have shown it is trivial.
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Apr 19, 2015 19:31
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VitalSigns posted:But you haven't explained why a costume is inherently mocking if I'm intending to honor the Lakota by wearing it, and I'm not acting silly or wearing outrageous Hollywood exaggerations. You just asserted it, and someone who doesn't already agree isn't going to be convinced by that. Liberalism assumes that if legal inequalities are removed then there's no more oppression, because the only way people can be oppressed is with force. Someone wearing identical clothes who isn't acting silly or pointing and laughing or making jokes at your expense doesn't appear to be doing any harm as far as liberalism is concerned. Yeah it doesn't mean the same thing at a party as at a religious service, but the liberals itt have been adamant that no one should expect a monopoly on meaning, and outsiders wearing their clothes with a different meaning isn't taking anything away from them. So what's the problem? Placing an authentic native shaman costume in the same milleau as sexy vampire and legolas is inherently mocking, whatever the intent. If I saw a Native American wearing traditional garb to a Halloween party I would wonder if they were aware they were engaging in self-mockery.
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Apr 19, 2015 20:30
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An important distinction between the Lakota and white supremacists is the latter are in no actual danger of having their culture, language and religion lost forever. "We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children" is necessarily a front for white supremacy and segregation because white culture is not under threat of extinction. That's not true of the Lakota. If cultural diversity is a public good, a pragmatic case can be made for purposefully avoiding actions which would have the effect of diluting the cultural uniqueness of minority cultures. On the other hand, if the extinction of a minority culture is inevitable, appropriation might be the only way elements of that culture survive.
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Apr 27, 2015 16:49
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wateroverfire posted:So if we posit there's a sort of value in preserving minority cultures as something exotic and separate? But then haven't we committed ourselves to fetishizing minority cultures (as exotic, more desirable than our own however we define that) and isn't that what leads to appropriation in the first place? We needent conceive of minority cultures as exotic or superior to assign value to their existence. As an analogy, California condors aren't superior to other birds, and they aren't exotic, but their extinction and replacement by other species would not be a good or ambivalent change.
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Apr 27, 2015 20:04
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