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black potus posted:the second is that there is a nonzero chance that your opponent doesn't have removal, especially as the game goes long (or that you can deal with the removal). there are a lot of creatures that saw play (and see play) without gaining value ETB or being tempo neutral/low in tempo loss compared to removal (or tempo advantageous even) because if your opponent doesn't have removal that turn, you'll gain value. in my head the canonical example is baneslayer angel. does nothing until you untap, but when you untap with it you're in a commanding position. that one can be slippery to evaluate and is somewhat meta dependent, but it's something to consider when talking about whether stuff dies to removal. I actually can't think of a ton that fit this. Baneslayer yes, but Baneslayer is such an enormously powerful card against aggressive strategies that it's able to get around being an unprotected 5 drop that doesn't protect itself. In the 6 or so years, the line seems to be around 4.5 mana. 4 drops that are enormously efficient can get see even if they don't protect themselves or provide instant value(for example, Polukranos or Hero of Bladehold), but for 5+ the only one I can think of offhand that doesn't is Baneslayer, and even Baneslayer was meta dependent.
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Mar 25, 2015 16:43
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can we not talk about price in this thread, the stuff gang sines is mentioning is much more interesting
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Mar 25, 2015 16:47
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LordSaturn posted:Price used to be a pretty good way to talk about the valuation of a card in standard - the classic parable was what happened to Baneslayer Angel's cash value when the Titans were printed. I still remember my friend refusing to play the one he opened in his sealed pool. (Casual event, no sleeves - he was allowed to use a proxy.) Thing is, price told you whether a card is good, not why. This thread is supposed to be more about the why, I think. Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:
Synergy is an important piece of evaluating cards as well, but it's much harder than evaluating cards on their own. It's extremely hard to tell whether all the synergies combine to be powerful enough or whether the card is going to be Knight Exemplar. If I had to try, I would say it depends on how powerful and numerous the synergies are and how much you have to sacrifice to get them to work, but that's incredibly wishy-washy and hard to nail down. Elyv fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Mar 25, 2015 |
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Mar 25, 2015 17:07
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Serperoth posted:Price is good and all, but there's other factors in the price. Candelabra is triple digits, and I don't think it's used anywhere other than High Tide (correct me if I'm wrong though, I didn't look into it). Oh absolutely, but if you look up the quote chain the stuff about price specifically refers to Standard, where cost is largely determined by the distribution of good cards in the set(if there's very few, that stuff is going to be more expensive since otherwise it becomes positive ev to just start cracking packs). Anyway, let's try to take the cost stuff out of this thread; it can be interesting too, but I feel like it's not the point here.
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Mar 25, 2015 17:18
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At the very least you're missing the legendary cycle from Legends(Tolaria, Urborg, Hammerheim, Karakas, whatever the green one was), and champions(Eiganjo, Minamo, Shizo, Shinka, Okina) Edit: Also if you're separating the ons cycling lands from the urza's cycling lands there's more justification to do that with the wwk manlands vs the ul manlands Elyv fucked around with this message at 18:02 on Jun 11, 2015 |
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Jun 11, 2015 17:54
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Serperoth posted:Those two are mostly for their secondary abilities, rather than any kind of fixing. And yeah, you're right about the cycling lands. Might as well just move the Sandbar picture, thanks. Sure, but you also have stuff like cycling or artifact lands which don't provide any fixing. By the way you're overestimating Odyssey filter lands by quite a bit, the fact that they didn't tap for mana on their own was a huge deal since sometimes you would open a hand with 2 of them and just want to kill yourself. Like, if you look at one of the dominant decks of the time, it only played one of those filter lands. Also you missed the future sight cycles(if you only want duals, Graven Cairns/Grove of the Burnwillows/Horizon Canopy/Nimbus Maze/River of Tears, if you also want lands that tap for a single color, New Benalia/Llanowar Reborn/Dakmor Salvage/Keldon Megaliths/Tolaria West)
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Jun 11, 2015 18:05
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