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FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Cmdr. Shepard posted:

The multi-jurisdictional SWAT teams in my area train more often than any other unit I'm aware of. The problem though is that if you talk to D&D, they have this idea of some mythical level of training and qualifications that can't be met because there is not infinity money and the applicant pool isn't going to get any better than it already is without substantially raising salaries, and even then it might not change much. PD's are having a tough time as it is recruiting qualified applicants, and you'd be surprised that qualified applicant and level of education aren't necessarily related to eachother.

The problem that is often cited as "lack of training" is actually more of "inappropriate training methods". Civil police should not be trained into thinking that they are junior Delta Force on a kill-everything and save the world mission. No knock murder raids at the wrong address are signs that there are extreme problems with the nature and use of the "training". That is one of the things that society wants from civil police, and differentiates them from a hostile military force.

Kiryen posted:

So, they dress it up with comments like "well, the police should be trained to take away knives without shooting people."

Yes. A group of (theoretically) trained adults working together using real-time radio communications should be able to take a knife away from a single individual without using guns. In the theoretical circumstance where an officer is alone in an alleyway (with firearm already in hand), no escape route, and gets charged by a person with a knife then of course using the firearm in actual self defense makes perfect sense.

Smiling Jack posted:

I eagerly await your anecdote about cops shooting someone with a knife in dubious circumstances.

When the world is now full of youtube videos plainly demonstrating this, you might call it "evidence" under circumstances you liked better, rather than "anecdote".

Kiryen posted:

Does the person have the means, opportunity, and intent to inflict bodily harm and how severely?

(Almost) every living individual can be defined as having "means and opportunity", and "intent" is often defined by the officer involved in the incident. This is a problem for society at the moment.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 21:57

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 15:47

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Cmdr. Shepard posted:

How do we disarm a person with a knife who refuses to drop it or give it up and charges officers?

Given the ability to employ communications and teamwork, the (theoretical) lone knife wielder would be extremely susceptible to being sucker-tazed/beanbagged/tackled from another officer while they are raving/raving/whatever at the officer occupying their attention. This is (minus the tazing/beanbags) what we were forced to do at the psych facility when an agitated resident was threatening (with or without some manner of makeshift weapon in hand).

It requires more thought, and a cooler head, but is definitely feasible.

In the theoretical case where the officer is (actually) cornered then of course things change. (Assuming they have a firearm in hand - unless something has changed I believe that the standing advice is "dont try to draw against a combatant that rushes you within xx feet - the fact that this is (was?) the rule means that there is already an awareness that non-firearm means of defense must exist for an individual officer to feel comfortable/trained 'on the street'.)

Part of this requires a shift in mindset from "Us vs 'the civilians'", and towards the mindset of "we have this job to help people, including the troubled people". Changing the current generations mindset is probably the largest hurdle to all of these problems.

In a related (but separate) note - the fact that this is true: http://time.com/3637967/police-officers-fattest-profession-study/ shows that the current generation(s) of LEOs cant do the jobs that the public wants them to do. The go-to solution will remain "be scared and shoot" until the state of the officers changes. Fit, strong, confident people do not go through their days as scared and reactionary as obese, agitated, and sick people do.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 22:13

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Cmdr. Shepard posted:

What are your qualifications to make such a statement?

Oh. Nevermind.

"Youre not one of us."

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 22:14

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Smiling Jack posted:

I have participated in removing dozens of mentally ill and armed individuals for psychiatric evaluation and I've never shot any of them

Thats excellent, and not at all part of the problem issues that come up.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 22:36

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Smiling Jack posted:

So what's your point?

Taking your collection of anecdotes as true - that shows that it is possible to detain people without things like this happening:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFZIsKaIFCs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0v213GCEkc

You seem to think Im ruining the thread, so Ill stop, but these things should not be happening. If you manage to restrain troubled people without gunning them down then you are an example of what the public wants.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 22:52

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Kiryen posted:

Stuff

I agree with the intention/direction of a lot of what you said - and the things I would disagree (or adjust/ add to) I will save for some other thread.

# ¿ Apr 5, 2015 00:27

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# ¿ May 13, 2024 15:47

FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

Captain Bravo posted:

So what are ya'lls opinion of reporters? Do you encounter many on the job?

In general reporters are LEOs best friends. (Even though they deny it.)

I was stuck doing a word-by-word textual analysis looking for bias applying veracity/authority by phrasing in professional printed news pieces involving alleged crimes. No shock at all that the LEOs were always "stating facts", "recounting the incident", and "experts" while whoever they were targeting was "the alleged criminal" or "making a claim that..." etc...

edit - I suspect the playing field may have shifted a bit in just the last couple years though.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2015 00:26

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