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Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Ferrinus posted:

To what extent is it even possible to hit 10 by accident? I don't think I "get" why having too much Satiety is supposed to be a bad thing. Does your astral form just pass out groaning on the astral couch in an astral food coma, or something?

Your Soul basically goes to sleep with a big fat Thanksgiving grin and won't wake up for a while. You can't lose Satiety once completely sated, either - the only listed triggers to get out of it are to be beaten near to death, to have a supernatural critter get an exceptional success on a power usage on you or to land the deathblow on a Hero. All of those drop you down to 9.

It is possible to hit 10 by accident with...I want to say use of two or so specific Nightmares. (Each, not in conjunction.) Even then, it would be very hard unless you just weren't paying attention at all.

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gtrmp
Sep 29, 2008

Oba-Ma... Oba-Ma! Oba-Ma, aasha deh!
What I'm taking away from all this is that Beast comes across like Otherkin: The Tumblring on actually reading how the Beasts and their Hunters are presented in the text itself.

I guess nWoD had to do a spiritual sequel to CtD eventually...

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Gerund posted:

Isn't the point of the "I'm a horrible monster"-game to turn into a regular human being? If even for a day, getting to do just regular stuff is the thing of grand crusades for most other splats.

The book is quite clear - Beasts enjoy what they are. It feels good to sate your Hunger. And almost all of the listed Beast character snippets are of completely awful people who love every second of it.

Tulul
Oct 23, 2013

THAT SOUND WILL FOLLOW ME TO HELL.
The Hero stuff sounds, uh, kind of bad, but I don't think I can say anything there that others haven't.

How's the crossover stuff looking? That's one of the things about Beast that I've been kind of curious/skeptical about, because there are some fairly large tonal differences between the various nWoD games.

Dammit Who?
Aug 30, 2002

may microbes, bacilli their tissues infest
and tapeworms securely their bowels digest

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Tulul posted:

The Hero stuff sounds, uh, kind of bad, but I don't think I can say anything there that others haven't.

How's the crossover stuff looking? That's one of the things about Beast that I've been kind of curious/skeptical about, because there are some fairly large tonal differences between the various nWoD games.

The Nightmares based on other splats are generally neat. Beasts have...well, a lot of inherent powers, one of which is the power to point at other supernaturals and go 'here, have a bucket of dice to boost your power usage.' They like to stalk other monsters and watch them eat. For some reason that makes no sense whatsoever they hate Demons. I can't tell you why, it is dumb. They seem like they'd do crossover stuff decently enough, really, if you found a way to make Atavisms stop stealing the spotlight.

And didn't do a Demon crossover.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
If you think about it, Beast is kind of like a malefic curse cast at all World of Darkness players in general, because now whenever anyone tries to run a non-Demon game at least one person is going to be like "hey can I play a Beast instead? And hang out with the PCs? They're crossover friendlyyyyy~"

Question, how do Beasts generally interact? Do they prey on each other or compete for food? Do they have any natural predators or enemies besides Heroes (and their non-Hero victims)?

Attorney at Funk
Jun 3, 2008

...the person who says honestly that he despairs is closer to being cured than all those who are not regarded as despairing by themselves or others.

Crion
Sep 30, 2004
baseball.
This is actually a decent litmus test for new members to your table: do they want to play a Beast? Yes? Tell them you're full up.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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They actually tend to hang out. A Beast's particular hungers tend to be rather specific, so competition is rare - rather, they tend to be good at providing each other with meals. Like, a dude who eats the corruption of clergy teams up with a dude who eats the punishment of vow-breaking clergy. Yes, it's totally hypocritical - they're fine with it. Another team pair is a dude who steals stuff to hide in a lake, which he then spread rumors about so that the other dude can punish people for trying to take it. Beasts can actually connect their Lairs together to gain limited access to each others' Lair traits.

Their natural enemies are 'anyone who objects to what they are doing', Demons for some totally dumb and nonsensical reason, and vampires who get creeped out by being stalked and stared at. Changelings also tend to get mad if and when the Beasts decide to mention that they think the True Fae are pretty neat.

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."
If I had to guess I'd say Unchained are exempt so that the overarching Dark Mother mythos can stay separate from the overarching God-Machine mythos.

Also demons are all about not being spotted as demons so they don't play nice with the "happy monster family" motif.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Well... what's the actual, given reason for Beast/Demon antagonism? Can you quote it?

It doesn't seem like it's totally backwards or stupid - the God Machine's pretty far, conceptually, from humanity's ancient fears of monsters. Then again, I don't see why there'd be antagonism rather than confusion... and even though the modern capitalist hegemony is a monster we've made for ourselves, it's certainly still capable of causing large-scale ruin, dominating people brutally, etc. It seems like even if Demons are totally alien to Beasts they'd still be potentially useful.

Crion
Sep 30, 2004
baseball.
Beasts sound like a much better mid-tier Changeling antagonist than what we've heard of Huntsmen so far. They certainly don't sound much like PCs, outside of there for some reason being rules to play them.

Effectronica
May 31, 2011
Fallen Rib
How well could you play a gorgon, in Beast as it stands?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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quote:

The Unchained are extraordinarily secretive and seem to hold the Children in contempt. Encounters frequently terminate in violence and vicious rivalry, especially if the Beast sees through the demon's human facade. What stories of the God-Machine Beasts have pieced together lead them to believe demons are something new: industrial age monsters masquerading as divinity. Whatever they are, they are not kin.

Because, y'know, Beasts can never have industrial or technological themes. (Ignore the ones that do, please.)

When a Beast and Demon meet, if the Demon can't spoof the Beast's monster sense, they have a Clash of Wills. The Beast, if it wins, gives the Demon Shaken. The Demon, if it wins, gives the Beast Leveraged and senses some important personal info about the Beast. If they tie, they both get Spooked. Also, Demons can't get any of the benefits Beasts can give to other supernaturals, and Beasts can't enter Pacts, ever, period.

quote:

Exactly why the Begotten and the Unchained are so viciously at odds is a matter of conjecture - demons don't seem interested in discussing it on those rare occasions they can be located without bloodshed, and if the Dark Mother knows, she hasn't shared it with her children.

(No, Demons have no idea either.)

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Effectronica posted:

How well could you play a gorgon, in Beast as it stands?

Quite well, actually, there's a power that poisons people and, if they die, can turn them to salt/stone. There's also an entire Family based around being monstrously hideous, either appearance-wise or internally, to shock people into silence and fear.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012

Mors Rattus posted:

Because, y'know, Beasts can never have industrial or technological themes. (Ignore the ones that do, please.)

When a Beast and Demon meet, if the Demon can't spoof the Beast's monster sense, they have a Clash of Wills. The Beast, if it wins, gives the Demon Shaken. The Demon, if it wins, gives the Beast Leveraged and senses some important personal info about the Beast. If they tie, they both get Spooked. Also, Demons can't get any of the benefits Beasts can give to other supernaturals, and Beasts can't enter Pacts, ever, period.


(No, Demons have no idea either.)

Cool, but also kinda dumb. If Beasts were to also be a universal antagonist, that'd be a nifty thing for their docket. But for a splat that's said to "play well with others" that one exception needs more explanation than meta reasons or because.

How's rpg.net taking Beast btw? Better or worse than here?

Crion
Sep 30, 2004
baseball.
Considering this is a leak of some sort, I assume they're busily pretending it doesn't exist.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Beasts and Demons not getting along works well thematically, I think. Of course, it would intrigue me more if I liked Beast more to start.

I wouldn't be surprised if you weren't allowed to discuss the Beast leak over there same as you can't discuss the Exalted leak.

Effectronica
May 31, 2011
Fallen Rib

Mors Rattus posted:

Quite well, actually, there's a power that poisons people and, if they die, can turn them to salt/stone. There's also an entire Family based around being monstrously hideous, either appearance-wise or internally, to shock people into silence and fear.

Cool, my main goal for Beast: The Unhinged Psychopathing was to be able to replicate the ending of Man of Steel only with hot snake-haired people, so as long as I make sure the villain has no idea how to play sports, this should be good and fine.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
Man of Steel was about a platoon of Adamantine Arrows invading a Supernal Realm that had already been claimed by a freshly-minted Exarch. Think about it.

Attorney at Funk
Jun 3, 2008

...the person who says honestly that he despairs is closer to being cured than all those who are not regarded as despairing by themselves or others.

Effectronica posted:

Cool, my main goal for Beast: The Unhinged Psychopathing was to be able to replicate the ending of Man of Steel only with hot snake-haired people, so as long as I make sure the villain has no idea how to play sports, this should be good and fine.

I really appreciate this post.

Daeren
Aug 18, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Mors Rattus posted:

Look at the fervor with which people will argue about whatever topic on the internet, from comic book movies, to gender, to space cowboys, to vaccines, to ethics in video game journalism, whatever.

I want to know who wrote this so they can go sit in the shame corner and think about what they've done. There's touching the poop, and then there's rolling around in the poop while making GBS threads your pants and daring people to call you on it.

And now I touch the poop myself and risk the inevitable derail because I spent ten minutes after reading that trying to parse its ramifications.

Gamergate is, and was, a loving stupid and terrible thing. I think most of us in here can agree with that as a broad statement. Gamergater types did horrible poo poo to other people over incredibly petty reasons of identity politics, yes. Despite the people who came in suckered by the, well, "ethics in game journalism" argument, it was by and large a hate movement that did and said terrible things and used other people as a buffer against indictment, at least after a point. If you want to paint an entire group as a pack of childish, spiteful malcontents, you could do worse than invoking their name.

AND YET.

Mors Rattus posted:

A Beast's particular hungers tend to be rather specific, so competition is rare - rather, they tend to be good at providing each other with meals. Like, a dude who eats the corruption of clergy teams up with a dude who eats the punishment of vow-breaking clergy. Yes, it's totally hypocritical - they're fine with it. [...]

Their natural enemies are 'anyone who objects to what they are doing' [...] Changelings also tend to get mad if and when the Beasts decide to mention that they think the True Fae are pretty neat.

Crion posted:

Beasts sound like a much better mid-tier Changeling antagonist than what we've heard of Huntsmen so far. They certainly don't sound much like PCs, outside of there for some reason being rules to play them.


Mors Rattus posted:

The book is quite clear - Beasts enjoy what they are. It feels good to sate your Hunger. And almost all of the listed Beast character snippets are of completely awful people who love every second of it.

Dammit Who? posted:

Mors Rattus posted:

Beasts are hyperfocused on causing terror and fear. They are hunters - an Ogre, Beast or Darkling doesn't have to make waves. They're changed by where they were, but the Beasts are much closer to Keepers than to Changelings in outlook and demeanor. Beasts are pretty much universally terrible people, people that exist to hurt others. At best, you get a Beast who focuses their desire to hurt or dominate on 'deserving' targets, but the book is very clear that the hunger itself doesn't give two shits about 'deserving.'

Mors Rattus posted:

Heroes should be these people. They need rationales that make sense within their contexts, and those rationales need to be sufficiently strong, reactionary, and ingrained in their very identities that they’re unwilling to see other alternatives. Heroes believe that whatever a Beast does is a slight against humanity. Since Heroes are part of humanity, they see everything a Beast does as a personal attack, and an affront to their very identity.

What in the ding dong heck is going on here


We come to this. The rest of the book (apparently), the preview stuff mentioned, the tone in general, all suggests beasts are equally wretched motherfuckers. I mean, when you have a Hunger for torturing people to death or forcing them into captivity until you get your sanity back, you've lost any moral high horse. You're a monster by necessity of existing. You've basically lost any reason to look at the basic hero motive of "go kill the monster" and not go "Yeah, that's an eminently reasonable reaction," which leaves the text in the awkward position of needing to constantly undermine heroic motivations and morality. You know what did shades of gray and black really well? Vampire. Hunter. Nobody's gonna say a vampire's a saint, but you can reasonably say that one vampire is a whole lot less of an rear end than another, and Hunter fills like a third of its pagecount subtly/blatantly alluding to He Who Fights Monsters and setting up interesting hypotheticals. Yet, heroes start as a pack of dispossessed, sociopathic milennials obsessed with ruining lives, and beasts are effectively torturing themselves if they aren't a Morality 0 puppy-devouring child-drowning self-obsessed monster, in a far more real way than Vampire's slow degradation of morals from the weight of time and a monstrous society.

At this point, we reach the deadliest words a writer can hear: "Why should I care about these people?"

gently caress them. gently caress both sides, let them die, burn it down, hail Satan. They're both morally bankrupt, there's little to no room for nuance on either side. Beasts are, from all accounts, being set up to be woe-is-me hypocrites who justify doing terrible things because gently caress you, I'm the only thing that matters, how dare you tell me what I can't do. Heroes have to have the writing conspire against them to make them anything but the more sympathetic party and that isn't going to sit well with a lot of people.

And then you remember they're invoking Gamergate as the boogeyman, as Heroes. The thing that any right-thinking, morally upright protagonist should naturally be repulsed by.

By the transitive property of heroes and beasts as a dynamic, they're immediately implying that feminists, women, social progressives, and everybody else on the other side of the fence are all hypocrites, soul-shattering, nightmare-eating, sociopathic, gleeful, hedonistic monsters who happily enjoy being evil as hell. And that Gamergate wouldn't have existed without feminists egging them on by...doing progressive things? NOT doing progressive things!? Existing!?

loving...come on. NOBODY WINS BY SETTING UP THIS DICHOTOMY. Did whoever wrote the heroes section just...forget to think about the ramifications of using analogy? Is this secretly a design document taken out of a time capsule circa 1993?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Oh right, one other tidbit - a Beast can force their way into any Otherworld whatsoever, with the sole exception of a Demon's Bolthole.

But anywhere else - Astral, Underworld, Shadow - as long as they can find a door, they can force it open. (They have no innate ability to sense gateways, though, so that's a bit of a challenge.)

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Xelkelvos posted:

Cool, but also kinda dumb. If Beasts were to also be a universal antagonist, that'd be a nifty thing for their docket. But for a splat that's said to "play well with others" that one exception needs more explanation than meta reasons or because.

I'm not sure why Demons are getting singled out here, and the "BECAUSE WE SAID SO!" reasons are just perplexing.

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world

Kurieg posted:

I'm not sure why Demons are getting singled out here, and the "BECAUSE WE SAID SO!" reasons are just perplexing.

Demons were never human, and they're manufactured by an impersonal system of control. If we're to allow at all that the various monsters of the World of Darkness are connected on a metaphysical, and not just metaphorical, level, then it makes sense that Demons are the odd never-even-were-men out.

Attorney at Funk
Jun 3, 2008

...the person who says honestly that he despairs is closer to being cured than all those who are not regarded as despairing by themselves or others.
The sneering insistence that Heroes are awful reactionaries makes a lot more sense given that they apparently neglected to make their antagonism compelling on its merits in the first place. When you can re-imagine St. George as a Gamergater, who needs to actually come up with a reason to care about the Dragon?

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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'Never was human, has ceased to be human' is actually the closest level of kinship Beasts have - for everyone except demons. People that are 'human with a little extra' like Mages or psychics are less close than the guys that never were (Prometheans, Werewolves) or the guys that ceased to be human (Vampires, Sin-Eaters).

Also: I should note that 'Heroes act exactly like Beasts that spawn them' is the text - when I was talking about how each Hunger creates a Hero that wants to exact that Hunger on the Beast that formed it, I wasn't wishing. That is the text. I have no idea why they chose to not focus on that fact once they set it up.

E: I should also note that not all methods of fulfilling a Hunger have to be the most horrible poo poo ever. One of my favorite character snippets was a Tyrant, the guys who hunger for domination and control. He's a criminal lawyer, and he tends to pick cases that are against awful people. And he wins them - he just purposefully focuses not on the truth, but on using his superior skill as a lawyer to crush the opposition and force them realize that they are not and never will be as good he is. What a Tyrant hungers for, after all, is that moment when the opposition realizes that they are inferior.

Mors Rattus fucked around with this message at 04:51 on Apr 14, 2015

Daeren
Aug 18, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Mors Rattus posted:

E: I should also note that not all methods of fulfilling a Hunger have to be the most horrible poo poo ever. One of my favorite character snippets was a Tyrant, the guys who hunger for domination and control. He's a criminal lawyer, and he tends to pick cases that are against awful people. And he wins them - he just purposefully focuses not on the truth, but on using his superior skill as a lawyer to crush the opposition and force them realize that they are not and never will be as good he is. What a Tyrant hungers for, after all, is that moment when the opposition realizes that they are inferior.



(okay yeah that's pretty good)

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Collectors are also funny to me because there are two ways a Collector can feed. First, they can get a new piece for their hoard. Paying for it doesn't work, though, unless what they pay is significantly less than the item's value - the point, after all, is to gain, not buy. But the other method is by stopping people who want to take their hoard. So the honey trap is one of the more reliable methods of feeding as a Collector. (There is no actual loss of Satiety for giving a piece away or letting a piece leave - some Collectors collect people, after all - but it bothers the hell out of them. One of the example Collectors is a woman who runs a home for runaways, and her view is that she's collecting them and keeping them safe. She struggles with the desire to keep them and the knowledge that some day, she has to let them go. She solves this dilemma by trying to get newer, better runaways whenever someone leaves.)

Crion
Sep 30, 2004
baseball.
That also sounds like with a couple modifications -- mainly to the jargon -- it could be how a Summer or Autumn Court changeling accrues glamour. A lot of these fringe "well they don't HAVE to be horrible monsters" concepts sound like characters from other lines with their serial numbers filed off, saddled with a bizarre antagonist progression system.

tatankatonk
Nov 4, 2011

Pitching is the art of instilling fear.
Who wins in a legal battle between the Beast lawyer and the Adamantine Arrow lawyer who fights his war in the courtroom?

Kurieg
Jul 19, 2012

RIP Lutri: 5/19/20-4/2/20
:blizz::gamefreak:

Mors Rattus posted:

Collectors are also funny to me because there are two ways a Collector can feed. First, they can get a new piece for their hoard. Paying for it doesn't work, though, unless what they pay is significantly less than the item's value - the point, after all, is to gain, not buy. But the other method is by stopping people who want to take their hoard. So the honey trap is one of the more reliable methods of feeding as a Collector. (There is no actual loss of Satiety for giving a piece away or letting a piece leave - some Collectors collect people, after all - but it bothers the hell out of them. One of the example Collectors is a woman who runs a home for runaways, and her view is that she's collecting them and keeping them safe. She struggles with the desire to keep them and the knowledge that some day, she has to let them go. She solves this dilemma by trying to get newer, better runaways whenever someone leaves.)

I've got this mental image of a game store owner with a single Super Famicom cart of Chrono Trigger that's suspiciously unsecured.

Denim Avenger
Oct 20, 2010

Excelente
If I had to guess, Demons are probably singled out to protect the paranoia that's core to Demon. Demons are fairly undetectable, it can be hard to tell if you're even talking to the same Demon at times as long as they're in Cover, so having Beast be Demon detectors would kinda ruin that I imagine.

Daeren
Aug 18, 2009

YER MUSTACHE IS CROOKED

Denim Avenger posted:

If I had to guess, Demons are probably singled out to protect the paranoia that's core to Demon. Demons are fairly undetectable, it can be hard to tell if you're even talking to the same Demon at times as long as they're in Cover, so having Beast be Demon detectors would kinda ruin that I imagine.

Yeah, I can buy that. Overwhelming paranoia is part of Demon's jam, trust nobody, etc., so having Weird Cousin Vinny the Skeleton come over and start talking shop would be...

actually, wait, why is this something we want to stop?

Crion
Sep 30, 2004
baseball.
I don't think that alone explains it. Changelings are just as paranoid as Demons -- and their Mask roughly as impenetrable, unless that's been nerfed recently -- but Beasts apparently have no problem with them.

Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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Daeren posted:

Yeah, I can buy that. Overwhelming paranoia is part of Demon's jam, trust nobody, etc., so having Weird Cousin Vinny the Skeleton come over and start talking shop would be...

actually, wait, why is this something we want to stop?

Speaking of which, the Open Development post on Lancea et Sanctum miracles is pretty great and Apocalypse is hilarious. Just saying. All the old vampires are now ~*spooky skeletons*~

Ferrinus
Jun 19, 2003

i'm finding this quite easy, i guess in part because i'm a fast type but also because i have a coherent mental model of the world
My friend points out that the most insidious thing about the way Beasts vs. Heroes is currently portrayed isn't just that, as Daeren says, it implies that the victims of reactionary hatred kinda sort of brought it on themselves. It also propagates the idea that it's the conservative reactionaries who are the tough guys and heroes, who are proactive, who really take things into their own hands and exact two-fisted justice. You know, it's not pretty, and it ain't nice, and hell it might be down and out 100% evil and totally unjustifiable, but that makes it no less glamorous!

tatankatonk posted:

Who wins in a legal battle between the Beast lawyer and the Adamantine Arrow lawyer who fights his war in the courtroom?

All I can tell you is that I and every single other poster are going to pretend to be willing to actually devote time and effort to finding out in the course of gameplay!!!

Rand Brittain
Mar 25, 2013

"Go on until you're stopped."

Crion posted:

I don't think that alone explains it. Changelings are just as paranoid as Demons -- and their Mask roughly as impenetrable, unless that's been nerfed recently -- but Beasts apparently have no problem with them.

Changelings don't actually start to melt if people figure out what they are.

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Mors Rattus
Oct 25, 2007

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I do want to emphasize again that not all of Beast is bad. I dislike a lot of the fluff, but I really like the Lair stuff and almost all of the Nightmares are really cool powers. I especially like how Nightmares can halfway function as blessing powers if you're willing to be really backhanded about it. I think there is potential here, and I would love to see it realized.

It would, however, require scrapping quite a lot of the Hero section at the least. (Anathema are cool, though, they can stay. Anathema are the weaknesses that Heroes can "discover" - or, more accurately, cause to pop into existence.)

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