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White Wolf is a flat circle. Everything they've ever done or will do, they're gonna do over and over and over again. And that weird 90s high school poo poo, they're gonna put that in a game again and again and again forever.
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Jun 3, 2015 08:50
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LatwPIAT posted:Being a miserable and hateful person, I'd say that the writing's been on the wall for a while. Rather a lot of OPP's output lately has been heavily influenced by the oWoD thematically, with all that entails. Rather worse, it's been very influenced by some of the earlier oWoD content. Late-era oWoD was beginning to become the WW that we all respect and Demon: the Fallen is still an incredible piece of work. The extremely simplistic approach of Beast is very much more of a 1E/2E oWoD style than it is the Revised era. In a few ways it reminds me of CtD and I think that may have something to do with the problems involved, as Blackhat is also on the force for C20.
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Jun 3, 2015 15:12
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The Red List, by the Other Matt McSomething, is finally out.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:22
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Kavak posted:You'd have to get pretty apocryphal to get more children of God. And exploring crazy apocrypha, related but distinct religions, and downright heretical syncretic teachings is awesome fun.
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Jun 5, 2015 01:40
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Beast almost seems like it might work better as a book about Changeling's keepers coming to our world for a Hostel-esque vacation.
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Jun 7, 2015 02:56
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Obligatum VII posted:The sad fact is, we're (that is, the people posting in this thread) kind of the minority of the White Wolf/Onyx Path userbase. It doesn't actually surprise me that it got funded. Although i don't know which of those two reasons is more prevalent. I am legitimately stunned every time I go to the official oWoD forums. Some of the opinions are just loving bizarre and can't be supported by any reading of the source texts, the subtext, or the genre. That's without getting into specific concerns (one I see constantly is this idea that the Setites, Assamites and Baali are all completely interchangeable and redundant), the constant substitution of people's fanon in discussions about 'canon' stuff (e.g., discussion of the role of justicars in the Camarilla as an example. Someone will come in and say that in his game, Justicars are actually the servants of the Inconnu, the Camarilla doesn't exist, etc, and not see it as a derail) and the enormous amount of love for 1E and 2E. Now, I love the oWoD substantially (and substantively) more than the next man. I even love quite a lot of the cheesy nonsense of 1E and 2E, but to consider them superior story-wise or mechanically to Revised is loving madness. But it seems to be a large part of the groupthink over there that 2E was the peak of the oWoD, and its things like that that gives me huge concerns about C20 and even the way Beast has been handled. The vocal fanbase over there are really weird (they, of course, certainly think the same about us!)
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Jun 7, 2015 05:18
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Yeah, M20 was a pretty solid execution of the change, I have to admit. I disagree with some of the choices made but having the options as the devs see them was interesting. My concern is that they won't take the best from M20 for C20, and it's mostly to do with the nature of that particular game and with Blackhat's recent work on Beast. That and I love the idea of CtD and have always been wretchedly disappointed in the execution.
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Jun 7, 2015 05:30
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Mormon Star Wars posted:What? How? That's amazing. Well, see, they all worship False Gods and are from somewhere in the middle east and therefore they are one and the same. The most compelling argument I saw was for swapping the bloodline-clan status of the Baali and the Setites to enhance the judeo-christian element of the setting, which I could maybe get behind if it was done really well. But as it stands, the main thrust really is that they all sit there in the middle east not being 'normal' vampires in the sense of the Camarilla, Giovanni or Sabbat clans. And since they're all 'evil', that means they're all interchangeable. Now, nevermind that the 'evil' status of the Setites is very much up in the air because of the strong gnostic underpinnings of that Clan (leave alone that they aren't that much worse than any other clan, really - they're just more open about it), the Assamites are only 'evil' in these interpretations because they like to diablerize people (...aaaand let's ignore that a big part of that is down to the Baali in the first place...) and that all three factions serve very different masters, goals, and use different methodologies. It boils down to 'brown people who think differently are all the same', which is exactly what the Camarilla in its role as Colonialism Metaphor thinks and which a lot of words went into subverting as a result. I've always liked myself that those three groups had their own hugely complex, violent struggle going on night after night throughout the Mid-East and Northern Africa, with the added thorn of 'foreign' influence dating back very bloody far as well. It was one of the more effective pieces of VtM's political subtext as well once they hit revised, this idea that these monolithic blocs of 'Other' out in the Mid-East or Africa were in fact very complex societies of their own, both internally and externally to their clans. It's post-colonialism 101, but in fairness, it works precisely because every portrayal in setting up until that point had been more or less colonialist in nature. A lot of that was attempts to unfuck the genuinely bizarre portrayal of some of the 'lesser' clans in 1E and 2E (we all remember, I trust, the days when Assamites were essentially all male and all muslim because Orientalism) but it created one of the most interesting parts of the setting. But let's just drop all that because 'heavy metal demon worship/desperate attempt to subdue ancient evils via supplication' = 'spreader of enlightenment through suffering' = 'legalistic and honour-bound judges'. They can't see that those things are actually distinct. They literally just see 'bad guys' who can be interchanged. CommissarMega posted:I like the concept of all these supernatural powers having scientific explanations, but neuron guns are another thing entirely Aaaand that's going in the Sons of Ether playbook.
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Jun 7, 2015 06:24
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It's like trying to explain planetary formation using aether and miasma or something.
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Lunatics, mostly.
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Jun 7, 2015 08:50
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I regularly play in a game where the entire idea is to be cartoonishly evil supervillains. Beast is still way too loving far even by my tremendously warped standards.
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Jun 8, 2015 04:15
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On the upside, Pugmire can probably serve admirably as Rango: the Tabletoping.
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Jun 8, 2015 11:44
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Night10194 posted:This is the absolute most oWoD game since the oWoD. Whoah whoah whoah. This mess right here is a whole other kettle of fish than even the worst of the oWoD, with the exception of Doktor Hitlerina the Tzimisce and, like, a tiny bit of Changeling and Werewolf content. It had its racism and taste issues but it never went into straight up abuse apologia as the core theme of a game line.
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Jun 8, 2015 17:11
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Yeah. I'm one of those people who've gone from loyal, automatic backer and customer to 'eh... maybe' for future releases after this pile of bullshit.
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Jun 9, 2015 09:34
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Actually, you know what, the Melanie thing is pushing me over an edge. I'm actually going to write to Onyx Path and request it be removed or expressly presented as a case where a person is justified in killing a Beast, because it is way too loving close to some real-life poo poo I've seen and that's making it very personal.
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Jun 9, 2015 17:25
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moths posted:I briefly thought borrowing Wraith's shadow guide mechanic might help save Beast. Treating the Soul as a separate entity would go a long way towards giving you relatable PCs, and even remove the need for fiat-bad Heroes. (Villainous heroes could still exist, like Thunderbolt Ross or Gaston, but ALSO good heroes who couldn't differentiate between you and your Soul.) Not gonna lie, this could be an amazing game. I'd be down to play a beast simultaneously struggling to still be a good person or even a morally good archetype of his monstrosity (not every dragon or giant or troll in myth is necessarily a colossal rear end in a top hat afterall, so there's ample precedent) while also trying to survive hero attacks, not kill the heroes who do more good than bad in the world, and try and steer them towards the beasts who give in fully to loving horrorshow monstrosity. It'd also make a loving neat twist on the monomyth, which is supposedly part of beast's whole schtick. By directly acting to try and keep the good hero alive but 'in the dark' even when he's busy barging into your shadowy lair, you take on the role Campbell sets out for the supernatural or quasi-supernatural source of aid. The hero doesn't know it, but you're the reason he ends up with the necessary amulet to go kill that dragon - because you made sure it was in the 'treasure' in the false lair of yours he raided, or you arranged for an old homeless man to give it to him, etc. You're the force that pushes him into the return stage of the monomyth cycle once he's done, to make sure he doesn't turn into one of the villainous 'heroes' who wind up causing great amounts of harm. And all the while you're having to fight against the monstrous instincts and manage to keep him from accidentally killing you rather than the real bastards.
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Jun 11, 2015 04:40
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The Sabbat definitely underwent major tonal shifts between 1E and Revised. poo poo, originally they were treated as a clan in 1st Ed material and were a lot bigger on the 'gently caress all this secrecy bullshit' and less on the 'we are holy soldiers preparing for an unholy war' element. I personally think the best view of the Sabbat is actually the one where it's really three or four disparate factions held together as much by opposition to the Camarilla as anything else. You have your loving lunatic 'DEATH TO ALL HUMANS! LET BLOOD RAIN IN THE STREETS!' extremists - both among the shovelheads and the older members - chafing under the rule of the more conscious and self-aware elders of the sect, who aren't all that different from the Camarilla except in end goal. They enforce a masquerade, they manipulate and control the younger sect members, and they learned lessons from the many times where Vampires tried to rule openly in the past. Then you have your religious nutjobs, who are significantly weakened when Moncada dies but still have their presence, particularly in the Inquisition and the Templars. And finally, you have the Black Hand, who are the ones taking the whole 'holy soldiers for an unholy war' bit really seriously while being sabotaged by the True Black Hand, who also take the same thing very seriously but for the opposing side. On any given night, any of these factions - not to mention the oldschool Tzimisce - might be actively engaged in fighting each other as much as the Camarilla or other threats. That's the Inquisition's whole deal, even, to police the rest for infernalism etc. And this is where the Sabbat becomes weak. If they were one faction, with their numbers they could steamroll the Camarilla in a year. But they have no centralized command structure and where they do, there's actually three of them all fighting the others for power. It's almost like the Ancients wanted to set up a controlled opposition and hamstring them.
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Jun 12, 2015 04:06
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Mors Rattus posted:So where do the crazed Nazi Tzimisce fit in there? They fall into the first category most of the time, and sometimes the second. Really, metamorphosist Tzimisce are almost their own faction in the scheme of things - they just lack the effective force and will of the main ones I outlined. You could put them in with the 'I'm just here because you gotta be somewhere and this is where my VampireDad was' group, I suppose, since they often have very little care for the Sabbat except on paper.
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Jun 12, 2015 05:53
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Checking some oChangeling content to correct some inaccuracies in the Project files. I forgot how much I feel disappointed by the huge Irish element of the damned setting. Why have half the setting revolve around a bunch of Irish-originated fae and then just go with a sort of generic medieval fantasy bullshit for their every interaction?
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Jun 12, 2015 08:01
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I quite like the idea of Huntsmen, but as something very rare. The terrifying rumour around the campfire, etc. Now and then a True Fae really wants his property back for some reason, and he contracts it out.
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Jun 13, 2015 05:33
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Kavak posted:The Major is a loving Nazi, not the kind of archetype you want for Heroes right now. Anderson worls, though. Anderson in particular would work, since he's actually presented as a heroic figure outside of his unhealthy desire to kill protestants. Protects the weak, fights for the innocent, raises orphaned children, etc.
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Jun 14, 2015 08:06
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Naturally, a bunch of people are really mad at the revisions.Eriard posted:I must sadly say that these revisions do greatly disappoint me, i fel that it removes a lot of the Joy of tackelig having become a beast, it removes a lot of challenge and dedicated horror and fear. It also feels a lot less cool to play this horror rather than the ancient soul, even though there is a lot of semantics at work here. It also removes the player from themselves and turns the horror into an adversary rather than us BEING the monster
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Jun 14, 2015 08:18
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Kavak posted:Yeah, you've got to research really carefully to avoid creating a World of Darkness that ends up better than our world in some ways. It's why I prefer to just focus on the monsters, real life is bad enough as-is. Just do what I do and throw in the adjectives Warped, Evil, Sinister, and Shadow liberally. The coterie has a covert meeting with their informant in the Wraped Parking Lot of an Evil McDonald's in Sinister Los Angeles, Shadow California. Work done, hire me White Wolf.
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Jun 15, 2015 05:51
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Obviously it was a paradox backlash from the earlier battle between Warped Kung Fu Monks and Shadow Robot Nerds.
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Jun 15, 2015 05:57
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" Astromancer posted:The thing that gave Changeling it's greatest force of Horror were the Sidhe. The game showed how irresponsible dreams create horror, misery, injustice, and cruelty. Because the Sidhe were dreams of power, the power of beauty, the power of wealth, the power of social prestige, power without responsibility or compassion, they were lovely monsters. It's an interesting take, if a bit of a marxist interpretation, on one of the main conflicts of CtD. Kind of makes me hope that C20 will go balls-to-the-wall, nuts-on-the-road social commentary and become the game of the Glorious Faery-People's Revolutionary Democratic Front versus the Order of Silver Assholes.
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Jun 17, 2015 17:22
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LatwPIAT posted:I did not like the way he appropriated trans identities as something "magickal" in M20. In fairness to Phil, there actually is a very long history of identifying gender transgressive identities and archetypes as possessing some kind of magical nature. Identifying that with the bulk of transgendered people is very weird and very off base, but I don't think it's malicious or even conscious on Brucato's part. He's too busy thinking of two-spirit shamans, the union or inversion of dualistic opposites in their male-female incarnations in the form of mythologically archetypal hermaphroditism, and the evil-eye banishing anasyromenos. We have to remember that Phil is a very specific kind of batshit, which is the IRL dead-serious chaos magician kind. The chaos magic traditions were largely intended as jokes by their authors, tongue-in-cheek playfulness to poke fun at the more 'serious' occultists out there, so it takes a special kind of lunatic to go 'yes, this seems like a legitimate, non-joke thing to devote my life to' above and beyond the kind of lunatic (like myself!) who do that with gnostic and hermetic schools.
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Jun 24, 2015 04:02
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Androc posted:Is that what we're calling The Project now? No, that still goes by the project moniker of MKWASTINGMYLIFE.
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Jun 24, 2015 05:41
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If we're lucky it'll veer away from the loving annoying way it handled (well, everything, but especially) the nobility. "Hey guys let's do a thing with fairies who won't shut the gently caress up about their Celtic roots but let's not actually approach their things like they're in any way, shape or form a reflection of Celtic ideals! It'll be just like going to an 'Irish Pub' in New York!" EDIT: Seriously, who made that call? I've said it before, but the unconquered Irish and Welsh approaches to the idea of nobility are much more fluid, more dynamic, and better suited to a game because there's a lot more potential for change, growth, decline, etc. You can even work in the three stages of changeling life into it with ease. I can understand not going there for American, English, or other Fae, but not for the actual Irish and Welsh ones? Come on! Letting some of the Sidhe and Commoners embrace more modern Chivalric ideals is itself not a bad idea, especially if you can contrast it against 'traditionalist' factions - Chivalric Fae in conflict with Traditionalist Fae, usually but not always fought with debates and a war of the heart, sometimes with cold iron swords in the dead of night. Throw in the Three Courts and the Commoner v Noble element and you've got a hell of a dynamic, volatile setting that practically screams to be played. Loomer fucked around with this message at 02:58 on Jun 28, 2015 |
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Jun 28, 2015 02:52
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It was, and we got it free if we backed Children of the Revolution.
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Jun 29, 2015 03:44
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Axelgear posted:Worth noting that this is the same God-Machine that possibly created humanity solely to mine uranium. "Simple and direct" is a phrase that seems to be anathema to it. https://youtu.be/gViHCSApQu0?t=2m27s
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Jun 29, 2015 07:10
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Totally unrelated, but if any of you haven't see this, it's basically the most 1st Ed VtM video possible.
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Jul 26, 2015 08:31
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That does seem like ground that was already covered by Orpheus. Huh. As for the return of the metaplot, yay! I like the terrible, 90s Pro Wrestling level storylines.
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Aug 1, 2015 05:26
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Daeren posted:Doesn't this mean that ᴛʜᴇ ᴘʀᴏᴊᴇᴄᴛ will have more material, too? Yes. Yes it does. My task will be as that of sisyphus, only instead of a boulder it will be an endless pile of strangely and specifically racist roleplaying games, and it will not be a punishment for deceit, but for that most wretched of RPG sins, simulationism.
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Aug 1, 2015 07:23
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I remember Demon. Its part of what I can't stand about the OP forums - a whollllle lot of folk there hate it rather vocally because it's 'religious fundamentalism' and poo poo like that.
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Aug 1, 2015 14:50
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Yeah. The big issue they have is the part where every religion but Judaism is the work of one demon or other. I can see a point there, honestly, but Demon makes a pretty clear case that even Judaism and its offshoots aren't the 'true faith' but rather degenerate and warped versions, influenced by demons and other forces over the millennia. A lot of the same people are also huge fans, awkwardly, of 1st Ed VtM - they genuinely think its better than anything that came after, without realizing that 1E contains as you said the very in-setting root of the Abrahamic creation-story that Demon came with later. Some of them have never even read Demon to boot. There's a lot of that over there, or at least in the threads I read.
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Aug 1, 2015 15:12
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Huh. I wonder which Gehenna. There's like seven options if you go through all the books.
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Aug 1, 2015 16:53
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Perhaps the Gehenna will just be that the Antes rose for a couple of years, ate a shitton of elders, and went back to bed. All the noddists, etc, get hugely disappointed - it ain't the end of days afterall. No glorious crusade of blood, no culmination of the ancient jyhad. Just a loving terrifying time to be a vampire and the complete disintegration of the social order. EDIT: This thread is going to get weird. Some very reasonable voices in there. But then you hit the guy wanting them to cut out the Giovanni entirely and make the Setites into a Baali bloodline rather than a clan. Or even post 2, which is immediately leaping on the 'assamites are terrorists' train that hasn't been A Thing in the setting since early 2E, or the voices that don't seem to have grasped that there was actually quite a bit of nuance and complexity to the Setites by the close of Revised. I predict a lot of that sort of thing as we close in on 4th Edition, with people wanting a completely different setting, not actually having read half the books about what they complain about, or basically arguing for VtR but with a splash of VtM paint on it. Loomer fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 04:54
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So, this thread doubles periodically as my Clutch thread. Clutch's new album is coming out in October, which is awesome, but I thought I'd link you all to the single. It's on a music journo site but that's the easiest way to get to it. Clicky clicky. With what we know of Deviant - creatures made by the sinister experimentation of greater powers - it just so happens to fit thematically really well, right down to the kind of frenetic lunatic pace I imagine a lot of Deviant games are going to have. A good chunk of the album is apparently going to have a narrative with this sort of bizarre mad scientist sci-fi poo poo. Telekinetic prophetic dynamite!
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Aug 5, 2015 18:12
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Twibbit posted:I am still pretty sure he throws random words in there to fit whatever rhythm he has going on. Oh, absolutely. You can put narrative in Fallon's work, but he's still Fallon and he's still going to rant and rave like a lunatic in front of the mike.
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Aug 6, 2015 11:21
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Nah, you want Laird Barron.
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Aug 24, 2015 07:58
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:That's definitely the owod recommendation, but I'm going to have to side with AaF for having the actual point here. Actually, Baron versus Ligotti is pretty much like oWoD v nWoD, now that you've made me think on it. Very similar subject matter, but substantial tonal differences. Hell, Ligotti is even technically superior but lacks some of the colourful 'texture' of Baron, which is exactly my experience with oWoD and nWoD.
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Aug 24, 2015 15:49
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