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That's certainly an essay about how vampire horror shouldn't explore the discomforting intersection between sex and violence.
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Apr 9, 2015 19:05
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Yawgmoth posted:That's certainly the complete dismissal of valid concerns without actually reading a word of said concern that I've come to expect out of you. But since I have time to post at work, I'll tl;dr it for you: the problem isn't that the topic is explored, it's how that exploration is presented. Specifically, a book titled "sexmurder" with zero other context (because it's a book cover) is, if nothing else, in extremely poor taste. If only there was some kind of signal about that context provided by it being a book for Vampire: The Requiem, a game about vampires struggling to maintain a semblance of humanity, that identifies itself firmly within the tradition of gothic horror and described its essentials in an entire other edition, for which these statements assumed familiarity, since the name was assigned to what was originally a supplement for that game. If only. Then there would be more than zero context for anyone who is not a cleverly disguised chatbot or largely interested in performing outrage for an audience so as to signal that they are in fact totally cool dudes. EDIT: Old argument, happy to move on. MalcolmSheppard fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 01:52
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Adept Nightingale posted:"Performing outrage" is basically the worst way to dismiss concerns anyway, and certainly isn't going to win anyone new over to your way of thinking, so maybe moving on is best, yes. I admit I'm pretty dismissive of concerns about violence from the person cited in the intro post, because he later wished I would for-real die. But in the interests of moving forward, given that for good reasons and bad it *is* tricky, how would the folks here go about handing the disturbing things about Vampire? Because previous discussions have ended with assertions that it's all going to be stupid and RPGs are an inherently untrustworthy medium. One of the issues is that there's a tension between the traditional gamer goal of using a character to satisfy personal fantasies and power trip, and playing characters who are Not Nice. The genre itself plays with that tension; vampires are cool, but they're monsters. Lots of CWoD books in particular were about playing characters you shouldn't feel good about or really identify with, but the games didn't clearly map them. Plus we have icky parts of player culture where some folks who want to use game and genre as a shield to play moral transgressors as an obvious form of wish-fulfillment--those guys who always play vampire Nazis in LARP and are way too into talking about "historically accurate" discrimination. MalcolmSheppard fucked around with this message at 02:57 on Apr 10, 2015 |
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Apr 10, 2015 02:32
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Effectronica posted:It's really cool that he mentioned people dismissing it as unimportant and overreacting, and- lo, it is dismissed. I'm not dismissing it. I'm accusing it of being an exercise in bad faith. There's a difference. I mean we can play this a number of ways. For example, let's take a look at the reference to "dick-ripping lesbian feminists" in this thread. That's about the Black Furies, right? An all-women faction? Do you not think that this kind of hyperbole is discriminatory poo poo designed to punish folks for daring to explicitly design a faction for women? Because it's not the first time. I've read the same thing about the Sisters of Hippolyta in Mage, and if I were to take this in equivalent bad faith it'd be fair to read it as concern trolling designed to disguise some lovely biases. Log in your eye, eh? But maybe we can stop exercising bad faith, eh?
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Apr 10, 2015 19:33
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In any event, if we assume the worst anyway, the argument about whether CWoD is better or worse than NWoD is an argument about whether clumsy stereotyping is better or worse than erasure.
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Apr 10, 2015 19:38
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:On the other hand, the least charitable definition of any given WtA faction is almost definitely the most accurate one given *gestures to everything about the entire product line from start to finish*. Can't see one of the reviews. The other one just gives it a "meh." Meanwhile, Black Furies got: quote:And on that note, that’s Tribebook: Black Furies! Final verdict? I liked it. The history section is useless, but the other chapters have cool, evocative material. Usually the last chapter is the weakest in a White Wolf splatbook, but this one really stands on its own. There are epic plot hooks to sink into, and the Furies certainly feel more necessary than their core entry makes them out to be. They're not just feminists; they have an active role in human society in judging crimes, more so than the other tribes, and they have a devotion to mysticism that rivals the Uktena. They feel fully realized. If we’re going to judge the book on whether it makes Black Furies more playable or interesting to enact, I’d argue that this one does. It’s certainly not the best Werewolf has to offer, but it’s decent, and it could have been a lot worse than that. But next time, we’re going to look at a book beyond decent. Yeah, that sure looks like a cavalcade of awful as any right-thinking person should believe, right? quote:e: If it's erasing magical blood power Gypsies and the mysterious vampires of the Hidden Orient with completely different cosmological underpinnings then yes, erase away holy poo poo Sure, Gypsies was bad. It's why the company actively ignored it. On the other hand, the idea that it would be less racist to say that Asian vampires come from the Bible but are too dumb to remember (which is the other option in CWoD) is worth a laugh.
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Apr 10, 2015 20:01
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:I'm glad you found the good book to match the other bad book, because that completely validates your argument and renders mine moot. Given that this was the book about the thing I talked about, instead of what you wanted it to be about, I have no regrets. quote:And no, what's worth a laugh is the having-cake-and-eating-it-too idea that the owod cosmology has anything resembling internal consistency and that it's planned for reasons of inclusivity and not left-hand-doesn't-talk-to-right-hand kitchen sink planning that tries to backsolve itself into coherence when people try to wrap up the product lines and sprawl the metaplot. Unless you completely ignore that Judeo-Christianity informs the very first and foundational product line for the entire company, and also Demon: The Fallen, the game of playing fallen demons from the Christian Bible cast out of Paradise alongside Lucifer and that within it attempts to offer an explanation for all the creation myths of all the product lines being correct because of the division of reality caused by the titular Fall. Well the funny thing is that in this regard, I have first hand knowledge. The Classic WoD isn't innately Judeo-Christian. Game lines had autonomy over matters related to their own setting as long as they did not make overly strong claims about other lines, which the other lines could ignore. Fallen loosened this a bit, but having worked on Ascension I can tell you that as far as we were concerned nothing about Demon mattered unless we wanted it to matter. I nicked a few ideas but that's the extent of it. quote:So yeah. I'd say it's more ok to assume vampires use the same rules everywhere if the entire universe is written in-product as being reconciled together and explained by a Judeo-Christian viewpoint. I mean, it's good enough for the Gaki to still be vampire-vampires and not year-of-anime-vampires. Not that flesh shintai isn't cool and all. So no, your premise is wrong. In any event this would still be bad, because it would make it canonical that a whole group of people are wrong by virtue of where they live. And the Gaki sucked. Now KotE is still wacky in a whole bunch of ways, but the premise that more than one type of being can generate a vampire myth isn't one of them. (Mostly, KotE was unplayable because it had four fluctuating traits whose comparative values mattered.)
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Apr 10, 2015 20:43
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Also the funniest part of that specific example is that anybody can be Embraced as a Cainite vampire, but explicitly only people from eastern Asia can come back as Kuei-Jin. Cainite vampirism: truly the big tent party. Heh. Yeah, this is a classic example of a bad decision made for a good reason--the reason being that tons of people would have played white Wan Xian who got to the right hell by really enjoying Bleach or something.
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Apr 10, 2015 20:45
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Chernobyl Peace Prize posted:Honestly Malcolm, I don't mean to single you out for the sins of The World-Spanning Stereotypes of The Great Cosmopolitan Luminaries of Stone Mountain, Georgia. But holy poo poo dude, if you're going to go to bat and advocate for a brand, you have to realize this one (by which I mean owod specifically, and even more specifically vast swaths of material written in the unwashed 90s) is...really, really not-great, a lot of the time, and no amount of personal involvement in its creation or rose-colored nostalgia is going to make it any less stupid or gross. I'm hardly the guy standing up for everything (and I wasn't even working for WW in the 90s) but I don't really think of the World of Darkness as a brand because that's never been my job. Gypsies was bad. I think the not-quite-a-swastika symbol and racism in earlier treatments of the Get of Fenris is bad. (Fun fact: A white supremacist tried to kill me in the 90s and I had to get plastic surgery to fix my face, so those kinds of things are for-real triggery for me.) I think lots of stuff was poorly done. But a lot of it wasn't, and the people I worked with weren't bad, shortsighted or ill-educated people. So I think making GBS threads on a whole game line for a handful of clumsy misfires, and saying that anybody who wants to play them with you might be a bad person, is over the top.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:53
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Tulul posted:It's a shame the Matrix came out in '99 and thus became connected to Ascension, because it's much, much more like Awakening. Metaphysically, it's Awakening all the way. But dressing funny and raiding MiB bases is Ascension all the way.
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Apr 10, 2015 22:57
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tatankatonk posted:Do LARPers change the kind of characters they play as they get older? Do middle-aged LARPers, aware of their bodies starting to fail them, play middle managers and bureaucrats? Is there a group of 80 year olds somewhere live-action-roleplaying vampire elders, and enlisting the nerdiest of their grandchildren as their neonate henchmen? Lots of the hardcore MET LARP folks I knew who are now in their 40s do Nordic style games, but beyond wanting new experiences benefit from the fact that you don't have to show up weekly. I think a coterie of geriatric neonates all Embraced to preserve their talents sounds great.
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Apr 10, 2015 23:12
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Loomer posted:This was the position they took later on, after someone pointed out how loving insane they were being - there was zero equivalency given initially, and they were presented as sharp, fundamental distinctions. The fact that the P'o is equivalent to the Shadow goes back to Dark Kingdom of Jade in 1995, predating KotE.
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Apr 11, 2015 01:08
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Loomer posted:DKoJ was a little less clear on equivalency, as I recall. If they're functionally the same, the rest is perspective. KotE has the Yin World too, which is "functionally the same" as the Shadowlands because it's the Shadowlands, even though it's presented differently.
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Apr 11, 2015 01:56
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From what I have been told the Guardian article talking to Nick Blood is pretty good. Honestly, I thought it was amazing nobody could design a version of diablerie with wide appeal. You loot a corpse for powers! But yeah, I remember when one of the deadlines passed, then another, and when tabletop stuff was changed for [REDACTED], and all kinds of nonsense that fortunately don't affect how OP rolls out books now beyond approvals.
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Apr 17, 2015 18:26
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Mors Rattus posted:Chiminage is like two steps above Vitae, Celerity and Auspex, by rights of having extra syllables, sounding super goofy even in comparison and being equally well-served by the term 'sacrifice' which is really quite a nice little word. Chiminage is a real English word with connotations that work better than "sacrifice" in WtA, since passage by Moon Bridge is a big part of the game and chiminage means "rural road toll." Metis is the name of a real ethnic group in my country and linking its meaning (people of European-Aboriginal ancestry, generally) to a fictional group that experiences deformity and is forbidden to exist by tradition creates all sorts of offensive connotations. The former is a bit of flavour that effectively templates/keywords what it stands for. The latter should be changed, period. I love WtA, but I'm not sure I can properly convey how offensive the use of this word in the game is, at least in much of Canada. I am not exaggerating to say it's as bad as anything in Gypsies, and might even be worse.
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Apr 24, 2015 16:21
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paradoxGentleman posted:These are first drafts, I would imagine they willput something more respectable in the final version. The lore snippets in Blood and Smoke were over the top but not terrible, from what I remember. They're hamstrung by not being able to hire me for everything. Anyway, polishing redlined Path notes even as we speak. I don't think it's breaking NDA to say that or note that Awakening is generally building momentum right now.
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Apr 29, 2015 17:57
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Gerund posted:It seems to me that the writers are terrified of telling players that no matter how Clever a mage is with their magic, the exarchs declare that in the Fallen World disciples of an arcana do a single bashing per potency in a single combat round with a spell. We have ample experience noting that no matter how the rules state it, "Hurr I turn the air in your lungs to cyanide ZILLION DMG" will always be a part of Mage discussion.
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Apr 30, 2015 22:34
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Ferrinus posted:I'm a bit surprised all the Escape: sections aren't going to feature some specific-to-Seeming moral or psychological compromise. I'm extremely surprised at the absolutely atrocious state of the editing. Like... they didn't just upload the wrong file or something, did they? In the case of the Paths they were put up as raw first draft--no edits, just what I had for Dave. There's an even earlier "zero draft" state that developers sometimes look at before writers officially submit anything within the production cycle as well.
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May 3, 2015 06:05
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1s cancel successes. That's the Rule of 1. If you get 0 successes and one or more 1s before applying this rule, you get a botch. That's the rule in Revised. M20 says that rolling multiple 1s on a botch makes it worse. This makes sense if you want more competent people to fail harder. If you don't, don't use it. I generally don't use the Rule of 1 (1s cancelling successes) either because it's demoralizing as a procedure.
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May 21, 2015 02:01
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Gilok posted:I was frankly really surprised that Armory Reloaded had such fun story hooks. If someone's using the monster hunting judo team I want to hear about it.
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May 22, 2015 13:59
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Dave Brookshaw posted:I keep gamely pitching Blue-books as well. There's only so many resources to go around. You know, that reminds me: If you guys would like a full length Woundgate book you should make a lot of noise about that.
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May 23, 2015 22:27
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Mors Rattus posted:Woundgate was the fantasy setting from Mirrors? Or was it the 'everyone knows about the supernatural' one? It's the fantasy setting.
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May 24, 2015 03:30
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Loomer posted:Blood and Betrayal dropped today. I am one page in and it's already some peak oWoD. Weird bald dude? check. Bondage gear? Check. hosed up teeth, not discounting two front teeth as fangs? Check. That is their frontispiece. MET is now designed from the ground up with the interests of hardcore MES play in mind, so it's going to go with that. These days it's really more of an LARP org internal rules set like NERO. Sure, you could "run NERO" or run MET on your own but the system doesn't bend that way for you. Personally I think it's sort of a pity because I know a lot of people who started gaming with grey book Laws of the Night, which has a light, intuitive system that lends itself to natural language. But it's not designed for the highly competitive vibe and overarching structure of organized play, so I can't blame the current development direction for being what it is, either.
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May 27, 2015 18:09
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Gerund posted:
Gumshoe, yes. Burning Wheel . . . well, I'll call it a *reaction* to it.
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Jun 4, 2015 04:24
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everything about that preview is basically like reading a reverse Wod 20th anniversary edition, where the game is actually pushed forward 20 years rather than looking back. I see Gumshoe and Burning Wheel as big influences and that is pretty darn cool.
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Daeren posted:All this talk and I totally forgot that in attempting to be socially considerate, they set up the accidental reading that LGBT people (and minorities, and all out-groups) are abusive sociopathic deviants that can at best sublimate their urges *Cultural Studies hat on* That's a bit of a basic reading. Samuel Delany and Clive Barker have both represented queerness this way in their fiction to represent its defiance of heteronormative power structures and as something that is seen as immanent inside people, but transgressive through the act. You have to take a bit of a step beyond seeing the fiction as pure world simulation with the thinnest layer of allegory on top. You're allowed some leeway because of the bare fact that we are not opening a window into a self-sustaining other world with real moral actors, so people doing and being one thing can broadly be people doing/being something else, and various forms of mayhem can stand in for more reasonable acts. The parts of Beast that work are strongly evocative of Barker's Cabal/Nightbreed, which is a pretty blatant queer text. Boone is "coming out" as a monster and going through a process of queer self-definition, including having his condition treated as a psychiatric pathology, trouble with the law, a tortuous period of self-acceptance, encountering people who have failed to do the same and finally, community. A good reading of Beast would be about these things. Maybe the rendering of heroes is off a bit then by not bringing their passion/nature from the same basic place, since we know that so often, hatred comes from a refusal to recognize what is in yourself. *hat off*
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Jun 4, 2015 15:20
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tatankatonk posted:Cool. What about the parts of Beast that don't work at all? I didn't work on it so I can't say much more, and I certainly can't answer a question that broad and leading even if I did.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:37
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Crion posted:This is one hell of a smoke grenade, and in all fairness, "trivially correct" certainly is a form of correct So you're just going to ignore the fact that the thing Beast is being accused of subtextual homophobia for is a thing employed by prominent queer genre writers for a specific reason because TOO MANY WERDS. Got it. poo poo, this isn't even my project, but the level of discussion was so poor.
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Jun 4, 2015 16:50
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moths posted:The Cabal/Nightbreed comparison doesn't really work because all the Midians wanted was to live peacefully. Sure, some were over-zealous in their defense of that community, but they didn't go out into the world and deliberately gently caress with regular people. Maybe. In Cabal/Nightbreed the monsters want to eat people too, and at the end of Cabal the Breed go out into the world. Midian was never the true solution for them. My point is that analysis isn't just a game of "What if you were transported somewhere where this guy was totally being awful and he could be mapped to something different," because the *act* is also mapped to something different as well. White Wolf style games have never been built wholly on world simulation as the approach, though it can get confusing because you can do it that way due to the naturalistic presentation.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:02
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There's nothing in my contract that regulates what I can say beyond NDA. Of course I'm going to exercise some polite discretion, but projects are sufficiently separate that Beast isn't my thing at all and probably won't be. My main stuff right now is Awakening, some WoD2 stuff and Scion (I designed "spine" Sardonyx mechanics, like the ones previewed). Normally I'd let this sort of thing slide but it really reminded me of a long term thing with the games that I think I expressed best responding to moths. With WoD games, folks tend to be a bit half-assed with the allegory. They'll assign it to people and objects, but then assume their interactions are a naturalistic sort of simulation. (This problem sometimes applies to the design side as well.) So you'll have folks happy to acknowledge that a dragon represents something (let's say a Scotsman) other that a dragon, but that when it burns a dude to a crisp it is the same as a real person in the real world burning a guy with a flamethrower. And the result is somebody going "I'm really disappointed the game suggests Scotsmen are murderous pyromaniacs." To be fair this is a difficult thing in games because even though the signifier should be the whole of the thing--the dragon and the fire--we don't definitively script the burninating, but only suggest it. Plus, WoD games do present the world as a thing in of itself in a way familiar to campaign-style gaming, with population figures and prosaic accounts of the world. Nevertheless I think a broader look can be worthwhile, though it will honestly find as many problems as answers. That's okay too. It's something to work with. MalcolmSheppard fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jun 4, 2015 |
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Jun 4, 2015 17:26
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Ferrinus posted:I dunno, Malcolm's burns on whoever was handing in those Changeling drafts were pretty scorching. No idea what you're talking about.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:31
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I mean it works both ways. Better honed fan criticism would have more rapidly determined how terrible my work for Geist was.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:32
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Ferrinus posted:I just thought it was funny that, as people were scratching their heads over the atrocious (non)editing of those Changeling documents, you were like "Oh heh yeah those are actually not looked over in the least bit before upload, just like mine weren't *buffs fingernails*" Nah, I was just describing a process. Different teams use the open development process in their own ways. Mage and Changeling both went for a "warts and all" where as soon as the developer thought something neat arose, it went up. I completed my dev edits of the Paths recently and they are considerably refined from the first hack at it. Plus, different writers submit at different stages in their processes. Newer writers use a much more back and forth process where pre-1st drafts go to the developer in a really embryonic stage, get kicked back, and go forth again, and might get shared for open dev at any point. I came up during a period where I had to delete a ton of email just to have room for a single small Word doc to go back and forth, so I tend to grind and grind and then throw the final result at Dave or whoever, so you'll tend to see my work at a later stage.
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Jun 4, 2015 17:46
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paradoxGentleman posted:Look, I am glad to hear that there might be a precedent to explain why is Beast the way it is, but could you explain it a bit more simply? I honestly didn't understand much. 1) There's a non-homophobic tradition of using monsters, the supernatural and transgressive figures as representations of queer identity, by LGBTQ writers, so that representation isn't inherently a problem. 2) For 1) to work, though, you need to get that the figures *and* their actions/situations represent something else. Now to get to Ferrinus' comment a bit about confrontation and reaction, over in another place a friend of mine talked about these elements in the context of the politics of respectability, where liberal tolerance reaches its limits and demands a certain degree of conformity in your Will and Grace depictions. Or getting beyond that identity axis, in patriarchy you'll have liberal manifestations that will only accept some women's experiences as valid, and demands women reproduce patriarchal ideals to advance. On my perusal of Beast certain things might be read that way, but here I have to concede A) It's not my project, and B) my personal identity bits are pretty dominant-group-y in all the ways I'm willing to disclose, and you'll really have to talk to somebody else for responses that really come from the guts.
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Jun 4, 2015 18:03
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Gerund posted:Considering that every single writer from OP has distanced themselves from Beast, I'm gonna go with "the McFarlands". I didn't work on it, but I'm not taking a position on the game based on Internet Consensus either. I posted in regard to some generic poo poo talk and to note that the basic structure of the game does follow a tradition in horror fiction. How well did it do? My only close reading of the text has been a couple of things I needed to know for Mage. But I'm in no way "distancing" myself from Beast. It's just not on my roster, which is currently NWoDcore, Sardonyx, Scion, Mummy, Mage, a little bit of Vampire: The Masquerade and some other things.
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Jun 9, 2015 14:26
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Daeren posted:This reminds me of that grimoire that's a limited run vinyl of a death metal album that actually plays "Satanic" High Speech when run backwards, and has a rote to turn a corpse's skeleton into metal and rip itself free from the body. That one was mine. There's a reference to it in one of my stories in The Fallen World Chronicle Anthology. The name actually comes from a friend of mine. We were going to print t-shirts with that name and some graphics and claim to be into the most obscure possible band. That's why Schattenbahn has a similarly synthetic origin.
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Jun 9, 2015 22:51
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Kavak posted:There's a vampire in one of the antagonist books that's exactly like that, except he's French. Canonically, the connection between TFV and the Seers is the most boring crossover ever, which I take full credit for. TFV's budget is partially managed by a Seer controlled federally sponsored enterprise that deals with funds and disbursements for black budgets. This means that, for instance, TFV probably has a bunch of gear that is actually leased, so that through complicated schemes the money drains back into a few Seers' bank accounts. They're probably skimming the pensions, too. Otherwise, they probably have little idea what TFV, which for them is a series of spreadsheets, actually does. They fret over TFV not buying enough guns and cool cars.
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Jun 12, 2015 04:54
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Flavivirus posted:Also there's been another teaser for Sardonyx: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mxa3JGoAq-FDw4MLlWO-1Ci8ezvvVXMhSOFl3cTwR6M/edit This is stuff I designed. I think it's going to be a hard sell in some quarters, but we shall see.
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Jun 18, 2015 17:55
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Ferrinus posted:I'm really liking what I'm reading so far. If you had infinite space I'd expect a little more discussion of what it's actually supposed to look like when a PC takes 8 damage while an NPC takes 50 from the same orbital death laser (presumably, the PC's just lucky enough to be standing behind something sturdy or ends up rolling the right way and only gets clipped, rather than reflecting the laser off his smarmy grin), but this stuff is cool. Yes. There's going to need to be some explanation for how Scaling works in the story above and beyond the systems document. When the Hulk punches Daredevil, we charitably assume Daredevil doesn't take it directly on the chin so that there is a chance for some sort of meaningful interaction. Skills do have a bunch of additional properties above and beyond adding dice, but this isn't my department so I can't say much more beyond what's been shown.
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Jun 18, 2015 18:12
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Kellsterik posted:So like Progenitor, but not as good. I think Aberrant and Progenitor are the greatest supers settings ever produced for roleplaying games first. It was just Aberrant until I read Progenitor, which is really top notch. The thing about Scaling is that it puts a slight dampener on things that effect PCs, but aims toward just enough to keep things plausible but interesting. In the top vs bottom Scale examples the people on the bottom are still likely to get obliterated! But there are middle cases where we can have the look of big things but keep consequences plausible, but not just a boring foregone conclusion. So I think Scaling can keep the spirit of Aberrant, which I personally love, but bring some things back into the realm of the playable. Much will depend on testing, of course.
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Jun 18, 2015 22:35
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Ferrinus posted:Unless you're playing on an actual grid I don't see what you'd use if not fields/range bands/etc. Keeping track of who's on which roof or whatever is about as much as you want to do in a theater of the mind system. I tried integrating Fields, range bands and movement but it started losing coherence when we're talking about, y'know, carrier-launched cruise missiles and space fighters and such.
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Jun 18, 2015 22:38
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