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Captain Bravo posted:I get the feeling that several posters in this thread don't understand the difference between "Sex" and "Gender". Sex is physical characteristics. Gender is an oppressive caste system.
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May 20, 2015 23:43
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Captain Bravo posted:I get the feeling that several posters in this thread don't understand the difference between "Sex" and "Gender". A hypothetical trans person's sex is male at birth. However they believe they are female. Do they personally believe their sex or their gender is female? Is it other's responsibility to accept that their sex or their gender is female? If they believe that their gender is female, is that due to social conditioning? If they were conditioned to be male, have they overcome their conditioning? Or did the conditioning not affect them because of some essentialism? In what way? In this case, I've generally read that this person would believe that they have a "female brain in a male body". Is the male body evidence of their sex and the female brain their gender? If that female brain is not assumed to be socially constructed, and assumed to be the way they were born, what are the characteristics of that femaleness? When someone says "I feel female but everyone thinks I am male", what do they mean by that? In what way? What if the answers given are commonly societally conditioned female gender characteristics? What are we all supposed to accept about transgendered people?
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May 21, 2015 00:03
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Series DD Funding posted:Sex is physical characteristics. Gender is an oppressive caste system. If a person who is told they are male believes they are female, are they now willfully oppressing themselves in the opposite way?
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May 21, 2015 00:07
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Paladinus posted:If vaginas are not exclusively female, why do MtF trans people usually want to have one? Why bother with wearing women's clothes if clothes with gender binary embedded in them are just a cultural construct. So is language that prescribes certain pronouns to certain genders. Maybe genders and sexes don't exist at all... Probably because they're as vulnerable to the cultural conditioning they've experienced all their lives as anyone else? Maybe some of them want to be normal (as defined by aforementioned cultural conditioning) and not have their existence be a political point? Maybe, even if they're 100% secure in themselves, they need to be sure other people will perceive them as such?
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May 21, 2015 00:12
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It's not something easily explained. Why do you feel that you are what you are? It's the same for someone who is transgendered. Full disclosure, I am. FtM. I didn't just wake up one day and go "You know what, I'm going to be a man from now on." This is something I've felt deeply since as long as I can remember. Some of my earliest memories are of praying before bed that I'd wake up with the right body. I can't explain why I feel the way I do, just that I do. I fought against it for years. The social constructs of gender are not "I view myself as a woman" or "I view myself as a man." They are "Women can do this, but not this. They can be this, but not this." and the same for men. Those parts are the constructs. Look at the case of David Reimer. Botched circumcision, so they decide to say he was a girl, and raise him as a girl, under the guidance of a researcher. Very messed up case (for reasons beyond just that). Even with being socialized as a girl, and given estrogen to cause a female type puberty, he knew he was a boy. That part they couldn't change.
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May 21, 2015 00:17
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AngryRobotsInc posted:It's not something easily explained. Why do you feel that you are what you are? It's the same for someone who is transgendered. OK, aside from the effects of any discrimination you might have endured, what do you think you have done differently in your life as someone who feels as if they are male and not female? Does it come down to body image? Or also to thought, feeling and action?
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May 21, 2015 00:38
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It comes down to my body and how I view myself, pretty much entirely. I'm actually fairly effeminate in a lot of ways with how I act and behave, and the activities I enjoy. The actions I make, and the feelings I have are those of a man because that's what I am. A man who was born male doing those things isn't any less of a man, either.
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May 21, 2015 00:47
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AngryRobotsInc posted:It comes down to my body and how I view myself, pretty much entirely. I'm actually fairly effeminate in a lot of ways with how I act and behave, and the activities I enjoy. The actions I make, and the feelings I have are those of a man because that's what I am. A man who was born male doing those things isn't any less of a man, either. So not only do you look female, you act effeminate? What makes you a man then? You're a man because you are, and your actions and thoughts are that of a man because they are your thoughts and actions? I'm the one with tautology in my user name.....
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May 21, 2015 01:04
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Tautologicus posted:So not only do you look female, you act effeminate? What makes you a man then? Who said I look female?
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May 21, 2015 01:09
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I once asked whether a human being born in total isolation from other human beings could ever have any conception of being the wrong gender. I guess the closest thing would be some amorphous sense that something is slightly off, but even then I'm not sure that would be the case. It's a convenient justification for gender dysphoria to be reduced purely into biological terms, and that David Reimer case is trotted out a lot. Despite it, I think we are a long way from conclusive on whether that's the whole story. Certainly I think some of the aspirational aspect of transitioning is towards the culturally constructed trappings of the opposite gender being more attractive to somebody, and not just purely some internal biological pressure. Pumping a person born a man full of estrogen and raising them as a girl is one thing, but being born ostensibly like any normal male or female, and believing yourself to actually be the other is a different kettle of fish. The distinction between actually being a male mind trapped in a woman's body, and a woman's mind convinced they are a male one is a pretty thorny one when it comes to trans issues. it's a pretty uphill battle to prove the former because the brain is complicated as balls.
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May 21, 2015 01:13
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AngryRobotsInc posted:Who said I look female? Alright, I didn't read closely or just assumed. So you dress like a man. Anyway I am more interested in what you consider to be masculine thoughts feelings and actions. I happen to believe that men and women are different and think and act differently to a degree so I just wanted to know. But I don't really have to get into it any further if you aren't feeling very introspective right now.
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May 21, 2015 01:59
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Series DD Funding posted:Sex is physical characteristics. Gender is an oppressive caste system. Then what does "transgender" mean if gender is an oppressive system derived from society rather than anything inherent? Does it mean you still want to participate in an oppressive system but change your position in it? I guess that's capitalism too, for working leftists.
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May 21, 2015 03:47
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Tautologicus posted:What are we all supposed to accept about transgendered people? Transgender people don't all agree on this  Tautologicus posted:It's fine to live your life the way you want to live (I guess), but don't go inflicting it on everyone else. Fortunately I only see it on the internet or if I go looking for it since culture in the US is so fragmented. How are trans people "inflicting" anything on you, if the only time you notice transgenderism is when you go looking for it?
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May 21, 2015 03:49
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AngryRobotsInc posted:It's not something easily explained. Why do you feel that you are what you are? It's the same for someone who is transgendered. Do you believe passing as FtM is easier than the other way around? Does the male voice come naturally from hormonal virilization or does it take intense training? (also Tautologicus, go read some basic 101 Wikipedia-level stuff on transgenderism and don't come back until you've finished)
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May 21, 2015 06:29
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Woolie Wool posted:Do you believe passing as FtM is easier than the other way around? Does the male voice come naturally from hormonal virilization or does it take intense training?
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May 21, 2015 07:49
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Woolie Wool posted:(also Tautologicus, go read some basic 101 Wikipedia-level stuff on transgenderism and don't come back until you've finished) Basic Wikipedia level stuff does not have an answer to my above questions Saeku posted:How are trans people "inflicting" anything on you, if the only time you notice transgenderism is when you go looking for it?
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May 21, 2015 09:41
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Woolie Wool posted:Do you believe passing as FtM is easier than the other way around? Does the male voice come naturally from hormonal virilization or does it take intense training? It is waaaaay easier to pass FtM, in my experience and from what I've seen through other people I know. I'm crazy short for a guy (5 foot even), and still pass no problem. Some people think I'm a kid sometimes, though. The voice does take some work, but hormones help. Like someone said above, it's much easier than the other way around, however. Honestly, while being trans isn't a walk in the park by any means, FtM is kind of Easy Mode when it comes to passing.
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May 21, 2015 11:59
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Tautologicus posted:Basic Wikipedia level stuff does not have an answer to my above questions If it doesn't, it will point out that your question is stupid. Seriously, 
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May 22, 2015 00:29
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Woolie Wool posted:If it doesn't, it will point out that your question is stupid. Which question is stupid and why I had a whole post of actual questions a few posts up. What's your contribution to the thread I actually took a queer theory class once. I left more confused about the lay of the land than i did when i went in. That's not a good thing
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May 22, 2015 01:01
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Bitter Mushroom posted:These questions stink of wrongthink Lay out the rightthink please
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May 22, 2015 01:04
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I can't, i've never been any good at denying reality. You however must accept the prevailing party line or suffer banishment to wikipedia 
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May 22, 2015 01:14
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Tautologicus posted:Which question is stupid and why Tautologicus posted:Suddenly within 20 years that should all be forgotten in favor of a theory of gender that says "you should identify with what you feel inside (that day)"? quote:Inflicting weakness and triviality on as many people as possible because a few can't get it together? Tautologicus posted:Women are men, and men are women? The following five questions are stupid, because their answers are obvious: quote:You go with what you feel, but also you could feel like you were another gender at birth? quote:You can have no gender at all? quote:You feel compelled to cut off your dick and balls and that should be OK?? quote:Why can't I stay on the fence? quote:Why can't someone say "you know, I just don't know about all this transexual business" and not be shouted out and called a phobic of some human sexual thing or another? Let me know if there are any others you want me to do. twodot fucked around with this message at 04:51 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 04:49
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Don't bother
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May 22, 2015 04:55
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I rarely see anything I would go as far as to call introspection in any transgender thread or article. I rarely see much introspection elsewhere either, but the indignancy in this thread that I ought to understand without any of that offered introspection is very curious to me. Also, reading up, I don't have the power from where I am sitting to "deny someone their self-identity". And you chose to answer all my rhetorical questions rather than the direct ones for some reason. And many other things that probably aren't worth saying the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 05:33 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 05:27
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Tautologicus posted:I rarely see anything I would go as far as to call introspection in any transgender thread or article. I rarely see much introspection elsewhere either, but the indignancy in this thread that I ought to understand without any of that offered introspection is very curious to me. edit: You are a stupid person.
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May 22, 2015 05:34
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So here is my beef with the transgender as an identity. If the issue here is gender identity, why adhere to that system at all? Sex is a binary state, and yes, XXY, or XXXX makes you extremely abnormal, but gender and gender roles and gender identity are a more modern invention. To that end, why use the system as all? Why say, 'I was born male, but identify as female'? Why, instead of identifying as male or female, identify as just you? I mean, I saw someone on OKC who said they, "Usually identify as about 70/30 male/female, but sometimes more female than male...". When I read stuff like, I roll my eyes heavily and wonder what the point of still framing your identity as a function of the very system you don't identify with. Instead of picking one of the snowflake, non-binary words to describe your identity, why not just say you reject the notion of a gender binary and leave it at that? It makes even less sense in that if you were born male, how do you even know what identifying as female is? For that matter, how do you know what identifying as male is? When I probe for this answer elsewhere, it almost always comes back to perceived gender roles, which then gets me back to step one of, 'Why even accept gender roles?'
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May 22, 2015 06:12
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twodot posted:You're the one who wanted to know which of your questions are stupid and why, it's not my fault you asked so many stupid questions that I got tired of explaining why your questions are stupid (I addressed them in order). I specifically included an invitation to call attention to questions I missed in case you thought that you asked a defensible question I didn't address, but you declined for reasons unstated. I didn't because i don't think you are qualified or capable of answering them. Thanks for your effort up now i guess, if it was the best you could do.
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May 22, 2015 06:29
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I love how the op has only posted in this thread twice. He just needed to give a gentle push to start the shitshow rolling downhill.  (P.S. Tautologicus is trolling the poo poo out of you guys.)
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May 22, 2015 07:24
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Tautologicus posted:I didn't because i don't think you are qualified or capable of answering them. Thanks for your effort up now i guess, if it was the best you could do. edit: Captain Bravo posted:(P.S. Tautologicus is trolling the poo poo out of you guys.) twodot fucked around with this message at 07:32 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 07:26
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I mean you could literally look 6 or 7 posts up and see my actual questions, or we could do this song and dance routine ad infinitum. Doesn't matter to me at this point since I don't see anyone with enough self-awareness in here to give any interesting enough answers to what I asked, besides the people asking questions similar to mine.
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May 22, 2015 07:33
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Tautologicus posted:I mean you could literally look 6 or 7 posts up and see my actual questions, or we could do this song and dance routine ad infinitum. Doesn't matter to me at this point since I don't see anyone with enough self-awareness in here to give any interesting enough answers to what I asked, besides the people asking questions similar to mine. edit: To be clear, you're asking for me to pick out your non-stupid questions, after I've already determined all of your questions are stupid. This is a ridiculous exercise to expect of me, when it's obvious you are using a different standard than I am. twodot fucked around with this message at 07:38 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 07:35
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theseTautologicus posted:A hypothetical trans person's sex is male at birth. However they believe they are female. Do they personally believe their sex or their gender is female? Is it other's responsibility to accept that their sex or their gender is female? twodot posted:I addressed eight of your questions that were unambiguously stupid. Why is it so hard for you to identify which of your questions are not stupid? I wasn't even cherry-picking, I went in the order that you posted. Zzzzzx
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May 22, 2015 07:37
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Or reply to literally any ashgromnie post, who for the record is not in agreement with me on any single thing in the history of knowledge, this just happens to be a wild coincidence. This is only so you feel like youre doing something. Personally i havent found your input valuable because you have misconstrued several key points about my posts that i don't care to go into, because i doubt you have the ability or interest to understand what i am going to say, not that it's difficult, just that you're obstinately ideological and reactive towards no end. I'm a decent judge of e-character at this point. But if you press me i will the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 07:43 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 07:40
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Cool.Tautologicus posted:However they believe they are female. Do they personally believe their sex or their gender is female? quote:Is it other's responsibility to accept that their sex or their gender is female? quote:If they believe that their gender is female, is that due to social conditioning? quote:If they were conditioned to be male, have they overcome their conditioning? quote:Or did the conditioning not affect them because of some essentialism? In what way? quote:In this case, I've generally read that this person would believe that they have a "female brain in a male body". Is the male body evidence of their sex and the female brain their gender? If that female brain is not assumed to be socially constructed, and assumed to be the way they were born, what are the characteristics of that femaleness? quote:When someone says "I feel female but everyone thinks I am male", what do they mean by that? quote:In what way? What if the answers given are commonly societally conditioned female gender characteristics? quote:What are we all supposed to accept about transgendered people? You are an idiot.
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May 22, 2015 07:46
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I'm getting the faint impression that you're not giving those questions the attention that they require
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May 22, 2015 07:48
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Tautologicus posted:I'm getting the faint impression that you're not giving those questions the attention that they require
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May 22, 2015 07:52
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I mean I assume they're human beings, I am just trying to understand what the hell they're doing with their lives. I don't feel totally apart from it either, as someone with both male and female qualities imo. But i don't wear panties or want to cut off my dick and balls to make a point, and i realized early on that the important qualities of the genders are inside, not outside. So I want to hear from others about those inner qualities that so clearly make them the gender other than what their body indicates.
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May 22, 2015 07:54
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Tautologicus posted:So I want to hear from others about those inner qualities that so clearly make them the gender other than what their body indicates.
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May 22, 2015 07:58
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twodot posted:I'm getting a strong impression that you're doing a really bad job of trying to gish gallop because you're out of your depth, and you can't distinguish easy to answer questions with hard to answer questions. Are you a primary English speaker? Yes I am, and good thing you bring that up now because the phrase you're looking for is "make a distinction between" not distinguish, which implies trying to see a quality about something else other than from your own thought or action, rather than something you yourself have said or done. I don't need to distinguish if I am the one asking the questions. I am asking about the distinction between sex and gender which you totally glossed over in your almost-answers. Try again??
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May 22, 2015 07:59
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