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twodot posted:This is somewhat reasonable, but surely you realize that zero of your questions were seeking such an understanding? All of them were, in the sense that they were asking for clarification on a seemingly contradictory almost-ideology that is the structure in which people attempt to articulate their inner experience for some reason. Many other people in this thread have pointed this out (edit - the contradictions; everyone loves a good ideology, or Weltanschauung in german is more accurate for what im talking about) the worst thing is fucked around with this message at 09:39 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 08:00
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Tautologicus, I admire your masterclass trolling skills, but I wish you'd use your power for good. 
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May 22, 2015 08:01
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Tautologicus posted:Yes I am, and good thing you bring that up now because the phrase you're looking for is "make a distinction between" not distinguish, which implies trying to see a quality about something else other than from your own thought or action, rather than something you yourself have said or done. I don't need to distinguish if I am the one asking the questions. I am asking about the distinction between sex and gender which you totally glossed over in your almost-answers. Try again?? edit: Oh, wait, I'm back to "You are an idiot."
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May 22, 2015 08:02
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Captain Bravo posted:Tautologicus, I admire your masterclass trolling skills, but I wish you'd use your power for good. I'm getting to it. They just need to listen
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May 22, 2015 08:04
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twodot posted:You so far haven't asked a question about sex and gender, but I'll lay down the truth. Words are words. Different people mean different things when using different words. I personally think it's useful to think of sex as physical characteristics, and gender as cultural norms, but others have other definitions. Actually i asked multiple questions about it. You even quoted them. What is going on here?
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May 22, 2015 08:05
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My overall point is, if you stopped attempting to articulate your inner experience to others in a barely coherent ideology, and instead attempted to use your own words and phrases 100% of the time, you'd feel better and freer and wouldn't have to lash out at people as much for not understanding, because you could be more confident that your words reflected your reality. Hopefully you can see how I got to this point from my posts. But there are a few things that maybe I didn't make clear enough.
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May 22, 2015 08:08
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Tautologicus posted:Actually i asked multiple questions about it. You even quoted them. What is going on here?
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May 22, 2015 08:08
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twodot posted:And the reason why you posted this instead of quoting the answer I gave which was apparently insufficient is? (I know it's because you're an idiot, but I'm curious what excuse you'll come up with) I asked a "is it this or this" question, and you answered with "yes", that's the short answer. I had followup questions for either answer you gave but I wasn't prepared for a yes.
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May 22, 2015 08:11
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Tautologicus posted:I asked a "is it this or this" question, and you answered with "yes", that's the short answer. (edit: to be clear, it's still because you're an idiot) twodot fucked around with this message at 08:17 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 08:12
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twodot posted:And the reason why you can't quote that exchange is? I'm on my phone and since it was the core question of this whole exchange you ought to be able to remember if you have any investment at all in this lil talk. The (first) question again was, if a transexual, assumed to be born male but thinks they are female, says they are female, are they asserting that their sex or their gender is female? I think your answer is gender but that is....problematic if you also say gender is primarily social conditioning.
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May 22, 2015 08:18
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Tautologicus posted:I'm on my phone and since it was the core question of this whole exchange you ought to be able to remember if you have any investment at all in this lil talk. twodot fucked around with this message at 08:26 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 08:23
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I'll be honest, I don't really 'get' the whole transgender thing. I suspect it's a condition that's amplified by the internet, same as bronies and all that Tumblr poo poo like otherkin and such. Like, it existed before, and was probably a massive problem for a very few individuals, but now everyone with a slight mental imbalance is getting loads of reinforcement that 'yeah, cut your dick off dude, the reason you're so sensitive is that you're really a girl in a man's body'. I got moaned at the other day on a video game message board by a transgendered person for getting my concepts all mixed up and calling a 'transwoman' a 'transgendered man'; I couldn't give a poo poo if you want to modify your body, it's yours to do what you want with, but don't get prissy with me when I accidentally get your descriptor confused. Apparently I am "denying people their identity" because I'm a bad man. Joke's on her because I identify as a good man so she's denying me my identity, what a hypocrite.
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May 22, 2015 08:23
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twodot posted:Ah, I see, you don't understand how the word "or" works. In English "or" can either mean exclusive or, or logical or. Assuming you meant logical or, "Yes" is a totally appropriate answer. If you meant exclusive the answer is dependent on your (edit: and their) definition of sex and gender as I explained earlier, which anyone with even a basic education would understand. Hey anybody reading this, does anyone accept this answer? I can't. Sex and gender have standard definitions. The point of scientific definitions is that they are standard. No one gets to choose their definition, because then words lose all meaning. Especially when someone is being indignant about their ideology questioned and can suddenly say "well that's just my definition!" Suddenly you get the sense that you're flailing at shadows.
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May 22, 2015 08:27
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Tautologicus posted:Sex and gender have standard definitions. edit: And just to avoid being accused of a Socratic trap, there's a 100% chance that if you attempt to define them, I will call you an idiot. twodot fucked around with this message at 08:34 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 08:28
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So basically "gender is a social construct" is either a tautology, because it's not asserting anything that's not already in the definition, or when it is said people are just mindlessly repeating the existing definition, and its not an attempt at a new connection? How hosed.
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May 22, 2015 08:34
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Tautologicus posted:So basically "gender is a social construct" is either a tautology, because it's not asserting anything that's not already in the definition, or when it is said people are just mindlessly repeating the existing definition, and its not an attempt at a new connection? How hosed.
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May 22, 2015 08:36
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twodot posted:This is something a child would say. Everyone defines words for themselves. It's socially useful to accept certain definitions of certain words, but you can't possibly claim to possess authoritative definitions of words without explicitly defining them. This is very bad. Most of discussion is agreeing or attempting to agree on definitions. Ok - Sex - your chromosomes and physical characteristics Gender - what a culture thinks a male or female body should do and what a male or female mind should think Good enough to start from?
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May 22, 2015 08:37
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twodot posted:All definitions are tautology. How dumb can one person be? They aren't the first time they're said. And if no one agrees on what has been said, they're still not.
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May 22, 2015 08:38
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Tautologicus posted:This is very bad. Most of discussion is agreeing or attempting to agree on definitions. Tautologicus posted:They aren't the first time they're said. twodot fucked around with this message at 08:43 on May 22, 2015 |
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May 22, 2015 08:41
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There are no axioms in linguistic communication wtf All speech is relational
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May 22, 2015 08:44
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twodot posted:This is something a child would say. Everyone defines words for themselves. It's socially useful to accept certain definitions of certain words, but you can't possibly claim to possess authoritative definitions of words without explicitly defining them. Just for the sake of clarity, there are standard definitions for words, but those definitions themselves can be hard to pin down. For example, if you ask Wikipedia about 'Gender', it'll say something to effect of: code:Where if you were to define sex, you're going to get a very biological answer: code:Also, we can't live in a world where 'everyone defines words for themselves'. That promotes literally the opposite of what language is supposed to accomplish. Sex = reproductive function. Gender = Something that's a lot more difficult to really nail down. A really great example of where this all sucks is with the word 'normal'. For some reason, tumblr has decided that calling someone abnormal is an insult and now demands you call people atypical. That's retarded, because... code:
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May 22, 2015 08:44
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Tautologicus posted:There are no axioms in linguistic communication wtf
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May 22, 2015 08:46
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twodot posted:I'm pretty convinced you aren't a primary English speaker at this point. What's english got to do with it? We're talking about any and all language at this point. You can only make your axiomatic claims within mathematics and then Godel and a couple of other dudes would want a word with you. Circling around the toilet bowl we go..sorry readers.
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May 22, 2015 08:52
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Anyway answer the question on whether a transgender person thinks their sex or their gender is wrong and how This is not aimed at the transgender person themselves but at the gender theory that people bolster their indignancy with.
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May 22, 2015 08:59
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Tautologicus posted:What's english got to do with it? We're talking about any and all language at this point. You can only make your axiomatic claims within mathematics and then Godel and a couple of other dudes would want a word with you. We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, year after year. Running over the same old ground, What have we fo-o-o-und? The same old fears. Wish you were que-e-e-r.
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May 22, 2015 09:28
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It's k, take a couple days to think about it. I'll be around. Cya thread
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May 22, 2015 09:28
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Jeza posted:We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl, Same
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May 22, 2015 09:29
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Tautologicus posted:What's english got to do with it? Oh-h-h, What's English got to do with it? (Got to do with it) What's English? But a quaint old-fashioned language What's English got to do with it? (Got to do with it) Who needs a word when a word can't be defined?
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May 22, 2015 09:55
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Tautologicus posted:Anyway answer the question on whether a transgender person thinks their sex or their gender is wrong and how A transgender person's gender (i.e. innate sense of masculinity or femininity or other) don't match their sex (i.e. male or female physical characteristics). A person's sex can be changed by hormonal alteration and surgery, and there is no proven way to change a person's gender. Thus, the accepted treatment for discomfort caused by being transgender (gender dysphoria) is to change their sex.
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May 22, 2015 11:15
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So is everyone just going to get enraged by Tautologicus, or does anyone have any thoughts on the following question that I've asked a few times that keeps going unanswered:ashgromnies posted:Then what does "transgender" mean if gender is an oppressive system derived from society rather than anything inherent?
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May 22, 2015 13:21
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FROOOOOOOOG posted:A person's sex can be changed by hormonal alteration and surgery, No it can't
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May 22, 2015 13:52
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FROOOOOOOOG posted:A transgender person's gender (i.e. innate sense of masculinity or femininity or other) don't match their sex (i.e. male or female physical characteristics). What is an innate sense of masculinity or femininity? If someone is born female and a tomboy, are they transgender?
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May 22, 2015 14:19
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ashgromnies posted:So is everyone just going to get enraged by Tautologicus, or does anyone have any thoughts on the following question that I've asked a few times that keeps going unanswered: I can't answer for anyone else, but as I've always understood it sex and gender (in terms of identity) are inherent, but not nearly as black and white as many assume. There are several intersex conditions that muddy the waters, for example. It's gender roles that are social constructs. The idea that only men do or can do one thing, and only women the other. There are of course some things that only someone genetically female can do, and same for genetically male. But a gender role is something more like the most basic of basic sex stereotypes "Women aren't good at math or science."
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May 22, 2015 14:38
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AngryRobotsInc posted:I can't answer for anyone else, but as I've always understood it sex and gender (in terms of identity) are inherent, but not nearly as black and white as many assume. There are several intersex conditions that muddy the waters, for example. So you, personally, find "gender is a social construct" to be misleading? Is "gender roles are a social construct" a more appropriate way of saying it?
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May 22, 2015 16:01
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"Gender is a social construct" is a complete nonsense if you even think about it rationally for like ten seconds. Gender roles being constructed makes a lot more sense. If it makes it clearer, gender could be just about replaced in a sentence with male/female brain or mind, distinct from the physical body which is your sex. Gender roles are about what activities and attitudes are labelled as appropriate.
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May 22, 2015 16:20
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What does it mean to have a male or female brain?
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May 22, 2015 16:25
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Series DD Funding posted:What does it mean to have a male or female brain? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders Some of this will be because of neuroplasticity and hormones. But you get the idea.
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May 22, 2015 16:33
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When dysphoria is diagnosed, do people go through any brain examination to determine if their 'brain gender' doesn't match their sex or is it just psychological evaluation? What requirements should be met for transition to be a recommended option?
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May 22, 2015 17:09
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Jeza posted:https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/hope-relationships/201402/brain-differences-between-genders First off that's pseudo scientific nonsense: http://www.amazon.com/Delusions-Gender-Society-Neurosexism-Difference/dp/0393340244 But assuming I accept it as true, why does it matter? If a woman has a """male brain""" should she transition?
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May 22, 2015 17:27
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Paladinus posted:When dysphoria is diagnosed, do people go through any brain examination to determine if their 'brain gender' doesn't match their sex or is it just psychological evaluation? What requirements should be met for transition to be a recommended option? As of right now, there's no brain scans or anything for transitioning. Requirements vary depending on the level of transitioning. For hormones, some will give them simply on informed consent. Many places however require varying lengths of psychological counseling beforehand. Some will also require a period of time living as the target sex, to the degree possible without hormone treatment. For SRS, including everything from male chest reconstruction and breast impants to vaginplasty and phalloplasty, and even certain plastic surgeries on the face, almost everyone will require you to be on hormonal treatment for some time before hand. And they will also almost always require living as the target sex full time for usually a year beforehand. For any of that to even start, there needs to be a diagnosis of gender dysphoria in the first place, usually. There's a lot of usuallys and almost always because some places are more lenient than others in terms of when you'll qualify for, but overall, it's not a simple process. Back to the topic of brain scans, while they are not regularly done as a part of transitioning, they have been done in various studies about gender dysphoria. I don't have any of them on hand anymore, but it has generally been found that there are brain differences and genetic stuff related to hormones in transgendered people. The studies are still fairly young, though, with the earliest of its sort being in the 90s. So they're not really at a place yet where they could be used as a diagnostic tool.
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May 22, 2015 17:31
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