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I've really enjoyed reading most of this thread. Quad, your response on page 1 is amazing, and I wish it was sufficient to appease the masses. The more recent post on CAIS also offers a good example of how transgendered individuals aren't just "changing their minds" or whatever other euphemisms are at play. As someone 'pegged out on the Kinsey scale', as someone else put it, I don't have any personal anecdotes, but this has helped me understand better how to talk to trans individuals in my life (thought the last one I was aware of was in the '90s, it's a safe bet I'm just unaware.)
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May 25, 2015 04:59
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I read somewhere that the term 'Anime Marxist' is 'dogwhistle transphobia'. Is this true? And what does it mean?
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May 27, 2015 13:03
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There's a... community? I guess? Of marxist trans women with anime avatars on Tumblr and Twitter. This person, for example. Not to single her out or anything, she was just the only one whose username I could recall. I don't know what to make of it, myself. HMS Boromir fucked around with this message at 19:20 on May 27, 2015 |
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May 27, 2015 19:17
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THE BOMBINATRIX posted:Unlike:
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May 27, 2015 20:23
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The Valuum posted:Are there a disproportionate amount of trans in the sex industry? Grant, J., Mottet, L., & Tanis, J. (2011). Injustice at Every Turn: A Report of the National Transgender Discrimination Survey (1st ed., p. 53). Retrieved from http://endtransdiscrimination.org/PDFs/NTDS_Report.pdf
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May 28, 2015 08:39
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Often, yes. In many places, it's fully legal to fire (or just not hire in the first place) someone for being trans. Even places where it's not legal, it's easy for an employer to just bullshit up an excuse. One of the few comprehensive surveys on the matter found that 44% of all respondents had been refused a job as a direct result of being trans, and 26% were fired from their current job because of it (Grant, Mottet & Tanis, 2011). So when you have trouble finding work, you start to take drastic measures to make ends meet. Even with non-discrimination laws in place, in effect isn't it largely still legal to fire someone for being a "protected class" under At-Will Employment if it's impossible to prove their membership in that class was why they were fired? Seems like an intractable problem to solve through legislation, besides the most flagrant and obvious examples. Sounds like it requires the change of opinions. ashgromnies fucked around with this message at 14:28 on May 28, 2015 |
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May 28, 2015 14:25
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ashgromnies posted:Even with non-discrimination laws in place, in effect isn't it largely still legal to fire someone for being a "protected class" under At-Will Employment if it's impossible to prove their membership in that class was why they were fired? This would entirely depend on the nature of the business. If say a female strip club had a dancer who decided to transition FtM, obviously they would no longer be able to perform as an erotic female entertainer. This has actually gone to court more than a few times, and having the right "parts" has won every time. Now were that person a cashier at a store, their sexual or gender status in no way affects their ability to do the task, so them being fired for it explicitly would be a lawsuit they would win. No at-will state employer is going to be stupid enough to implicitly fire someone over protected class poo poo though, and the laws are insanely in favor of the employer. If a manger was made uncomfortable by someone being trans, all they would have to do is say "I don't like the watch you are wearing today, you're fired." I've lost jobs because a managers friend needed a job, and was told it was for performance issues, despite my numbers/satisfaction scores/metrics/etc being higher than others, because I was less of a kiss rear end than other people with lower numbers. /end derail
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Jun 1, 2015 16:18
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Old Man Pants posted:No at-will state employer is going to be stupid enough to implicitly fire someone over protected class poo poo though Given that employees win discrimination suits all the time despite every state being at-will, yes they will.
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Jun 1, 2015 21:48
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ashgromnies posted:It just shouldn't matter. A straight man should be down to choke on a dick and catch a load every once in a while, because some women have them. holy poo poo that's a hosed up opinion
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Jun 2, 2015 15:54
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Whorelord posted:holy poo poo that's a hosed up opinion he just might not believe what he is saying
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Jun 2, 2015 16:02
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Often, yes. In many places, it's fully legal to fire (or just not hire in the first place) someone for being trans. Even places where it's not legal, it's easy for an employer to just bullshit up an excuse. One of the few comprehensive surveys on the matter found that 44% of all respondents had been refused a job as a direct result of being trans, and 26% were fired from their current job because of it (Grant, Mottet & Tanis, 2011). So when you have trouble finding work, you start to take drastic measures to make ends meet. drat, I never thought about that. You raised another good point with the employment thing. I always figured it would be hard to get a job, especially in certain areas more than others. Can they actually legally do that poo poo? I imagine it wouldn't really matter since it's probably easy to get away with. I actually thought about that before, around me (rural area) it would be probably impossible to get a job. Even in the city near here I would think it'd be hard. I would guess that trans that are less "passable?" would have a harder time. I stumbled a minute there, is passable the right word?
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Jun 4, 2015 04:44
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The Valuum posted:drat, I never thought about that. You raised another good point with the employment thing. I always figured it would be hard to get a job, especially in certain areas more than others. Can they actually legally do that poo poo? I imagine it wouldn't really matter since it's probably easy to get away with. Of course, non-discrimination laws don't always stop it from happening, they just provide an avenue for the victim to raise hell about it when it does. California is a state that has explicit and comprehensive non-discrimination laws, and yet these things still happen. But there's good news. Recent court decisions have upheld that various portions of the Civil Rights Act also cover trans people, but for the most part it remains to be seen if courts in non-covering states will actually bother enforcing it. As for terminology, that's somewhat of a tricky issue. Even within the trans community there's a lot of disagreement, primarily focusing around whether or not the term "passing" has racist connotations since it calls this to some people's minds. Generally speaking "blending" is preferred but a lot of trans people (myself included) don't really give a poo poo which you use.
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Jun 4, 2015 07:33
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Flagrant Abuse posted:As for terminology, that's somewhat of a tricky issue. Even within the trans community there's a lot of disagreement, primarily focusing around whether or not the term "passing" has racist connotations since it calls this to some people's minds. This is the dumbest poo poo ever. If sexuality becomes race, I think I'd rather leave the planet. Old Man Pants fucked around with this message at 10:40 on Jun 7, 2015 |
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Jun 7, 2015 10:29
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Old Man Pants posted:This is the dumbest poo poo ever. If sexuality becomes race, I think I'd rather leave the planet. That said, a lot of trans people (even trans people of colour) don't care about connotations or whatever, and in fact I can only think of just a couple that I've met who do compared with a bunch who don't.
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Jun 7, 2015 15:06
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Flagrant Abuse posted:That said, a lot of trans people (even trans people of colour) don't care about connotations or whatever, and in fact I can only think of just a couple that I've met who do compared with a bunch who don't. I don't know if it will ever happen, but ideally we would all look at each other as "person" instead of otherizing them with some dumb label. It seems people are so set on otherizing themselves though.
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Jun 7, 2015 21:53
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Old Man Pants posted:I don't know if it will ever happen, but ideally we would all look at each other as "person" instead of otherizing them with some dumb label. It seems people are so set on otherizing themselves though.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:06
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Old Man Pants posted:This is the dumbest poo poo ever. If sexuality becomes race, I think I'd rather leave the planet. I do have to agree with this for the most part. "Passing" is hardly a slur, it's commonly used, and I don't see a real need to change it. Besides it can refer to more than one thing at the same time too so I really don't get the issue here.
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Jun 18, 2015 21:18
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Cat Army 
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FROOOOOOOOG posted:SRS has progressed to a point that the result is exactly as functional as an infertile cis person. The last I heard, this was true for MtF but far less so for FtM, leading to many transmen opting not to have bottom surgery. Has that changed recently, or were you only commenting on MtF?
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Aug 3, 2015 17:53
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Functional, maybe, but the aesthetics are still wrong, something is still just a little bit off. And having genitals be a little bit off is a really strange thing to experience. These people are fooling themselves.
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Aug 3, 2015 21:51
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Wow. This thread is hostile as gently caress. I.. Guess I should have expected that?
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Aug 3, 2015 23:06
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Vagon posted:Wow. This thread is hostile as gently caress. I.. Guess I should have expected that? Probably has something to due with the quality of responses ranging from 'pretty drat good' to 'pretty drat awful'.
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Aug 4, 2015 00:57
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Tautologicus posted:Functional, maybe, but the aesthetics are still wrong, something is still just a little bit off. And having genitals be a little bit off is a really strange thing to experience. These people are fooling themselves. Who even looks closely at a vagina before sticking their dick in it, lol? No one I've had sex with. Regardless though, if you take some chick's pants off and she has a bad neovagina, you can just split for the same reason as if she had an ugly biological vagina and it turned you off. Onlookers might say "what a stupid reason" but that doesn't prevent you from having the right to do it. I think of this issue as being much like having sex with a biracial person who passes as white. If a racist was dating one and found out about their heritage down the line and split, that's their right. You should be able to withdraw consent or end a relationship for any reason. But if they liked the person physically and emotionally up until that point, onlookers should be allowed to say (and would be correct in saying) "she broke up with him solely because of her racial ideology." There is the fertility issue, of course, although it's not really limited to transpeople. So if that's the only issue, it would be more consistent to reject both trans girls and infertile cis women. No one is stopping you from being inconsistent if you want to, though... we just might point it out.
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Aug 5, 2015 20:27
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Where can I read some counter-arguments to anti-trans feminist claims like "[SRS] is an attempt to keep gender stereotypes intact", "transsexuals still subscribe to the traditional stereotype of women", "[trans people construct] a conservative fantasy of what women should be. They are inventing an essence of womanhood which is deeply insulting and restrictive, " or "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves ..." I can't find specific refutations to those claims, instead arguments that modern feminism should generally be more inclusive. And I doubt these particular feminists are talking about genderqueer people, more the people like Caitlyn Jenner who embrace a socially constructed expression of gender as part of a solution to their dysmorphia.
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Aug 6, 2015 21:13
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http://theterfs.com/ hosts a collection of well-argued primers on this garbage. Also I know Rationalwiki is hardly 100% decent but their page on feminist rhetoric being used as a cloak for transphobia makes a bunch of salient points. quote:[...] they slam transgender people in general for "reifying the gender binary." Considering the transgender population is about 1 in 30,000, accusing the transgender community of reifying nearly any oppressive construct is patently absurd and this is obvious to anyone with the most basic understanding of math and group dynamics. quote:Cathy Brennan, for example, literally believes not only that trans women are men, but that they are therefore de facto animals who cannot control themselves (all typos in original):[21] Come to think of it, are there any contemporary schools of feminist thought that use similar reasoning to prop up racism and/or homophobia? All that immediately comes to mind is Redstockings but as far as I know they mostly stopped being a thing as it became less and less acceptable to publicly assert things like "gay women are only doing it for political reasons".
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Aug 6, 2015 22:05
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unlimited shrimp posted:Where can I read some counter-arguments to anti-trans feminist claims like "[SRS] is an attempt to keep gender stereotypes intact", "transsexuals still subscribe to the traditional stereotype of women", "[trans people construct] a conservative fantasy of what women should be. They are inventing an essence of womanhood which is deeply insulting and restrictive, " or "All transsexuals rape women's bodies by reducing the real female form to an artifact, appropriating this body for themselves ..."
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Aug 6, 2015 22:58
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Thanks!
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Aug 7, 2015 14:41
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Weldon Pemberton posted:Who even looks closely at a vagina before sticking their dick in it, lol? No one I've had sex with. You should always give a quick look for sores or whatnot. It's just common sense. Weldon Pemberton posted:bad neovagina Calling this for my noise-rock band name.
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Aug 7, 2015 16:12
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Hi guys, I'm not sure if this is the ideal place to ask this, or if there's a better trans discussion thread somewhere. A person I'm very close to is interested in looking into transitioning and has a lot of unanswered questions. I'm trying to help them find stories and advice from other m2f folks, and S.A. is usually the most useful site for finding personal accounts and information, so figured I'd try my luck here.
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Aug 30, 2015 17:29
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The e/n thread would be better.
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Aug 30, 2015 17:37
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Tautologicus posted:And having genitals be a little bit off is a really strange thing to experience. You don't say?
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Sep 4, 2015 11:22
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EMILY BLUNTS posted:You don't say? Hey, this is the kind of insight you get here in Ask/Tell.
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Sep 4, 2015 13:58
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Tautologicus posted:
Gender does not have any sort of "standard definition". If you ask 100 "men" what it means to "be a man" you will get 100 different answers. You'll also get different answers if you ask 100 "women" what it means to "be a woman". And if you ask these questions in different countries, you'll get different answers as well. Gender is one of those things that "everyone knows" or "everyone accepts" without questioning it. I'm currently reading Straight: The Surprisingly Short History of Heterosexuality. That author uses the Greek word doxa for things that people treat as facts but are really "things that everyone knows". The book goes into the attempt to come up with "scientific" definitions for all sorts of things, such as sexual behavior, and not all 19th Century attempts at defining science are recognized as legitimate (phrenology for example). In the beginning, the word "heterosexual" meant someone who had sex with both men and women; today we call such people "bisexual". Early writers trying to identify what is normal tended to follow Catholic Cannon Law which only permitted sex that was capable of producing pregnancy. Gender is also something that isn't really taught, like math. Instead it is what children learn from seeing adults behave with each other and towards children. One book that goes into this in some good detail is Being Boys; Being Girls: Learning masculinities and femininities I think one passage from that book illustrates how gender gets taught: quote:Staff distinctly discouraged amorous relationships between pairs of boys, less so between girls and boys, and hardly at all between girls, revealing here, possibly unconsciously, a public homophobic attitude towards the boys while perhaps seeing the girls' behaviour in a non-sexual or sexually passive way. If you ask 100 "men" whether it is acceptable or not for men to cry, you will get different answers depending on whether the questioner is male or female, and whether other males can hear the answer. That's gender.
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Sep 19, 2015 22:13
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Is this where we can ask questions about trans stuff? Okay, I don't really see how it's any of my business if someone is a man or a woman. But I have a serious question about youth sports. My daughter plays on a sports team that consists of girls up to the age of 18. On the team is an 18 year old trans man (woman?). I don't really think it's an issue for teams where all the participants are pre-puberty. But while this person may be a woman, physically is a 6 foot man playing against much smaller and weaker opponents. My concern is that I don't want to have my daughter, or others, get seriously hurt by someone who is physically a grown man. But I don't know if I'll be making myself some kind of target for even mentioning it. Should I just keep my mouth shut and accept that this is a thing now?
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Nov 1, 2015 02:45
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Would you be concerned about your daughter playing with a cis girl of the same size? I went to high school with a girl who was 6' 1", and saw a couple others in the hallways who were about that tall, and that was just at one school. If the answer is yes, you would be, then I think your problem is less about whether or not the person is trans, and more about just "okay that's pretty big." If no, then you should probably factor in that trans women (as one is called when one is transitioning from male bodied to female bodied) who've been on hormones long enough (exact time varies from person to person, but for me it was noticeable after six months) often end up with lower testosterone levels than cis women, since we take medicines to block either its production or its reception, depending which specific med, with a corresponding decrease in ability to put on and retain muscle mass.
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Nov 1, 2015 05:26
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Flagrant Abuse posted:Would you be concerned about your daughter playing with a cis girl of the same size? I went to high school with a girl who was 6' 1", and saw a couple others in the hallways who were about that tall, and that was just at one school. I honestly have not seen a cis woman as big as a cis man irl. I know there are some big tough women out there, but I don't personally know them. Also, this "transitioning" you're talking about, is it something they allow minors to do? This person, and others, are not doing any of that. I'm assuming that is for adults. And for the record, yes, I'd be very concerned if 170+ lb girls were playing against 80 lb girls. As someone who's been involved in sports his entire life, that's insane to me to have that kind of size/strength/weight disparity in a contact sport.
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Nov 1, 2015 05:50
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spacetoaster posted:I honestly have not seen a cis woman as big as a cis man irl. I know there are some big tough women out there, but I don't personally know them. Also, this "transitioning" you're talking about, is it something they allow minors to do? This person, and others, are not doing any of that. I'm assuming that is for adults. That being said, I would hope that the sports league your daughter plays in has size classes for their various sports, because in that regard you're right, someone who's 6 feet tall and 170 pounds against someone who's half that weight would be unsporting and dangerous, regardless of whether that person's trans or cis.
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Nov 1, 2015 06:26
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It's not even close to fair. Boys have a huge physical advantage over girls in sports. Allowing trans girls to play sports with biological girls is opening a can of worms that I'd imagine that we'll deal with eventually, but to suggest that it's remotely close to a fair contest is hilarious at best. To that end, it shouldn't be allowed. The game shouldn't be weighted in the favor of the team with the trans woman for gender identity reasons.
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Nov 1, 2015 10:39
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Flagrant Abuse posted:How sure are you that the person in question isn't transitioning? Minors are often allowed to undergo gender transition, because gender dysphoria is a medical condition and transitioning is a treatment that's proven to be effective in a vast majority of cases irrespective of age, so why wouldn't they be? Now, minors do often need parental permission, as they do for many other medical procedures, even other necessary ones, simply because they're minors, and most doctors require either their own evaluation of the patient or a letter from their therapist before starting hormone replacement therapy even regardless of age. However, I personally know a couple people who started on HRT at 16 or 17, and there was a trans dude at my high school who started on testosterone late in his junior year, so it actually is entirely possible that the person in question is on HRT as well, unless you've specifically asked someone who would know for sure. That I did not know. I haven't asked, and there are no outward signs. He's still a big man with a loud voice. And honestly, the only trans person I've ever met (i've got some gay friends who dress up occasionally, but they just think it's a funny thing to do sometimes). Flagrant Abuse posted:That being said, I would hope that the sports league your daughter plays in has size classes for their various sports, because in that regard you're right, someone who's 6 feet tall and 170 pounds against someone who's half that weight would be unsporting and dangerous, regardless of whether that person's trans or cis. No, they don't. It's roller derby and the girls team is 8 years old to 18. I think, for me, it's that the teen girls are pretty thin and wiry even after puberty. But teen boys, start looking like football linebackers after puberty. I guess I'll bring it up as a size/safety issue rather than "Hey! Why are there grown men playing against little girls?!?".
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Nov 1, 2015 15:43
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She. If she's on the girl's team, she's a she. She's probably at least on hormone blockers, if she's out to her parents and at school and she's going to lose all that muscle mass pretty rapidly. There are beefy cis women and tiny, wiry cis men, just FYI. Not all cis men become linebackers the moment the testosterone hits and it's a weird generalisation to make. And there are girls with loud voices, too. 
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Nov 1, 2015 15:57
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:It's not even close to fair. You should do a little bit of reading: The NCAA posted:It is also important to know that any strength and endurance advantages a transgender woman arguably may have as a result of her prior testosterone levels dissipate after about one year of estrogen or testosterone-suppression therapy. According to medical experts on this issue, the assumption that a transgender woman competing on a women's team would have a competitive advantage outside the range of performance and competitive advantage or disadvantage that already exists among female athletes is not supported by evidence. I think the IOC requires 2 years, but the point being this is something people have thought about, and hormones are effective at removing the advantage transwomen would otherwise have. Transwomen are allowed to compete, and have been for a while now (IOC ruling was in 2004 if I remember right), but there are no world class transwoman athletes. By your argument, they should be dominating.
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