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Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


chaos rhames posted:

The empress, potentially Corvo and a few of the revolutionaries.

Dishonored is Dunwall. Duskwall is Blades in the Dark. :v:

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Galaga Galaxian posted:

Dishonored is Dunwall. Duskwall is Blades in the Dark. :v:

:thejoke:

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

QuantumNinja posted:

You saw Last Knights instead of Mad Max?

Mad max I will see in theaters eventually.

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
I've been playing this for a few weeks IRL now, and it's pretty fun. Unfortunately, the quick start guide has woefully incomplete rules for the weirder parts of the setting (ghosts / magic / whispers). Does anyone know where I can find an actual description of, say, Magnitude?

Evil Mastermind
Apr 28, 2008

:siren: Playtest v3 is up!

e: :siren: Rough draft, so it's not complete!

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib

Evil Mastermind posted:

:siren: Playtest v3 is up!

e: :siren: Rough draft, so it's not complete!

Some interesting things of note since the last time I checked (way back in the v1 playtest):

1). Claims. These are a cluster of nodes springing outward from the central point of your Lair connected to one another by various paths. When you decide you want to expand your operation you can seize these holdings by tracing a path from your Lair out through the nodes towards the one you want. Taking a holding is considered a major undertaking that'll result in bad relations with whoever you stole it from and/or good relations with that group's enemies, and in addition to the usual benefits you get from a job laying claim to holdings gives your crew other longterm benefits as well. Examples include fences that give you bonus dice on post-job rolls for burglary scores, gambling and drug dens that provide you with extra coin, lookouts and city records offices to give you better intel, etc.

2). Mayhem is now renamed to Battle.

3). Planning and engagement. I don't recall if this was in the v1 playtest or not but it looks unfamiliar. Basically at the outset of a job, which you still initiative by choosing a plan of attack and giving the GM a detail to an approach-specific question, the GM rolls a number of dice based on how strong the detail in question is. If he rolls high then there are minimal complications at the outset, rolling poorly can mean that the crew has to deal with unforeseen circumstances and difficulties. The three possible twists the GM can draw upon are "someone is separated," "an unexpected threat," and "you lose the initiative." On a 6+ the GM chooses none, on a 4-5 he chooses one, on a 1-3 he chooses two.

4). For the Teamwork section the actions that the person On Point can take has been pared down to Lead a Group Action and Set-Up, no more Overcome. Likewise, the Follow Through action has been taken out for those on Backup, though Set-Up still exists and still gives an effect bonus to the next person who capitalizes on your set-up.

5). Changes to action rolls. There's no more +1d if the target matches your background, now anyone can add +1d to any roll by Pushing and accepting 2 stress. This is in addition to being able to take +1d for a Devil's Bargain. Taking Desperate moves now gives you a bonus XP each time you do so which you can apply towards advancements (as a supplement, not entirely on their own, i.e. if you have some regular XP you can pad it out with Desperate Move XP but you can't buy new stuff with Desperate Move XP all on its own).

6). Playbook moves seem to be in the process of getting changed around some, still a lot of "get +1d when" but now everybody gets a move that gives them some sort of advantage against ghosts. The Hound looks to be getting renamed to the Shrike. The state of the playbooks is kind of rough in this draft, a number of placeholders and unfinished move lists.

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
I like the skill regrouping and resistance computations. Characters are going to end up feeling more 'real' instead of hyper-specialized, wich is good all around. Stalk looks to have been wrapped up into Discern, which is not particularly unexpected.

In general, the rules look a lot cleaner. I am not sure how I feel about the removal of background bonuses, but I would also like to see Vice / Heritage bonuses, so maybe I'm just wrong about the whole thing. I don't like the 'Extra Time' option for a partial outcome; it seems far safer than the other more-concrete outcome options. It also argues for timing windows for more jobs, which I expect will become more frequent as a result.

The modifications for the crew are pretty much good all-around. The crew attributes were the worst thing to manage, and they felt like a weird thing to consider when trying to advance a crew in play. The development roll still seems like it needs work to me; if you use the previous character creation rules where everyone gives +1/-2, you are, by default, throwing 4 dice if you mess with a single crew the first session with 3 players. Maybe getting :20bux: all the time isn't bad, though.

This new playtest would be better if it had the Effects page in it.

EDIT: Removed statistical analysis of new effects system speculation; he said the page will be out soon.

QuantumNinja fucked around with this message at 16:24 on Jun 2, 2015

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

Yeah the main thing I'm interested in is the double roll/effects change if there is one.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
Played this today. The hardest thing to wrap my head around was the skill names, but I love how physical combat is A Specialty instead of a requirement.

DalaranJ
Apr 15, 2008

Yosuke will now die for you.
So I was trying to assit my players in filling out their crew sheet and one of them asked "What's tyhe difference between 'implements', 'supplies', and 'tools'? Does anyone have any idea?

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Pictured: Poster prepares to celebrate Holy Communion (probablY)

This avatar made possible by a gift from the Religionthread Posters Relief Fund

DalaranJ posted:

So I was trying to assit my players in filling out their crew sheet and one of them asked "What's tyhe difference between 'implements', 'supplies', and 'tools'? Does anyone have any idea?

Supplies are for everything, so for getting equipment for your teams, bribes out and so on. I am unsure how to differentiate between the other 2 though.

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

Downloaded the new quick start and I actually don't get how effects work now, it seems like a GM arbitrary thing?

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
The current playtest (v3) is inconsistent with the v3 Effect page we saw. They're still very much in flux. He said this on G+:

John Harper posted:

Yes, the action results will be tweaked slightly to accommodate this version of effects. For now, treat all successful results as simply "you do it". Critical results might add potency, or something else. Still pondering that part.

The game has now been divided into two resolution mechanics: the "Simple Obstacle" and the "Complex Obstacle". Here how he has defined Simple Obstacles in QS v3:

Quick-Start Guide, v3 posted:

Simple Obstacles
Not every situation and obstacle requires a clock. Use clocks when a situation is complex or layered, otherwise resolve the result of an action with a single roll.

(Note that the prose is now internally inconsistent; the same page suggests that a Simple Obstacle is 4 segments.) To explain how these should be used, Harper suggested you jettison the clock mechanism unless the obstacle is a Huge Problem:

John Harper posted:

Complex obstacles can't be dealt with in one action. That's why they're complex.

The immediate effect of your action is still great -- it's just that there's other stuff left to do. You can have a great day working on a project, but that doesn't mean you finish it in one go. If you could, it would be a simple obstacle.

The moral is: use more simple obstacles. Save the clocks for things that are actually complex. I'll make this clearer in the text.

This explanation was in response to someone pointing out that v3 has a reduction in expected effect numbers over v2, and that a crit can no longer clear a 6-segment clock. (Resolving a 6-segment clock has gone from 1-3 actions to 3-4.)

For personal commentary, this was not a Good Improvement. Dropping effect dice was a Good Improvement. But Harper slowed down the clock resolution system so much that he was forced to add a fast resolution mechanic alongside it. I'm sad to see the system go that way, because I did 5-6 sessions of the v2 quick-start guide and 6-segment clocks felt good: on a lucky roll, you'd blow through it, and on a gently caress-up you were in the poo poo trying to deal. To contrast, in v3 the GM must narratively decide now if either "things happen now" or "things happen over 3-4 PC actions." It felt better when the players had a potential to breeze though something, but the dice controlled if it took them 1-2 more actions (or got them in serious trouble). A place's Locks maybe shouldn't be resolved immediately, but they also probably also shouldn't take us around the entire table to get them open. I also expect that a 10-segment combat clock will feel twice as long and grueling as it did before.

All that said, I haven't seen a completed copy of the game. I'm still hopeful that it's a blast to play, because the v2 quick-start guide was amazingly fun. Maybe this all gets sorted out closer to the final release, but I am surprised that he's expressed so much uncertainty about the mechanics.

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

Eh, I'm not too worried with how much Harper changes things from version to version (the latest version of his ww2 PbtA game is drastically different from even last 2-3 versions), and judging by playtest feedback and G+ feedback he's really listening to fans following along. It's a stepping stone and I like the idea of effects but feel there is a more elegant way of rolling them in.

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
In the V3 playtest I was in, there was generally "single action", "Single action if you crit" or "2-3 action" things. Anything else was too complicated to do during a heist, or would be done by multiple people as multiple smaller checks, or just be taking 1 stress to give a teamwork die.

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
Did that playtest use explicit clocks?

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.

QuantumNinja posted:

Did that playtest use explicit clocks?

Yeah, the GM said "This is gonna be a 6 clock because it's a hard row to hoe."

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
I assume your kidding, but the v2 QS guide pretty explicitly suggested making and revealing clocks to your players for things, in a "write it on an index card and put it in the middle" sort of way.

E:

Blades QS v2, p. 22 posted:

Make a progress clock or tick one down. Keep a stack of index cards handy. Make clocks like crazy! Keep them out where everyone can see.

That's literally one of the GM Moves the game.

QuantumNinja fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 23, 2015

Golden Bee
Dec 24, 2009

I came here to chew bubblegum and quote 'They Live', and I'm... at an impasse.
We were playing in Hangouts so it wasn't viable.

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
I don't think that properly describes the disparity. The game is pretty clearly built around making and using these clocks everywhere, so disregarding the mechanism forgoes a pretty serious chunk of how the system is fundamentally supposed to work. The "multiple smaller checks" and "2-3 checks" correspond directly to "fill up this clock with your actions", and revealing the amount of the clock left to the players helps them gauge difficulty and manage resources during play. That information allows players to make decisions like "should I really push this roll / take stress to aid this person if there's only the one segment left?" Moreover, the "single action if you crit" is exactly what I described as feeling good in v2 and being missing from the current write-up of the game thanks to the way the math works now, so it's pretty clear that this is something that needs to be addressed in the rules. Immediately adding that house-rule during your first session seems like a good indicator that something is missing.

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
Might want to bring it up with John Harper then if he's still soliciting feedback.

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

So I'm just wondering how would people here handle effects? I really like the skill resolution being tied to actual skills and not stats or specific "moves" like in other PbtA games, and I don't mind the Xd6, keep highest (because rolling more dice is fun). Using them as a baseline for success based on the number isn't terrible in my opinion (with the roll on the skill check adding to that), but it still feels kind of "meh".

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.
Quickstart Revision 3, Draft 3 is up.

(I'm assuming it's okay to link this here since John posted it publicly to the Google+ group for the game, not a backer-only Kickstarter update, but just in case there are weird permissions I've linked to the G+ post rather than the PDF directly.)


Fenarisk posted:

So I'm just wondering how would people here handle effects? I really like the skill resolution being tied to actual skills and not stats or specific "moves" like in other PbtA games, and I don't mind the Xd6, keep highest (because rolling more dice is fun). Using them as a baseline for success based on the number isn't terrible in my opinion (with the roll on the skill check adding to that), but it still feels kind of "meh".

The newest Quickstart has Effect being determined more by fictional positioning, with shifts in the magnitude based on whether you have a significant advantage or disadvantage in Quality, Scale, or Potency. It also makes an explicit distinction between simple actions that don't require a clock to track progress, and complex actions that do. You can still get increased or reduced effects based on the action roll results, and several character talents have been reworked to give bonuses on effect factor.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Well, here is a thing I wrote up real quick for my group, based on the changes I noticed:


- Gangs now have Claims (Turf, fences, resources, etc) that are laid out in a branching grid and have to be seized from other powers via scores.
- Attributes and Action ratings have been completely changed. Blade/Book/Cloak/Mask are gone, as are the effects. Instead now the action categories are Guile, Insight, Resolve, and Vigor and they function also as the old effects.

- Several actions are gone, replaced with new ones. Stalk (merged into Prowl), Slip(Replaced by Finesse), Secure(replaced by Finesse), and Supply are gone. New are Finesse (Stalk+Slip), Handle (for handling vehicles, everyday labor tools/tasks, etc), Skirmish (open deadly combat), and Invoke (The occult and the arcane, dark arts).
- Skills that remain but have shifted in focus/meaning: Mayhem is now just being a brute, breaking poo poo, and non-lethal brawling. Attune now mostly deals only with ghosts and spectrology instead of the occult in general. Murder is now pretty much literally one-sided murder (and getting away with it). Slitting a guard's throat from the shadows? Murder. Shooting him in ambush? Skirmish. Adjust accordingly guys.

- Your "effect" rating in Guile/Insight/Resolve/Vigor is based on how many of the 4 skills each covers you have with at least one dot. (EG: if you have 3 Insight skills with at least 1 pip, your Insight level is 3).
- Each Effect category is now used to resist a specific type of consequence (Vigor resists physical strain/injury, Insight resists deception and perception, etc)
- You can now inflict 2 stress on yourself to add +1d to a roll, add Potency to your effect, or take action despite severe harm.
- Clocks haven't changed too much (I think) but have been clarified.
- Actions are reworked. Controlled/Risky/Desperate remains, but now a 6 is always a "You Do It", as is a 4-5 (at cost), even on Desperate rolls. Now the level of risk determines just how bad a 1-3 is or what a 4-5 result will cost you, and it is still possible to slide from Controlled to Risky to Desperate with bad rolls.
- Effect is very different now, there are 3 grades: Limited, Standard, and Great effect which score 1, 2, and 3 ticks on a clock respectively. Initial effect level depends on the action, just like the position of the action. (EG: Carefully walking across a beam would be a controlled action, but limited effect on a racing clock, meanwhile running across the beam would be risky, but have a standard effect.) Certain factors such as quality, scale, and potency can also influence effect.
- NEW MECHANIC: The Fortune Roll. A handy tool for the GM to determine some uncertain outcomes (especially ones the PCs aren't directly involved in EG: Most of the Lampblack/Redsash gangwar conflict)
- The Five Plans are now The Six Plans. New Plan: Transport Plan
- A Score now begins with The Engagement Roll. This is a Fortune roll witha number of dice based on how resistant/prepared the target is to the PC's plan (the better prepared the target, the less dice). A 1-3 means the target is in control of the situation when the action starts and the PCs are in trouble, 4-5 means both sides are on equal footing, while a 6 means the PCs have some kind of advantage over the situation.
- Teamwork has changed quite a bit. There is no more overcome action. Only Lead a Group Action and Set up remain. Note, Teamwork moves are NOT REQUIRED. You can do solo moves as well to pick that lock or whatever, so its basically like Overcome, except everyone else doesn't eat stress if you cock it up.
- Characters not on point can still spend 1 stress to give a bonus die or choose to face/resist a danger instead of the one on point.
- You can now trigger each playbook advancement item multiple times at the end of a score! However you're limited to 1 playbook advancement per session/score.
- Gather information is now a downtime action

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


Just noticed the new rule for clearing Stress. Now instead of a dice roll you simply clear 1+Vice levels of stress. You can clear 4 more stress if you overindulge, but that is it. There isn't even the option to engage in Vice again as a downtime action.

Clearing stress just got a lot harder.


[edit] Oh wait, you get two downtime actions and one, both or neither can be vice. I'm bad at reading. :downs: Though stress lowering is still rougher now, it feels.

Anyways, here are some notes my GM pal wrote up that are better/clearer than mine. http://pastebin.com/yzKC7CEW

Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 17:26 on Jun 26, 2015

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

I may just be a slight sadbrains but other than still trying to understand effects, I'm digging the changes all around, and really want to try running this for a group to see how this plays.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


What are you having trouble understanding about effects?

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

Galaga Galaxian posted:

What are you having trouble understanding about effects?

I'm getting that the base is 1-3 depending on the situation, modified by the character's attribute level (which is equal to the highest skill I think?), and modified by how they're tackling the situation (fine items, etc). But is the base skill roll adding to the base effect rating?

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Fenarisk posted:

I'm getting that the base is 1-3 depending on the situation, modified by the character's attribute level (which is equal to the highest skill I think?), and modified by how they're tackling the situation (fine items, etc). But is the base skill roll adding to the base effect rating?

I think you're conflating Effects and Resistance a bit; in the new version they're two separate things.

Effects are the PCs' ability to overcome obstacles. The base level is established by the fiction (e.g. trying to convince the suspicious guard to let you pass might get you a lesser effect than just sneaking past him), but can be modified by a couple of factors:
  • A critical success on the action roll gives you increased effect; a 4/5 result in a Controlled circumstance can give you reduced effect.
  • The three Effect Factors (Quality, Scale, and Potency) can each increase or decrease your Effect Level by one (e.g. if you have fine forged identification you might get +1 level from Quality when conning the guard; a magic potion of invisibility might give you +1 from Potency to sneak past).
That's it for calculating Effect levels.

Resistance is for determining how much Stress you have to take to avoid something nasty happening. You roll your Attribute rating (which is not your highest Action in the category but rather how many Actions in the category you have at least one dot in), and you have to take (6 - the highest-showing die) Stress to avoid the Consequences.

It's a little confusing because both of these used to be covered by Effect rating, but that's no longer the case.

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

All I see from this is that with most clocks being a base of 4 segments, you would need to roll multiple times usually to convince the guard to let you pass. Unless that's a simple one-off roll and it counts towards a total clock of something else now.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


That is only if that guard is the only one represented by the clock. If that is the case, it should be a simple obstacle most likely, not having a whole clock dedicated to it. The clocks are meant to be a loosely defined obstacle. If you succeed in a sway roll to convince that guard to let you in, but don't fill up the "Guards" clock completely, maybe another guard becomes a problem later on, to be swayed, snuck past, or otherwise neutralized.

And you don't have to knock down each clock before moving on to another. Maybe now that you've bluffed past it makes more sense to work on that "Locate the target" clock. The GM could potentially thrust the Guard clock back in your face as part of a consequence.

Galaga Galaxian fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Jun 26, 2015

GimpInBlack
Sep 27, 2012

That's right, kids, take lots of drugs, leave the universe behind, and pilot Enlightenment Voltron out into the cosmos to meet Alien Jesus.

Fenarisk posted:

All I see from this is that with most clocks being a base of 4 segments, you would need to roll multiple times usually to convince the guard to let you pass. Unless that's a simple one-off roll and it counts towards a total clock of something else now.

Depends on how you're setting up the challenge, really. If the guard is just one guy on the door and he himself is the only guard-type obstacle you have to deal with, then yeah, it could be a simple action. In which case the Effect Level is more down to fictional positioning than clock segments--in this case, maybe a limited effect means "he lets you in, but he's keeping an eye on you/noting you down to follow up on later" while a great effect means "he gives you full unfettered access to the place."

If "Guards" is a major, long-term obstacle with a countdown clock, then yeah, it's a multi-roll sequence of bluffs, verbal feints, and brazen bullshitting, but once you've cleared the obstacle, the guards are no longer a problem. Like, you've convinced them that everything's in order and you have the run of the place.

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

Ok, I think I get it now, thanks for the explanations, I won't feel like an idiot running this now if the opportunity comes up soon.

Doodmons
Jan 17, 2009
I must say I'm liking the changes. I think I'll need to playtest this draft to get a feel for it, but it's looking good.

Galaga Galaxian
Apr 23, 2009

What a childish tactic!
Don't you think you should put more thought into your battleplan?!


There has been another playtest version, this time the GenCon Edition.

Haven't read it yet myself, but according to my GM, the attributes and actions list has been reduced again:



Getting a bit slim, I guess less is more.

SilverMike
Sep 17, 2007

TBD


Makes sense to me, you allow the players to define how they're fighting and talking by their actions instead of having three different skills for each.

Fenarisk
Oct 27, 2005

Huh, I didn't think I would like it cut down that much but I actually do, the skills are elegant and not too specific/not too far reaching.

QuantumNinja
Mar 8, 2013

Trust me.
I pretend to be a ninja.
Every time I see this game, I get a little more convinced that John Harper doesn't know what game he wants to make. The system doesn't seem to be strictly improving, just getting increasingly dissimilar from where he started. (I typed out a long list of what I meant, but posting them here where John can't see them probably isn't very effective other than just complaining. So I posted several of them on the G+ group instead.)

E:

SilverMike posted:

Makes sense to me, you allow the players to define how they're fighting and talking by their actions instead of having three different skills for each.

But it's totally important to indicate if they're attuning with a spirit or invoking it :v:

QuantumNinja fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Aug 5, 2015

Kai Tave
Jul 2, 2012
Fallen Rib
On the one hand having a skill called "Murder" was kind of cute, but on the other hand I was never fully satisfied trying to differentiate between three different skills for hurting other people and where one skill left off and another began, so I can't say I'm too sorry to see the skill list consolidated.

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SilverMike
Sep 17, 2007

TBD


QuantumNinja posted:

But it's totally important to indicate if they're attuning with a spirit or invoking it :v:

Check the descriptions for those; Attune seems spirit-oriented, Invoke is more general purpose occult-oriented. Given that spirits are prevalent in the setting, I'm alright with the split. But I wouldn't cry over them being consolidated if room's needed for another skill.

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