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I think one of more memorable moments when I ran Wicked Ones was the PCs facing a proper higher tier adventurer for the first time. Since the adventurer was one tier higher than them, it meant that they were less effective against it and it took some smart play from them to bring the adventurer down: it was a real struggle and showed the PCs that they had to be more careful going forward since there were plenty of forces that could kick their rear end if they weren't careful/didn't run away at opportune moments. Overall I think the part of Wicked Ones I liked the most was the way that adventurers were structured: the health/moves/passive system means that you can create some truly memorable encounters without much prep: especially effective was a berserker I created that became more effective (and thus harder to kill) the less health they had. The combat was truly a highlight of that campaign, where usually I find combat in most games not at all that interesting.
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Jan 14, 2024 16:44
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As someone also looking to gm for the first time (aside from a failed attempt back in 2021) I was wondering how much of the system/setting I should try and get the players to learn before running a session. Asking them to read the fairly robust rulebook seems like a lot, but at the same time the rules and the world have enough to them that it'd be hard to jump straight into the action and teach on the fly.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:18
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My group has played Blades for like 3 years now and we still struggle sometimes with the change in mindset necessary coming from traditional d20 systems. If you want to play this system and enjoy it, IMO you have to know the rules and more importantly, the intended flow of the game. That video linked upthread (the one highlighting the importance of the GM defining the threat prior to the action roll) is a great primer for this. But it's only one of many major differences between Blades and other systems.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:23
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Vagabong posted:As someone also looking to gm for the first time (aside from a failed attempt back in 2021) I was wondering how much of the system/setting I should try and get the players to learn before running a session. Asking them to read the fairly robust rulebook seems like a lot, but at the same time the rules and the world have enough to them that it'd be hard to jump straight into the action and teach on the fly. https://bladesinthedark.com/basics The SRD page has a pretty decent overview of the system.
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Jan 23, 2024 17:32
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Vagabong posted:As someone also looking to gm for the first time (aside from a failed attempt back in 2021) I was wondering how much of the system/setting I should try and get the players to learn before running a session. Asking them to read the fairly robust rulebook seems like a lot, but at the same time the rules and the world have enough to them that it'd be hard to jump straight into the action and teach on the fly. As far as the setting goes, if they just understand that it's basically a Victorian crime drama where spiritualism actually works and ghosts are everywhere and are willing to roll with it when you say things like "the sun broke along with death, it's always night" and "lightning hooks are basically an electrified ghost-grabber, train engineers use them all the time" they'll be fine. There's a lot of detail if they're interested, but getting the basic vibe is the important part.
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Jan 23, 2024 19:04
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adding to this "everyone is packed in behind ghost walls you can't flee to the wilderness because there is no wilderness"
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Jan 23, 2024 19:08
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Vagabong posted:As someone also looking to gm for the first time (aside from a failed attempt back in 2021) I was wondering how much of the system/setting I should try and get the players to learn before running a session. Asking them to read the fairly robust rulebook seems like a lot, but at the same time the rules and the world have enough to them that it'd be hard to jump straight into the action and teach on the fly. The system: not much, because the core mechanics are very easy to pick up, and you can just make sure you remind people about pushing themselves several times at first. It should stick fairly easily. The setting: as much as possible; if the players are not familiar with the setting, or at least the general aesthetic/vibe/real-world place and time Doskvol is based on, the game will be much drier, much less interesting, and much less fun, because your players will lack the basic fictional touchstones required to breathe any kind of life into their narration and actions. I started a BitD group a few months ago with one player who had never played RPGs before, one who'd played several but never played anything FitD, and one who had played a large amount of FitD games but not BitD specifically. The instructions I gave to all three players as prep was: - read the game overview, pages 1-9. - read the setting touchstones on pp. 280-281 and 308. - read (and make an effort to internalise) the entire setting stuff on pp. 237-255. This is 30 pages of material so not exactly a big ask for anyone, and will make the game go much smoother for everyone. I would also heavily recommend that you do a movie night a few days before your session 0 and sit everyone through some amount of Peaky Blinders, Ripper Street, The Sopranos, From Hell, The Limehouse Golem, your favourite Sherlock Holmes adaptation, etc. to give everyone some shared visual imagery to draw on.
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Jan 23, 2024 20:55
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They don't need an in-depth knowledge of the setting. As the posters above said, keep it to the broad strokes, and let everything else come up through play. Character and crew creation prompts them to link into existing factions, so give them some options at that point. The key thing is that the details of the setting aren't fixed, so that there's room for everybody to create something. If you ask them to memorise the list of factions and districts then why would they bother to try and add anything?
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Jan 23, 2024 22:32
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And when doing the character and gang creation don’t even show them the faction list. Pick a couple to start. Any time I’ve brought rival gangs up, it gets overwhelming and things grind to a halt.
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Jan 24, 2024 06:05
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Yeah, ask them what sort of themes they want to deal with in the game, anti-colonialism, worker's rights, a straight uncomplicated heist game etc. and then choose the gangs based on that.
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Jan 24, 2024 06:35
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Vagabong posted:As someone also looking to gm for the first time (aside from a failed attempt back in 2021) I was wondering how much of the system/setting I should try and get the players to learn before running a session. Asking them to read the fairly robust rulebook seems like a lot, but at the same time the rules and the world have enough to them that it'd be hard to jump straight into the action and teach on the fly. Good news! The system works incredibly well with players doing almost 0 reading, since it's more narrative based and actually works really well if folks just say "I want to do <a thing>" and then you say "Ok, that sounds like and X roll.." and explain the stakes, position and effect. I'd say asking them to read a bit about the setting is good or have them listen to one of the popular AP podcasts to get the mood, but that's also not entirely necessary. Even just "Hey, you remember Dishonored?* Well the setting is kinda like that..." It's far more important players have the general idea of what the gameplay loop and genres Blades emulates well; you're scoundrels doing heists and rarely getting away clean. If they're familiar with other RPGs it's important they kbow how fiction first gaming is very different from other games, a session 0 where folks figure out what they want to play and y'all hash out the crew type and general goals is good, followed by maybe a bit more hand-holdy tutorial heist and downtime in session 1. Something I've found that helps is getting the crew's input on what kind of crew they want and what main focus they want, but you the GM make the crew if they're not familiar with the game. If anyone wants to change playbooks or the group thinks another crew or advances makes more sense after they get the hang of them game let them swap. *Or any of the other inspiration sources.
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Jan 24, 2024 06:37
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Coolness Averted posted:folks just say "I want to do <a thing>" and then you say "Ok, that sounds like and X roll.." Note that players choose the action they want to roll, not the GM, so you should probably avoid doing this from the start and just hand your players a print-out of the short action descriptions from the book. (The roll20 sheets have those descriptions as a popup when you hover over the action names, for anyone playing on that.)
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Jan 24, 2024 08:48
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GM sets scene and establishes threat Players choose how they want to approach it (which Action) GM sets Position and Effect accordingly Action roll happens Repeat It’s really intuitive and natural once you get it set in your mind. Try to focus on the scene level and not be too granular to keep things moving. Bottom Liner fucked around with this message at 08:57 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 08:54
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Lemon-Lime posted:Note that players choose the action they want to roll, not the GM, so you should probably avoid doing this from the start and just hand your players a print-out of the short action descriptions from the book.
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Jan 24, 2024 09:10
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That works fine generally. It’s common for a player to describe what they want to do broadly and the GM replying with “ok that sounds like X Action”. The player can change their mind if it doesn’t fit what they think their character is doing once position and effect is laid out.
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Jan 24, 2024 09:23
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Coolness Averted posted:You're right the player chooses what rolls to make and only after being informed of the stakes and it's important to remember that. For example nitpicking over whether sway or consort is the right stat for a roll is bad, but I don't see the harm in "tell me what you want to do in the narrative, and we'll figure out how the system can get us there." Especially when players are learning the game. Has it lead to issues in forged or PbtA games you've played? It's just really easy for people who have played other games to fall into the trap of having the GM go "give me a X roll" (or having players go "I want to roll X to do Y") which is definitely not the way FitD or PbtA are meant to be played. That's why I recommend being rigorous and staying completely away from the GM having any kind of input on what players roll, other than clearly stating what impact the characters' actions (and not the player's Actions) are having on position and effect. Obviously this isn't a problem if everyone is intimately familiar with how FitD works, but that's not going to be the case with a first-time GM and players who probably have never played BitD. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Jan 24, 2024 |
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Jan 24, 2024 10:51
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I need some advice on something basic. Picking the detail for the plan. Is that something I should have come up with in advance when I'm prepping the heist? At least for the approaches the gang is most likely to take. Any time I try to play through it we always get bogged down in investigation rolls to come up with multiple options and I scramble to come up with something.
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Feb 2, 2024 00:49
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Demon_Corsair posted:I need some advice on something basic. Picking the detail for the plan. Is that something I should have come up with in advance when I'm prepping the heist? At least for the approaches the gang is most likely to take. Any time I try to play through it we always get bogged down in investigation rolls to come up with multiple options and I scramble to come up with something. Or is the issue more A. The players are trying to roll study and survey to try and mitigate risk/safely 'look before they leap'? B. They don't have enough hooks or ideas to know what to do, so they're using the roll as a way of asking for more during a score? C. During the planning stage they're trying to -as players- map out every detail before starting/actually plan the heist instead of broad strokes? Those three all stem from not quite getting the flow of blades and you need to have a conversation so they know how the game works, what to expect from you as the GM and what they need to bring as players. For A. Make sure they know you're a fan of the characters and will never set them up to fail with 'gotchas', they're playing scoundrels who take risks, and the system will not let them -as players- mitigate that risk through planning. There won't be freebie 'perception' style checks to make doing the thing easier, nor will you punish them for not knowing a thing OOCly before acting. For B. Let them know they can help insert details with flashbacks and rolls. Also give the players a decent amount of 'free' info without rolls that they should just know by being characters in the setting, but if they start asking for "Ok, but when is Johnny Two-Shanks most likely to be alone so we can nab him?" that should require a gather intel roll. for C. Remind them that they as players don't need to come up with all that stuff, once again there will not be a gotcha of "Because you didn't poke the floor with a 5 foot pole you've now fallen into a trap!" Based on the engagement roll the plan is either hosed, a little rough, or sailing smoothly when you open in media res, and no amount of OOC planning will change that. Just as you're handwaving how many bullets are left in their revolver, you're also handwaving the details of the plan. C. was tricky for my first blades group, because we had a player who was very detail oriented and another who was playing a spider and felt their character would obsess with minutiae and both wound up slowing stuff down trying to know those details before committing to a plan. Coolness Averted fucked around with this message at 01:52 on Feb 2, 2024 |
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Feb 2, 2024 01:47
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Coolness Averted posted:If they don't have a good answer for the detail, then they should use a downtime action to gather intel -and you can provide those potential weak spots to exploit. This is where we generally end up. The crew is thieves so the default is they are doing to sneak in and then they do a few survey rolls to "find" a good access point. Should I just tell them to pick a likely way in and go? Should they just say there is a door on the roof we can try to access, or a second story window, vs them do a study for me to tell them those are options? I'm just not sure who should be making up the detail, or where that info comes out. If it's a study or a survey to figure that out, then I should probably prep a few options because it turns out I suck coming up with those on the fly. If that's something the players can just make up because the characters would know, then I can just tell them that the detail is on them and roll with it. I really try to stress the idea of flashbacks to avoid overplaning, and oceans eleven is practically required watching to try to drill in the idea. If I ever get to play this game I want to play a spider that only exists in flashbacks and doesn't actually come on the heist.
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Feb 2, 2024 02:37
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Demon_Corsair posted:This is where we generally end up. The crew is thieves so the default is they are doing to sneak in and then they do a few survey rolls to "find" a good access point. Should I just tell them to pick a likely way in and go? Should they just say there is a door on the roof we can try to access, or a second story window, vs them do a study for me to tell them those are options? For what it's worth, I don't think the intention is for the crew to have to survey to find an access point. They provide the detail, which doesn't have to be that specific--you just want them to zoom in a little from "we sneak in" to "we sneak in across the rooftops." Then you roll engagement and the engagement roll tells you how things are going when the scene opens; when it's lights, camera, action the crew is already on their way in. Maybe one way to put it is: you don't make action rolls until you're on the heist and you're not on the heist until after the engagement roll, and the engagement roll governs making your entry, so it doesn't make sense to make action rolls that affect finding your entry. In order to keep things rolling any detail they volunteer should work (within reason). If they say "we go in through an upstairs window" they shouldn't have to ask you if the place has upstairs windows. quote:I really try to stress the idea of flashbacks to avoid overplaning, and oceans eleven is practically required watching to try to drill in the idea. "Spider that aims to spend the heist in the pub across the street and just chime in with flashbacks and other supportive actions" was exactly the character I played in my group.
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Feb 2, 2024 04:57
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Demon_Corsair posted:This is where we generally end up. The crew is thieves so the default is they are doing to sneak in and then they do a few survey rolls to "find" a good access point. Should I just tell them to pick a likely way in and go? Should they just say there is a door on the roof we can try to access, or a second story window, vs them do a study for me to tell them those are options? Tell them it's too late once the score is going to do investigation rolls.They can do investigation rolls in downtime, (they get one for free if the target is in their regular hunting grounds.) If they do choose to do an investigation roll and succeed give them either a die on the engagement roll or a bonus objective in the score, for a success with complications I'd give a clue to the faction or character's motivation and what faction clock they're working on if any. They make the approach and detail up. Ignore it if it's too annoying it's just a prompt for a very brief outline of the plan. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 05:29 on Feb 2, 2024 |
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Feb 2, 2024 05:24
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Ok, the key part I was missing is that the players have the narrative power to declare what the detail is. The book implies that if the players don't know they should gather information to figure something out. I've been working on a semi-structured skeleton for fleshing out heists. So if I do a decent job describing who is the mark, or what the location is like, then a detail should flow from that pretty easily.
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Feb 2, 2024 18:30
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Coolness Averted posted:If they don't have a good answer for the detail, then they should use a downtime action to gather intel Note that gathering information usually doesn't take a downtime action and is just something the players do freely in the freeplay phase, unless the information is so well hidden that that would need to do a LTP to acquire it. Gathering info also doesn't necessarily require a roll (see p.36 for info). Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 10:11 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 3, 2024 08:05
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Yeah 'gathering information' is not a downtime action it's just a... thing you can do. Like you want to steal something juicy from a rival gang, so you look around for some details on their hideout. The GM mentions some possible details and from there as a player you go "ah OK, they have an underground entrance, therefore we will sneak in through the tunnels".
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Feb 8, 2024 23:40
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Agreed. If someone wants to spend a downtime action prepping for the next score, that sounds like Acquire Asset, and the examples the book gives of temporary assets that can be acquired are one special item or set of common items (enough for a gang of your Tier scale), a cohort (an expert or gang), a vehicle, or a service. But to let the crew use these in the next job either means you have to make the job easier, or throw additional roadblocks at the crew to keep the difficulty up. The latter is plainly unfair, but the former smells a bit suspicious to me. If it's getting a wagon or gondola for a fast escape, that's OK to me, but saying that a service is "the paid-off doorman giving us free entry into the target building" doesn't really sit right with me -- that really feels like it should be an action roll (perhaps as part of a flashback) based on the engagement dice. What if the bribery fails? If it's Acquire Asset-based, there's no downside besides wasting a downtime action. Likewise, saying that the asset is "finding a secret entrance in the sewers" has the same feeling of urgency/risk that demands an action roll rather than a downtime action. The flip side is I would hate for my players to feel like they have to waste downtime actions scouting every score. But I think it's all play it by ear and make sure that the fiction comes first; there's no hard and fast rule.
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Feb 8, 2024 23:57
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I always felt preparing for a score was distinct enough from downtime, and something you did after your downtime actions.
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Feb 9, 2024 02:26
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Captain Walker posted:I always felt preparing for a score was distinct enough from downtime, and something you did after your downtime actions. Downtime isn't the same thing as downtime actions! Downtime is the entire phase, which includes payoff, heat, entanglements, downtime actions, and indulging vice. 
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Feb 9, 2024 10:10
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Lemon-Lime posted:Downtime isn't the same thing as downtime actions! Downtime is the entire phase, which includes payoff, heat, entanglements, downtime actions, and indulging vice. Sometimes downtime turns into a score because each downtime action is something that has the potential to be a scene
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Feb 9, 2024 12:23
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https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/melsonia/swyvers Get the gang together; someone's trying to muscle in on our turf.
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Feb 9, 2024 12:48
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SimonChris posted:https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/melsonia/swyvers It's pure groggy OSR tripe, so thankfully no overlap. Theoretically some of the random tables might not be completely useless for BitD, I guess. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 15:33 on Feb 9, 2024 |
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Feb 9, 2024 13:28
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Lemon-Lime posted:It's pure groggy OSR tripe, so thankfully no overlap. Theoretically some of the random tables might not be completely useless for BitD, I guess. Haven’t read Troika, huh?
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Feb 9, 2024 14:50
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Lemon-Lime posted:It's pure groggy OSR tripe, so thankfully no overlap. Theoretically some of the random tables might not be completely useless for BitD, I guess. I wouldn't by any stretch call Mothership or Troika, the writers' other games, "groggy OSR tripe" so I'm not going to be as completely cynical as that unless I've gravely misread the pitch.
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Feb 9, 2024 15:03
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Bob Smith posted:I wouldn't by any stretch call Mothership or Troika, the writers' other games, "groggy OSR tripe" so I'm not going to be as completely cynical as that unless I've gravely misread the pitch. I've not read Mothership but that is absolutely what I would describe Troika as. The fact that everything in the game has funny psychedelic fantasy flavour text doesn't change anything about the game's mechanics and design philosophy. YMMV, but having taken a look at Swyvers, its mechanics are more of the same and absolutely not anything I'm interested in. 
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Feb 9, 2024 15:32
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Aesthetically and tonally, Troika is great. Really unique stuff, more of the industry needs to be willing to be that weird. Mechanically... well, it's a pretty generic resolution system plus an initiative system that seems like it's more clever than good. I haven't looked at Mothership, but judging by Troika's example Swyvers is probably going to be an inspiring read that mechanically doesn't add much.
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Feb 9, 2024 15:38
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Lurks With Wolves posted:Aesthetically and tonally, Troika is great. Really unique stuff, more of the industry needs to be willing to be that weird. Mechanically... well, it's a pretty generic resolution system plus an initiative system that seems like it's more clever than good. I haven't looked at Mothership, but judging by Troika's example Swyvers is probably going to be an inspiring read that mechanically doesn't add much. Yeah, I can’t object to that characterization of the player facing mechanics. As it says on the Swyver tin: “a lightweight set of rules.” Troika also doesn’t have terribly interesting GM-facing mechanics. Swyver might, if the Kickstarter promises prove out. For whatever reason, good world-generating mechanics often don’t get counted as mechanics, whether it’s Apocalypse World’s Fronts or Electric Bastionland’s district creation rules. We will see what Swyver can muster.
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Feb 9, 2024 16:43
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Ran my first session last night, it went pretty well! Thanks for all the helpful advice, I think keeping the setting explanations short and sweet and then addressing details as they came up was the right move. Everyone pretty quickly got into the swing of things and we managed to wrap up the first score of planting cursed dice in a red sash gambling den before the end of the night, with a few hanging threads that I'm excited to chase up on. I think the only real issues were that I pretty much ignored position and effect in order to keep up momentum, and that I could of pulled my punches less against the PCs; between their pretty high chance of success by default and resistance rolls they can take a lot more punishment than I expected. Overall I think everyone had good fun, and the players seemed to appreciate the more freeflowing rules than what they'd absorbed about RPGs through cultural osmosis.
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Feb 18, 2024 12:52
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Vagabong posted:Ran my first session last night, it went pretty well! Thanks for all the helpful advice, I think keeping the setting explanations short and sweet and then addressing details as they came up was the right move. Everyone pretty quickly got into the swing of things and we managed to wrap up the first score of planting cursed dice in a red sash gambling den before the end of the night, with a few hanging threads that I'm excited to chase up on. I think the only real issues were that I pretty much ignored position and effect in order to keep up momentum, and that I could of pulled my punches less against the PCs; between their pretty high chance of success by default and resistance rolls they can take a lot more punishment than I expected. Overall I think everyone had good fun, and the players seemed to appreciate the more freeflowing rules than what they'd absorbed about RPGs through cultural osmosis. I think ignoring position and effect in a first session is fine, in fact it is my usual approach when teaching first time players the game. And yes, in Blades you can go much harder than you think at first against the players. Keep putting them in difficult situations, they will always have ways to wriggle out of them (mostly) intact. It's one of the best things about the system.
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Feb 18, 2024 13:32
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Just be careful because if you just set everything as risky/standard you will struggle a lot as you keep playing. The game only shines when you use position/effect effectively and games in which you make use of both of them will feel much more tactical and engaging when the narrative that the players weave has an actual effect on the resolution of the rolls. FITD does not work very well IMO if you don’t fully use the mechanisms the way they are meant to be used so although it’s not a big deal ignoring it in the first session, you absolutely need to start getting used to making them be the first thing that gets set during an action and once you and your players get used to them momentum will come on its own. Try to get into the habit early so both you and your players don’t learn bad habits. Also remember that position/effect determination is more of a narrative concept than a purely mechanical one: you as the GM will have to make judgment calls on how the narrative that the players weave affects position/effect.
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Feb 18, 2024 15:35
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Tekopo posted:Just be careful because if you just set everything as risky/standard you will struggle a lot as you keep playing. The game only shines when you use position/effect effectively and games in which you make use of both of them will feel much more tactical and engaging when the narrative that the players weave has an actual effect on the resolution of the rolls. FITD does not work very well IMO if you don’t fully use the mechanisms the way they are meant to be used so although it’s not a big deal ignoring it in the first session, you absolutely need to start getting used to making them be the first thing that gets set during an action and once you and your players get used to them momentum will come on its own. Try to get into the habit early so both you and your players don’t learn bad habits. If nothing else, you definitely need to have position/effect laid out already the first the a player says, "I'll use...um...FINESSE...to gracefully slide a stiletto into the Bluecoat's eye," so they don't think you're making the system up to screw them.
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Feb 18, 2024 16:21
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Oh, thanks everyone for the advice. I'm going to reread it! I had my Session 0 a few days ago and it all went a little roughly, but also swimmingly!  Everyone is really into the idea of the crew that was made and the players talked a lot about their character dynamics. Now all I just need to run the The War in Crow's Foot situation well and I might just hook my players.
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Feb 21, 2024 11:34
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