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I'm regretting backing this now. Changing your core mechanic after the Kickstarter... When does he expect to release the game? How can there be time to give a new core mechanic the playtesting time it needs? Seems like either we'll end up waiting a long time for him to test everything out or else the full release will be the playtest. Either way I think I'd have been better off waiting for retail and buying it then if it turns out good. I mean, the change is probably a good one, but I was under the impression that I was backing a game that basically already existed. It's totally legit to kickstart a game that doesn't exist yet, and I'm not saying anyone else should feel bad for backing. But my personal policy is to back games that are essentially complete already, and otherwise to wait for retail and reviews. I knew the rules not being out at the start was a red flag (for me) and I posted as much, but in the end I got caught up in the hype. Just to be clear: I do trust John Harper, and I expect it'll be good, but I'm justifiably leery of game kickstarters and I'd rather not have to put my trust when I could just wait and get the thing later.
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Apr 24, 2015 15:09
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Lemon Curdistan posted:He hasn't changed the mechanic, stop being a gigantic baby. The single Action/Effect roll was something he put forward for consideration. Oh sorry, maybe I misunderstood. I thought he was changing it? Everyone in here is talking like he is changing it or has changed it. I'm getting my news from this thread instead of G+, so my apologies if I'm confused. Also, how is it being a gigantic baby to acknowledge that kickstarters are inherently a gamble?
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Apr 24, 2015 15:31
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Fenarisk posted:It's been like two weeks since the kickstarter ended and you're already at "I regret this".
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Apr 24, 2015 16:11
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No, I agree with you. It's just telling me that in hindsight I should have just waited for it to be done instead of paying money now for something I won't be able to enjoy for months or more because of my other priorities. I have this instinct to "buy now" that I have fight because in reality it is better for me to buy the games now that I am going to play now instead of buying the games that I will eventually play. It's not like it'll be unavailable when I want to play it later.
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Apr 24, 2015 19:14
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Kai Tave posted:You shouldn't contribute to Kickstarters then because "waiting months or more" is part and parcel of that particular experience, and even if John Harper was like "okay, I'm not changing any of this no matter how clunky it is, gogogo" you would still be waiting months or more for everybody to finish writing, laying out, and illustrating the approximately one bajillion stretch goals unlocked over the course of the Kickstarter. So there are plenty of reasons to pledge to the right KS at the right time. I don't think this one met any of those for me, although it probably met many of those criteria for many people, not to mention all the folks who have a different set of criteria.
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Apr 24, 2015 20:26
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Yes, the fact that the core mechanic was what needed revision based on playtester feedback is a red flag. Like, duh, obviously it is. Changing your core mechanic can have knock-on effects and can be very tricky. I don't know why you seem to think I'm saying that he shouldn't revise it. Obviously he should, and I've said that since my first post. It's still a red flag that he has to. And, again, I've said since my first post that I'm confident in his abilities that he will work this out. I don't know what you are still hung up about.
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Apr 25, 2015 12:41
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Kai Tave posted:So far as I'm aware the clock system is remaining firmly in place, though I have to admit I don't really see anything TOO exciting in hitpoints by any other name, but there you go. There you go peeling off the fresh coat of paint. Taking old things and making them feel new again is part of the job of the designer. Less glib, and assuming that John preserved what was best about the clocks in AW, what the clocks do that HP also does is explicitly indicate how much is left before completion, but the clocks also dictate the current circumstances. Descriptive and prescriptive, and all that. The world will behave differently when a clock is at 5/6 than when it is at 2/6. That isn't generally true of games with HP, although it is found sometimes (4e's bloodied condition is a very basic example).
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May 5, 2015 00:59
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Kai Tave posted:It's funny too because the game has a whole resolution system that's all about various levels and degrees of success contextually measured against various positions of difficulty which is really pretty neat and interesting and more than a simple binary pass/fail...but that's just one part of things and after using that you then move on to a separate resolution system that's much less interesting and dynamic which seems to serve the sole purpose of going "wow, you totally aced that roll to do a thing...buuuut you rolled like poo poo on the clock so someone needs to try again." When you make a clock, you should tell your players what each stage represents and, without giving away any surprises, what they can expect when they get there. Edit: either that or don't even tell the players about the clock at all. Use the clock to guide your own descriptions and make sure that when the players succeed, you can describe to them what their success got them if it didn't get them the whole shebang. This would be if you're following the 'never talk about mechanics' guideline from AW (I forget what pithy phrase Vincent used for that principle). Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 05:26 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 05:19
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QuantumNinja posted:I would legitimately love for you to give me an example of a six-circle guard watch demonstrating what happens at each slice. I have a few ideas, but I'm super-curious to see what you have in mind. 1/6 - you can breach the compound perimeter without being detected 2/6 you can get into the main building undetected 3/6 You can get into the secure area undetected 4/6 You have time to attempt your main task undetected 5/6 You can get back out undetected 6/6 The guards won't be able to immediately trace it back to you once they find out what you did
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May 5, 2015 18:40
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Evil Mastermind posted:If you're not on the G+ group, then you probably didn't see Joseph Vandel's awesome heist clocks. Ugh. 8 for locks? That sounds like classic bad d&d. "Oh, good job, you unlocked the door! Now roll again for the next door! Oh, too bad. Try again! Hey, great lockpicking! Only a couple more doors left! Keep on rolling..." Am I missing something?
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May 7, 2015 19:18
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No, I get that you can take out multiple lock segments at once, but if you don't know as the DM whether a successful roll will be good enough, it makes the narration really difficult. It's either "okay, this is the final vault door... Oh, you succeeded but had poo poo for effect. Well, I guess there is another door behind this one lol." Or it's "okay, you come to another locked door into the secure zone. The final vault lies beyond... Woah! 5 effect! Okay, well I guess they left the vault door beyond unlocked. It is really tough to set things up without knowing the stakes of the roll before you roll. It is a core principle of AW (not to mention many other games) that you know when a player picks up the dice what the stakes are. Having 8hp for locks makes that tough if they are trying to pick a lock because you don't know until they roll whether they are picking the only lock or just one of many. The awkwardness comes from the fact that even if you know what the player is trying to do and assume he will succeed, you don't know what that success will mean. A success with 1 effect when you needed 2 is essentially a failure although it will be narrated as a success. Edit: Now I'm thinking more and I'm not so sure about what I just wrote. I'm going to keep thinking about it. But feel free to tell me where I'm wrong, because it feels like I just need to look at this from the right angle and it'll all make sense. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 22:45 on May 7, 2015 |
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May 7, 2015 21:54
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Lemon Curdistan posted:If you've got a multi-segment clock for the final vault door, why does one roll equal one go at picking the door's lock or safety mechanism? Is that what the image means? Sorry, I thought that the "fine locks" were distributed around the heist, not just on one door. Having them distributed feels funny because you might pick a lock with a roll or if you do well for effect you might pick all the locks with that same roll. Which is unintuitive, to say the least. Having it be HP for one very complex locked vault actually makes perfect sense to me. Is that the thing I was missing?
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May 7, 2015 23:03
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Doodmons posted:Those diagrams are really helping me grok Blades. Am I right in thinking that the players don't have to complete a clock all at once and can move between them? The clock represents the fact that DM is permitted to put that SORT of obstacle in your way in the process of the heist. "How much the presence of superior locks increases the difficulty of the heist" isn't wrong, but it doesn't make clear how it is used in practice. The clock is not how many locks are left, and it's not whether you just proved you are skilled enough to handle all future locks by your prowess with this one. It's not any of the contradictory crap that was in my muddled brain. It's simply a thing telling the DM that they can throw another lock or guard in later. So, I get it now. I'm 100% a subscriber to the Doodmons interpretation. "there's gonna be more trouble from this threat during the heist" But now I look back at the diagram and this interpretation doesn't really work the same for "sewers entrance". That is something that needs to be overcome as a unit before the rest of the heist can occur. But that's not problematic in my mind. That sort of self-contained area clock was always fairly clear and it was the ones that were dispersed throughout the heist that were giving me trouble. So am I right in saying that there are really two different sorts of clocks? One type of clock basically represents a scene and you need to overcome it to complete the scene. This would be something like "sewers entrance" or "hidden laboratory". And then there are clocks that represent recurring dangers that the DM can throw in front of you at any point until you clear the clock. This would be "guards" and "fine locks" and "electroplasma traps".
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May 8, 2015 19:21
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