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PurpleXVI posted:Is it a spoiler if I say that HW2 is out to poo poo on everything from Homeworld in some way, including the Bentusi? No, but details may be spoilerish.
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May 3, 2015 01:26
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The contempt for the aspects of the game just seems to want to leap off the videos' subtitled commentary and scream in my face.
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May 3, 2015 04:37
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PurpleXVI posted:Is it a spoiler if I say that HW2 is out to poo poo on everything from Homeworld in some way, including the Bentusi? It would be if it were true.
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May 3, 2015 07:23
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J.theYellow posted:The contempt for the aspects of the game just seems to want to leap off the videos' subtitled commentary and scream in my face. You haven't seen mission three yet. You haven't seen Mission Three yet.
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May 3, 2015 08:44
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berryjon posted:You haven't seen mission three yet. I have. You're not letting enough contempt out to play.
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May 3, 2015 09:58
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berryjon posted:You haven't seen mission three yet. WELL THEN GET ON WITH IT  But yeah, having never played this game, it's kind of sad how mediocre it seems, compared to the original. About the only thing I like so far is the squadron system.
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May 3, 2015 12:42
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Mediocre? Mediocre is this game being good. The story will get offensive.
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May 3, 2015 12:44
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When I first played this game, it was around Mission 3 I realized that I missed Kiith Somtaaw and the Kuun-Lann immensely. It's even better when you read the manual and you realize that they were the only Kiith who heard Karan's messianic rantings about using the Hyperspace Core and went: "... Bitch, it's just an Hyperspace Core. We have many, many examples copied from the exact schematics of it. Why the gently caress should we rip apart one of our main shipyards (the Mothership) to give the new Mothership the first copy of the Khar Toba's Core?" It's as if Kiith Somtaaw was the last remnant of the old continuity and they just straight up refused to accept the new one. I know that if Somtaaw Fleet Command was there during HW2, he'd have called bullshit on a lot of things. God knows his engineers would have been more creative than "Here's incremental armour/speed upgrades". Mostly, I missed having people who sounded like they cared about what was going on. If you remember Mission 1 of Cataclysm, Somtaaw Fleet Command was clearly unnerved at being even near the main battle, but still willing to help however he could because the Homeworld was at stake. And in Mission 2 of HW1, when the Khar Selim was missing from the arrival coordinates, Fleet Intelligence and Fleet Command were puzzled underneath the professionalism. When it was found destroyed, they were scared, but keeping it under control. And then there was Mission 3, which was perfect in tone and acting. Here? "Oh, Hiigara is sort of under attack. They'll last a few hours, I guess. It's just our sacred Homeworld being threatened by Taidanii Imperialists and Vagyr Crusaders. No need to worry."
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May 3, 2015 15:42
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I don't think mission 3 is actually all that bad since you still aren't facing a tremendous amount of bullshit, just mechanics that seem kind of weird the first time through. Plus you can trivialize mission 3 by moving the mothership (it moves now!) to the shipyard and pumping out marine frigates. Mission 4 though, that's where things go way out of wack.
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May 3, 2015 16:33
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I do enjoy that the very first thing they show this Mothership doing is firing its engines, as if to say "Yes, you can move this one!"
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May 3, 2015 17:23
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Polaron posted:I do enjoy that the very first thing they show this Mothership doing is firing its engines, as if to say "Yes, you can move this one!" First thing done in HW1 was test-firing the engines, so it's a direct callback to a better game.
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May 3, 2015 17:47
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Y'all are not making me want to follow this lp. It's sounding like I should just cherish the memories of the first two games, and pretend HW2 never happened.
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May 3, 2015 18:00
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Delta Green posted:"... Bitch, it's just an Hyperspace Core. We have many, many examples copied from the exact schematics of it. Why the gently caress should we rip apart one of our main shipyards (the Mothership) to give the new Mothership the first copy of the Khar Toba's Core?" The retcon in HW2, and moved into the HW1 Manual for Remastered is that the Khar-Toba's Core was extracted and put into the Mothership as-is. No reverse engineering. No taking it apart to carefully study how it works to build the theory that would allow them to build smaller cores. No building a x12 scale model of the Khar-Toba's FTL engine to install in the massively larger Mothership. I'm uploading the next video now. My schedule at work is probably going to change soon, but Sundays will still be available for me to work on the LP so I think I'll move the update schedule to Sundays instead of Mondays. AltaBrown posted:Y'all are not making me want to follow this lp. It's sounding like I should just cherish the memories of the first two games, and pretend HW2 never happened. No, please stay. This game is friggen gorgeous. I would ask that you stick around until you can't stand the plot any more, and then let me know when you leave so I can have a metric of how much BS you can take from this game.
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May 3, 2015 18:06
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berryjon posted:The retcon in HW2, and moved into the HW1 Manual for Remastered is that the Khar-Toba's Core was extracted and put into the Mothership as-is. No reverse engineering. No taking it apart to carefully study how it works to build the theory that would allow them to build smaller cores. No building a x12 scale model of the Khar-Toba's FTL engine to install in the massively larger Mothership. It still is irritating the heck out of me that what was obviously a mass-produced civilian transport with a zillion identical class-mates used for a desperate exodus of ragged refugees is being played up as having contained THE MYSTICAL HYPERSPACE CORE OF DESTINY. And that they're ignoring the entire evidence of multiple societies having long-range FTL capability in Homeworld 1. The Taiidan Empire wouldn't make any sense if they didn't have long-range FTL!
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May 3, 2015 18:09
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AltaBrown posted:Y'all are not making me want to follow this lp. It's sounding like I should just cherish the memories of the first two games, and pretend HW2 never happened. The game's story is perfectly fine, it's just science-fantasy now instead of straight up science-fiction. I think a lot of the people in the thread are overreacting. It's mainly the gameplay that's much weaker than it was in HW1 and HW:Cataclysm.
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May 3, 2015 19:03
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Please buckle your seatbelts, return your trays to the upright and locked position and turn off your electronic devices. The Plot is about to take a sharp curve in the last three minutes, and the rabbit hole only goes deeper. I think I lost my analogy somewhere in there....
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May 3, 2015 19:41
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quote:The retcon in HW2, and moved into the HW1 Manual for Remastered is that the Khar-Toba's Core was extracted and put into the Mothership as-is. No reverse engineering. No taking it apart to carefully study how it works to build the theory that would allow them to build smaller cores. No building a x12 scale model of the Khar-Toba's FTL engine to install in the massively larger Mothership. I thought it was that they supersized the module but kept the core that runs it the same.
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May 3, 2015 19:51
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It was never fixed?  Granted, I'm not a programmer, but how hard can it be to adjust a variable value with a patch?
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May 3, 2015 20:13
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Mikl posted:It was never fixed? Hard enough that they released an entirely 'remastered edition' and didn't fix it. I have no idea why. Maybe with the game's 'scaling difficulty' thing, people were getting murdered by enemy frigate fleets at the earlier levels when they had actual armor?
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May 3, 2015 20:21
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Sooooooooooo, I've gotta ask, the Harbor Ship is called the last of the Bentusi.....What exactly happened to everyone else? I know some left the galaxy, but there seemed to be plenty left in the galaxy, and they seemed to be pretty on top of their form in terms of power.
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May 3, 2015 20:28
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The Bentusi showing up was awesome. Also, notice how they can fly into their hyperspace window instead of being motionless and the window "consuming" the ship? Amazing. Now we learn more about the overarching story. While it's admittedly of a different nature than in the two previous games, it's pretty engaging if you approach it open-minded.
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May 3, 2015 20:38
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Gothsheep posted:Hard enough that they released an entirely 'remastered edition' and didn't fix it. I have no idea why. Maybe with the game's 'scaling difficulty' thing, people were getting murdered by enemy frigate fleets at the earlier levels when they had actual armor? Are you guys sure they didn't fix it in Remastered? I heard a lot of talk about how they did (and broke flak frigates/missile corvettes so they do double damage to everything now).
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May 3, 2015 20:54
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Part of me is still impressed with the graphics; while space-based games tend to have it relatively easy in making really pretty skyboxes (Eg. Freelancer, Sins of a Solar Empire, Elite: Dangerous, All the Homeworld games, et al.), I want to find the voice director and punch him in the balls until he learns that 'Ship is Under Attack' should not be used like it's a loving comma. Especially when you compare to Cataclysm, which had individual comments and curses from each type of vessel, and far less wooden commentary from your Command Ship. As for why the Harbour Ship is called 'The Last' of the Bentusi, based upon my understanding of the storyline et al, every last Tradeship disappeared from the galaxy around 50-odd years back, leaving only the harbour ship, which is ~Supposed~ to be so large that a tradeship looks like a frigate next to it. http://shipyards.relicnews.com/hw2/images/homeworld210.jpg Shows concept art from the game, and yes, that's a tradeship leaving the central dock. Honestly, as far as I've been able to tell, there's no real reason given for the complete disappearance of the Bentusi, and I honestly doubt that any explanation given would hold up against real scrutiny.
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May 3, 2015 21:02
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Mikl posted:It was never fixed? This assumes Relic was given enough support by their Publisher to do a patch, or that their Publisher gave a poo poo about Homeworld in any fashion at the time. Also pretty sure that particular bug was Fixed for Remaster, Remaster has it's own funny Bugs, like the Fighter Kamikaze damage value that had a couple zero's added and let a handful kill an MS.
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May 3, 2015 21:02
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Jimmy4400nav posted:Sooooooooooo, I've gotta ask, the Harbor Ship is called the last of the Bentusi.....What exactly happened to everyone else? I know some left the galaxy, but there seemed to be plenty left in the galaxy, and they seemed to be pretty on top of their form in terms of power. Buy the strategy guide to find out! I actually never read it myself but I think I read somewhere that Makaan and the Vagyr hunted them down because apparently they can do that. AltaBrown posted:Y'all are not making me want to follow this lp. It's sounding like I should just cherish the memories of the first two games, and pretend HW2 never happened. Stay for the visual and sound design at the very least. Torrannor posted:The game's story is perfectly fine, it's just science-fantasy now instead of straight up science-fiction. I think a lot of the people in the thread are overreacting. It's mainly the gameplay that's much weaker than it was in HW1 and HW:Cataclysm. It's a combination of some bad gameplay design and weird/unnecessary/dumb retcons that don't add a single thing, even to the story that was presented.
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May 3, 2015 21:05
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I'm really glad I never got this game.
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May 3, 2015 21:06
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AJ_Impy posted:I'm really glad I never got this game. The LP Subforum: "We Play games, so you don't have to!"
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May 3, 2015 21:07
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berryjon posted:The LP Subforum: "We Play games, so you don't have to!" The thing is, I like continuity. Building on the established canon in new and interesting directions. This is just... sloppy. Really, really sloppy.
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May 3, 2015 21:11
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Mikl posted:It was never fixed? Because it doesn't work the way the video claims it does. Weapon data for the Hiigaran Interceptor: --=========================================================================== -- Purpose : Lua definition file for Homeworld Ship. -- Contains loading information and flight dynamics information (among other things?) -- -- Copyright Relic Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. --=========================================================================== StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Gimble","Bullet","Kinetic_Rapid","Normal",2200,1600,0,0,0,0,1,1,0,0.6,1.3,0.8,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0); AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",37,37,""); setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=0.70},{PlanetKillerArmour=0},{SubSystemArmour=3},{ResArmour=0.6}); setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1,{Fighter=0.13},{Corvette=0.3},{munition=0.2},{Frigate=0.6,damage=1},{SmallCapitalShip=0.6,damage=1},{BigCapitalShip=0.6,damage=1},{ResourceLarge=0.6,damage=1}); setAngles(NewWeaponType,25,0,0,0,0); The simplified way to read this without delving into DPS/shots per burst and all that is that the maximum single shot damage of the Hiigaran Interceptor is (damage * penetration) or 37*0.7 (frigates have "medium" armor class, which has no numbers or math associated with it, it is just a name). What berryjon purports is that the ",damage=1"in the "setAccuracy" section (Frigate=0.6,damage=1) "sets the frigate armor to 1 and causes all weapons to do full damage against them". This would be 100% true IF the ",damage=1" flag was set in the setPenetration section. Relic generated weapon files from an Excel sheet. Through either bug or last minute design regret the Excel file exports the ",damage=1" flag into the setAccuracy section instead of setPenetration. We'll never know if it was intentional or if they even realized. This is actually super easy to verify yourself. Change the Hiigaran Interceptor weapon to: --=========================================================================== -- Purpose : Lua definition file for Homeworld Ship. -- Contains loading information and flight dynamics information (among other things?) -- -- Copyright Relic Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. --=========================================================================== StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Gimble","Bullet","Kinetic_Rapid","Normal",2200,1600,0,0,0,0,1,1,0,0.6,1.3,0.8,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0); AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",20000,20000,""); setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=0.01}); setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1,{Frigate=0.6,damage=1}); setAngles(NewWeaponType,25,0,0,0,0); And a single interceptor will do 200 damage a shot to a Frigate (240 actually since most frigates have 1.2 damage multiplier applied to them in their .ship files). where --=========================================================================== -- Purpose : Lua definition file for Homeworld Ship. -- Contains loading information and flight dynamics information (among other things?) -- -- Copyright Relic Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. --=========================================================================== StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Gimble","Bullet","Kinetic_Rapid","Normal",2200,1600,0,0,0,0,1,1,0,0.6,1.3,0.8,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0); AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",20000,20000,""); setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=0.01,damage=1}); setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1,{Frigate=0.6}); setAngles(NewWeaponType,25,0,0,0,0); or even --=========================================================================== -- Purpose : Lua definition file for Homeworld Ship. -- Contains loading information and flight dynamics information (among other things?) -- -- Copyright Relic Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. --=========================================================================== StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Gimble","Bullet","Kinetic_Rapid","Normal",2200,1600,0,0,0,0,1,1,0,0.6,1.3,0.8,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0); AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",20000,20000,""); setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=0.01,damage=1}); setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1,{Frigate=0.6,damage=1}); setAngles(NewWeaponType,25,0,0,0,0); will kill a frigate in a single shot because the ",damage=1" has been moved into the section where the code actually looks for that flag. Frigates are pretty crappy because they effectively have 20% less health than listed (due to taking 1.2 damage from the side and rear) and because they are invariably the highest on the targeting priority list of other ships. And their counters are roughly 3 times the cost, and have roughly 5 times the health and antifrigate damage. But it's not due to this "bug".
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May 3, 2015 21:11
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I'm having trouble following all the details there. Are you saying the "frigate armor bug" is basically a myth?
Sindai fucked around with this message at 21:39 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 21:37
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I have a question about adaptive difficulty. First, you explained that the more ships you got, more ships the enemy will have. Then you decided to first collect all resources on the map before repairing that shipyard, thus making many new ships. Did that changed the number of carriers that attacked you later in the mission or the effect would only be seen in the next mission?
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May 3, 2015 21:39
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nweismuller posted:The Taiidan Empire wouldn't make any sense if they didn't have long-range FTL! I'd have said the Taiidan Empire wouldn't make any sense if it did have long-range FTL. The Taiidan are shown as a corrupt, mostly feudal society, where individual sectors seem to be mostly independent of each other and much of the empire doesn't know what much of the rest of it is doing; it certainly doesn't succeed correctly at passing information along about the exiles efficiently and neither the Loyalists nor the Rebels seem to be able to effect significant fleet concentrations when they really want to. Come on, the Empire has the resources of most of a galaxy available to it, and it never manages to throw enough ships together in the same place to overwhelm either the Mothership or even a single Bentusi Tradeship? For that matter, it permits the Great Nebula to remain effectively outside of its remit despite being inside its territory entirely? The first game makes an awful lot more sense if you assume the Taiidan can't move anywhere near as fast as the Exiles can. edit: and of course in Cataclysm there's the line "we're headed back to Hiigara, making maximum range hyperspace jumps" with the implication being they'll need several, which is definitely not how the Mothership worked in the original. There's a lot to object to in HW2's plot, but the Mothership's hyperdrive being special is actually one of the things that makes a certain amount of sense. Ilanin fucked around with this message at 22:21 on May 3, 2015 |
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May 3, 2015 21:48
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RBA Starblade posted:Are you guys sure they didn't fix it in Remastered? I heard a lot of talk about how they did (and broke flak frigates/missile corvettes so they do double damage to everything now). I am not, no. I don't have the Remastered version myself, I'm just going off of what was said in the previous thread.
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May 3, 2015 21:50
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Sindai posted:I'm having trouble following all the details there. Are you saying the "frigate armor bug" is basically a myth? Yeah, sorry if that was obtuse. There is no such thing as armor class having a value. As far as Homeworld is concerned "MediumArmour" is just a name to compare against. in my example: --=========================================================================== -- Purpose : Lua definition file for Homeworld Ship. -- Contains loading information and flight dynamics information (among other things?) -- -- Copyright Relic Entertainment, Inc. All rights reserved. --=========================================================================== StartWeaponConfig(NewWeaponType,"Gimble","Bullet","Kinetic_Rapid","Normal",2200,1600,0,0,0,0,1,1,0,0.6,1.3,0.8,0,0,0,0,0.1,"Normal",0,0,0); AddWeaponResult(NewWeaponType,"Hit","DamageHealth","Target",20000,20000,""); setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=0.01}); setAccuracy(NewWeaponType,1,{Frigate=0.6,damage=1}); setAngles(NewWeaponType,25,0,0,0,0); the single shot damage is 20,000 and the penetration value against MediumArmour (Frigates have "MediumArmour") is 0.01 then a bullet striking any ship with MediumArmour would do 20000x.01 or 200 for each hit. The ",damage=1" flag essentially means "bypass the penetration multiplier". so: setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=0.01,damage=1}); AND setPenetration(NewWeaponType,5,1,{MediumArmour=1.0}); give the exact same result- a 20000 damage hit. If you are confused because you are asking yourself "What is the point? Why would I ever not just have the multiplier = 1.0?" then you are not crazy, this is legitimately a confusing decision on Relic's part. Regardless, it doesn't work because it is in the wrong place. There was never a bug that made frigates fragile but there was a bug that made them not as fragile as they were "intended". (well somebody intended at some point, I guess. I mean there is code to bypass the penetration and somebody took the time to try and increase the damage done against frigates and larger ships, they just didn't succeed at it). In Homeworld 2, Armor is Health so setting armor to "1" is the equivalent to setting a ships health to "1" which would be pretty obvious. Frigates die when you look at them sideways but they aren't quite "1" health fragile. You could change all instances of "MediumArmour" with "12feetofsteel" in the weapons and set all frigates to have the armorclass of "12feetofsteel" and as long as you defined "12feetofsteel" in familylist.lua it would work and you would see frigates taking the same amount of damage.
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May 3, 2015 22:01
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Disco Infiva posted:I have a question about adaptive difficulty. First, you explained that the more ships you got, more ships the enemy will have. Then you decided to first collect all resources on the map before repairing that shipyard, thus making many new ships. Did that changed the number of carriers that attacked you later in the mission or the effect would only be seen in the next mission? Next mission. ThisQuietReverie posted:Effort Post Mind if I eat some crow, and toss this into the OP?
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May 3, 2015 22:02
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Two things... A) Adaptive difficulty is based off the endgame .lua files that record your fleet's state at the end of each mission to carry to the next. It's 'adaptive' in so much as the enemies make up is mathmatically generated from what yours is. For fun I usually cheat and add about 50 battlecruisers to my fleet, which causes a particular mission to turn ANY computer I have into a slide show because the adaptive response to that is by pitching 200 interceptor squadrons at you (for some reason). B) Uhh... so I own the Strat Guide. And here's it's discussion about what happened between game 1 and this one. Homeworld Strategy Guide, Page 177 Appendix C “History of Hiigara” posted:
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May 3, 2015 22:08
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berryjon posted:Next mission. There's no crow here dude-a lot of this knowledge actually stemmed from a comment you made (in video or thread, I don't remember) during your Cataclysm play through. I was determined to find this bug you had mentioned to ensure that HW:R did not ship with such a debilitating bug it so in actuality you set all the research into motion (and in doing so made me scrutinize why frigates are so bad). They should see a significant improvement in future HW:R patches.
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May 3, 2015 22:09
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"Yo, I heard y'all needed some plot in this game so here it is. Peace, I'm out." That certainly is, uh, one way to bring the Bentusi back.
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May 3, 2015 22:17
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Ship under attack.
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May 3, 2015 22:20
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Is it bad that I really hope Sajuuk is actually the Beast.
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May 3, 2015 22:27
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