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sean10mm posted:Thanos is also the reason Gamora is even in the story at all. I mean you could rewrite her so she's not a cyborg assassin created by Thanos who hates him and wants to undermine his schemes and make up with Thanos's other cyborg assassin adopted daughter, or write Gamora out of the team, but that seems stupider than just having the cameo role Thanos actually played in the movie. Nah, just have her on lend from Thanos and have his contract be with Ronan's government. You can even keep the same lines about them being in league together, but you don't need to depict him at all.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:27
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Nah, it's a real mess of a film. A bunch of themes are set up early on (like Vanko's desire to shame Stark in front of the world to kill his legacy) that never really get any good payoff, and the solution to Tony Stark's medical problems is a preposterous solution involving a theme park his dad built decades ago. The script (or lack thereof) is a real problem with it. The problem with Iron Man 2 is that it doesn't really mean anything. Tony has stress/drinking problems, I guess, that he just gets over. He has some kind of infection that Nick Fury cures with a shot. Vanko presents himself as a huge problem to Tony initially before deciding to become a mad bomber kind of guy who just dies. Justin Hammer is too stupid to actually do anything but bust Vanko out of prison. The end. My personal gripes with Iron Man 2 are: - Don Cheadle is a weak, pointless, joke of a character. Not only is he inferior to Terrence Howard, but the character is actively dumb - he delivers an Iron Man suit to the military, and gets hacked by Vanko. - Justin Hammer is an incompetent goof that hates Tony Stark because he's jealous of him. His only motivator is that he's not as famous as Tony. That's it. If a major villain is both stupid and has weak motivation, we, the viewer, have no reason to give a poo poo. I like Rockwell, and he's great at everything, but Hammer just felt so watered down. We know Rockwell can do evil and/or batshit insane, and do it well. Imagine if Hammer was like he is in the books - an ever-present evil Tony has to worry about. - Vanko is actually kind of interesting, and his Whiplash suit seems like it would pose an interesting challenge to Iron Man in the right circumstances. But, nope, we get an unsatisfying suicide bomb finish. - Nick Fury has to show up to explain the actual plot. - At the end of the film - so what? Nothing was actually accomplished.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:47
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Red posted:- At the end of the film - so what? Nothing was actually accomplished. In this way, the MCU is truer to its comic origins than ever before.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:48
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I like Terrance Howard more than most but what loving planet are you living on where Don Cheadle is inferior to him?
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Jun 5, 2015 17:52
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More stories need to end with the characters not learning anything.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:53
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:I like Terrance Howard more than most but what loving planet are you living on where Don Cheadle is inferior to him? As Jim Rhodes? Terrence Howard's Rhodes actually had a personality, and showed chemistry with RDJ. Downey treated him like a kid brother, and Howard came off annoyed, but still loyal. When Cheadle and RDJ are on-screen together, they look and feel like actors reciting lines. Cheadle loving sucks as War Machine.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:59
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computer parts posted:The question raised in Avengers is "why did SHIELD have Hydra weapons?" The answer given in Winter Soldier was "because they're literally Hydra" and not the one implied in Avengers which was "SHIELD (personified by Nick Fury) doesn't have moral boundaries and will do anything to win". In what way is "SHIELD (personified by Nick Fury) doesn't have moral boundaries and will do anything to win" different from "SHIELD is literally Hydra"?
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Jun 5, 2015 20:17
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Grendels Dad posted:In what way is "SHIELD (personified by Nick Fury) doesn't have moral boundaries and will do anything to win" different from "SHIELD is literally Hydra"? Because not every bad guy is Hydra? Not every person who will do anything to win has been running a long game since WWII?
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Jun 5, 2015 20:42
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jivjov posted:Because not every bad guy is Hydra? Not every person who will do anything to win has been running a long game since WWII? I'm sorry but you will find that every bad guy is indeed Hydra, and most of the good guys too.
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Jun 5, 2015 20:45
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Grendels Dad posted:I'm sorry but you will find that every bad guy is indeed Hydra, and most of the good guys too. Maybe in some vague metaphorical sense; but I'm speaking "is actually working for the organization named Hydra"
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Jun 5, 2015 21:20
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jivjov posted:Maybe in some vague metaphorical sense; but I'm speaking "is actually working for the organization named Hydra" Every villain is simultaneously Hydra, a Doombot, and a Skrull.
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Jun 5, 2015 22:42
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jivjov posted:Maybe in some vague metaphorical sense; but I'm speaking "is actually working for the organization named Hydra" With that standpoint, even if you were to eradicate Hydra, Hydra would still win by proxy when their goals are achieved by Shield being crazy messed-up. This was the point of the end of The First Avenger: Hydra won even when they were destroyed.
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Jun 5, 2015 23:14
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Judge the earthbound politics of this series against the examples from the more fantastic films. Xandar and the Nova Corps are the good, just, trustworthy state, depicted with a vagueness appropriate to the fact that most real-world humans can entertain the possibility of a state possessing those qualities but few can agree on what would make it so. Compared to Xandar, the difference between SHIELD and HYDRA is the difference between the Kree Empire and Ronan's personal mercenaries, which is to say, one of them has invested heavily enough in their public image that they're not currently willing to act openly in pursuit of their shared goal of aggressive hegemony, and the other uses an Infinity Gem (or other artifact of power, such as the chip containing Zola's algorithm, or a miniaturized arc reactor) to perform dramatic stunts that subterfuge alone could not achieve. The perpendicular axis is defined by Asgard. Asgard is not depicted as particularly more ethical than any given earthly nation; amoral and wily supreme dictator Odin says that the only difference that matters between Asgard and Svartalfheim (whose stated ambition, remember, is to exterminate all life in the universe) is that Asgard will win, and nobody there much cares about what would happen to Earth if the truce with Jotunheim were to fail. Rather, if Xandar is superior to Earth in morality, then Asgard is superior in morale. Asgard appears to lack disharmony, decay, poverty, self-doubt, and most importantly fear. Heimdall can see the entire universe at a glance, which is the sort of surveillance apparatus that Nick Fury would give his left testicle for, and the Bifrost he guards is an unassailable defensive position that can deploy an army literally anywhere in an instant or crack a planet in half, putting even the fanciest helicarrier to shame. Asgard is what SHIELD dreams of being, but that dream is a paranoiac nightmare - it doesn't merely want to be safe from its enemies (even Asgard has enemies that threaten it), but to do so by controlling everything it can reach, which is HYDRA's stated ideology. What Asgard and Xandar have in common is that when they get their hands on an infinity gem, they lock it up in a vault to keep it away from anybody who wants to use it. Wanting to do that is the sign of a villain. (Remember: Tony's arc reactor, Zola's algorithm, Bruce Banner's blood samples, the Super Soldier Serum, vibranium - these are all pretty much also infinity gems.) Thanos is being built up as the main bad guy, and he is literally defined by wanting to use the infinity gems. It's his entire character. In Age of Ultron, the Avengers are a lot more like Ronan than like the Nova Corps, stirring up trouble wherever they please independently of their home nation and using disposable drones and being hated and distrusted and wantonly harnessing infinity gem power. Ronan, you'll remember, wanted to avenge his ancestors. Meanwhile, the spine of the entire series is a trilogy of movies in which Tony Stark desperately attempts to convince himself that he's not exactly the same loving guy as the other vainglorious megalomaniac champion of the military-industrial complex. (I think it's a pretty compelling dynamic; it's impressive to take such a villainous character and make him into such a sympathetic protagonist.) They seem to be setting up Phase 3 to play with all these conundrums: Ant-Man is a criminal; Black Panther's entire concept is to present a bizarro inversion of colonial dynamics; Thor 3 is named for an event that Asgard would acknowledge as an existential threat comparable to the one Fury is desperate to protect Earth from; and of course the premise of Civil War is Captain America and Iron Man having a big fight over which one is the most wrong.
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Jun 6, 2015 04:09
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A good post. Though, I somehow doubt Feige is aware of your astute analysis.
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Jun 6, 2015 06:52
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MoaM posted:A good post. Though, I somehow doubt Feige is aware of your astute analysis. Do you imagine that Avengers 2's basic themes were not extensively discussed during, like, the screenwriting process?
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Jun 6, 2015 07:38
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Do you imagine that Avengers 2's basic themes were not extensively discussed during, like, the screenwriting process? They probably did, before saying "let's save this plot thread for Shrek 4".
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Jun 6, 2015 20:04
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Avengers 2 has a shitload of plot going on, in the basic sense that 'things happen', but the entire storytakes place in the one scene where Red Witch imagines the apocalypse and gets 'scared straight'. That's to say that absolutely nothing happens in Avengers 2 except for her change in perspective - what she initially perceived as the heroes' 'irrational' character flaws she now perceives as rational responses to the very real threat of invasion by a giant purple alien-jew clone of Jeff Bridges' villain character from Iron Man 1. "Gosh I love murdering people for pleasure!" That's to say that themes are totally intact. The film is just terrible.
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Jun 7, 2015 04:00
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Do you imagine that Avengers 2's basic themes were not extensively discussed during, like, the screenwriting process? No, I do not. Especially in the context of that post.
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Jun 7, 2015 04:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Avengers 2 has a shitload of plot going on, in the basic sense that 'things happen', but the entire storytakes place in the one scene where Red Witch imagines the apocalypse and gets 'scared straight'. For a 3-hour film bogged down by too much plot, the viewer sure has to infer a lot.
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Jun 7, 2015 04:12
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Avengers 2 has a shitload of plot going on, in the basic sense that 'things happen', but the entire storytakes place in the one scene where Red Witch imagines the apocalypse and gets 'scared straight'. What scene are you referring to exactly? The scene at the Korean skin-graft/Vision-creation lab?
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Jun 7, 2015 04:18
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quote:Steve Rogers, smiling: "this is what Hydra was meant to be." This is my favorite gob-smackingly stupid moment in this movie, if I had to pick one from the many. "It was meant to be what it always was!" Clearly Whedon didn't like Iron Man 3 or Captain America 2.
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Jun 7, 2015 22:13
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MoaM posted:What scene are you referring to exactly? The scene at the Korean skin-graft/Vision-creation lab? Right. It's the half-second shot of the meteor impact. Like Red says, vast swaths of the film make absolutely no sense -except if you put a great deal of effort into puzzling things out. This part is especially egregious, but it's technically not indecipherable. Weird Witch sees the image of a meteor strike in Ultron's mind, and states her belief that Ultron is planning to destroy the entire Earth. Ultron says that she's misinterpreted the image, but never clearly explains what his plan actually is. He just rambles on about how God is coming, and there's going to be a flood. The language is so vague that Weird Witch (and most of the audience) believe he's talking about himself. So what's the actual plan? When you put everything together, Ultron's ripping off Ozymandias in Watchmen. Ultron says at the start of the film that the Avengers - who currently control the world, completely unopposed - are too 'disorganized'. He's referring to the anti-Stark riots he witnessed firsthand. The Avengers have only succeeded at enforcing the status quo - blowing up minor arms dealers, but not dealing with any of the systemic problems. As a result, things are getting worse, not better. They've totally failed to unite humanity, and there's widespread (offscreen) strife. So, Ultron decides to unite humanity - with a false-flag operation. Once a Stark Industries weapon wipes out a chunk of Europe, the entire world will unite against The Avengers - and that's where Vision will step in. Ultron doesn't believe he's God. He believes he's the messiah. He quotes Jesus, saying "upon this rock, I will build my church" - and that's a very specific reference. Ultron intends to kill himself (dying for our sins) and for Vision to take over as his Paul - preaching the gospel of universal brotherhood, forgiveness, and whatnot. As leader of this new church, Vision would begin arming the united people, and preparing them for the coming apocalyptic battle. (The key to the plan is that Ultron must pretend to be insane. That's why he begins to explain his plan to Weird Witch, but catches himself - and then starts rambling incoherently instead.) I wrote earlier that Ultron's plan totally worked (he died, created Vision, united everyone against Thanos...) but he did fail in one respect: at the ultimate goal of abolishing capitalism. The Vision created at the end is a safe, New Age Christian - preaching detachment from politics, multicultural tolerance, humanitarianism, and 'pacifism'. He's not going to accomplish poo poo. So what does Thanos have to do with all this? Absolutely nothing. He's watching from the sidelines, hoping a bunch of civilians will die - but has no actual control over anything that happens. The end. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:38 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 04:55
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I think it's important to emphasize that the Watchmen-like plot is his backup plan. The general beats are the same (Thanos is coming, we must prepare, etc) but the original plan does call for humanity to be extinguished and robo-humanity to replace them (because face it, they would be better in a fight than an average human). Ultron is just clever enough to design his plan so if he does get defeated, there's still enough resistance to organize against Thanos.
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Jun 8, 2015 05:10
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computer parts posted:I think it's important to emphasize that the Watchmen-like plot is his backup plan. The general beats are the same (Thanos is coming, we must prepare, etc) but the original plan does call for humanity to be extinguished and robo-humanity to replace them (because face it, they would be better in a fight than an average human). The other way around, actually. He only threatens to kill all humans after his friends leave him, and he loses access to Vision. Even when those things happen, he still has some hope of completing the plan. He only snaps after the Avangers gain control of the island. And, in the end, it doesn't seem like he really meant it. He's still worried for Wanda's safety in his last moments, and his final form laments humanity's impending doom. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 05:51
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Just saw it last night. Not quite as good as the first one, but enjoyable and balanced the characters out pretty well. James Spader brought a lot of personality to Ultron and it was interesting to see him and Jarvis kind of have an AI duel of wills. Widow and Hawkeye still kind of seem nonessential, but I guess they're at least mid-tier now since they have a new B-roster. I wonder if Bucky's going to be added to that at some point (I've been a Sebastian Stan fanboy since Kings). I really wish they would've established why Thanos is a threat at some point though. As far as I know he hasn't actually done anything but act ominous. The main reason I keep up with the MCU is because I like the Infinity Stones arching plot, so I'm glad we got the reveal of the scepter housing the 4th one. Though why Loki had it at all when it's been so easily taken from him is the question - did they just not know the stone was inside it? Are any of the TV shows worth watching or is it only for die-hards? Any relevance to the Infinity plot? Bonk fucked around with this message at 07:35 on Jun 8, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 07:30
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Bonk posted:Are any of the TV shows worth watching or is it only for die-hards? Any relevance to the Infinity plot? Agents of SHIELD starts awfully, and maintains that quality until the Captain America 2 tie-in. After that it's a pretty decent genre show, and even gets to set up some Inhuman stuff. Agent Carter was fun. E: And yeah, Daredevil is the highest quality thing in the MCU. Doctor Spaceman fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jun 9, 2015 |
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Jun 8, 2015 07:45
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Bonk posted:Are any of the TV shows worth watching or is it only for die-hards? Any relevance to the Infinity plot? Daredevil (on Netflix) is outstanding, and you should watch it. Unrelated: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is a 2-season cartoon on Netflix that is extremely well done.
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Jun 8, 2015 14:55
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Red posted:Unrelated: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes is a 2-season cartoon on Netflix that is extremely well done. Alternatively, don't watch it as you will be inevitably disappointed when it ends and you find out what they replaced it with.
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Jun 8, 2015 21:37
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So I watched The Winter Soldier the other day and it really drove home the (admittedly obvious) fact that the MCU is not a storytelling device. These movies don't have any meaningful plot connections, they don't build to anything, and in fact this new movie doesn't even work as a stand alone. The MCU is an excuse to not even have a proper plot arc because hey, I recognize that actor in a plastic costume frm whatever crappy CGIfest I watched last summer.
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Jun 11, 2015 19:30
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What makes it so lovely is, once you realise that each film portrays every character differently and basically functions as its own standalone story (even if it has pretensions of being part of some wider Universe), you're stuck with some pretty not-great individual films building to nothing. Since they're wildly successful I somehow doubt there's much incentive to mess with the formula, but since they keep hiring more and more niche directors there's always a chance we cross some kind of event horizon and get a really good one.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:35
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Impressive showing of goons that just noticed this about the MCU after many repeat viewings.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:52
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It's really great that they've managed to perfectly emulate comic books in the movie market.
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Jun 11, 2015 21:56
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Dexo posted:It's really great that they've managed to perfectly emulate comic books in the movie market. Down to every last stupid detail, too.
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Jun 11, 2015 23:35
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Helsing posted:So I watched The Winter Soldier the other day and it really drove home the (admittedly obvious) fact that the MCU is not a storytelling device. These movies don't have any meaningful plot connections, they don't build to anything, and in fact this new movie doesn't even work as a stand alone. The MCU is an excuse to not even have a proper plot arc because hey, I recognize that actor in a plastic costume frm whatever crappy CGIfest I watched last summer. The MCU is a secret Marvel acronym for Money Creation Unit. It's working!
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Jun 12, 2015 09:18
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The MCU is something of a Hollywood miracle. All the MCU films have been decent and a few are even great. By Hollywood standards this is extraordinary. Hollywood is supposed to be terrible at geek movies and sequels, but Marvel Studios can put out decent movies reliably.
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Jun 12, 2015 09:34
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Down to every last stupid detail, too. Not until advertisements take up half of the screen every ten minutes. ... oh. Right. Cars.
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Jun 12, 2015 10:13
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They're just toy advertisement vehicles (no pun intended) anyway, aside from any specific adult product like a car on screen. The bright colors and focus on quips and memorable lines vs. deep emotional growth serves the target audience who are otherwise accustomed to saturday morning cartoons, so the kids remember that Thor said something funny and want his toy to zap stuff. Something like TDK or Man of Steel doesn't immediately translate to toys quite as well, IMO. Superman doesn't drive any motorcycles or wield any accessories or change his costume, so you don't see the same flood of merchandise you do from Marvel. Film enthusiasts rage about the lack of compelling drama in an individual film, but when they see the sales of Ultron merchandise they don't see many reasons to try and write Ultron more coherently or leave out things like Hulkbuster because the films are just a means to an end. It just so happens a byproduct is a movie that is pretty easy to forget. The original Iron Man was the only chance for that direction to fail and push them in a more mature direction, but it reinforced a different path.
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Jun 12, 2015 17:28
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This does make me morbidly curious for what the DC Cinematic Universe will look like. Maybe they'll take a page from Sin City and every story-line will involve the protagonists visiting the same IHOP franchise.
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Jun 12, 2015 18:27
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Helsing posted:This does make me morbidly curious for what the DC Cinematic Universe will look like. Maybe they'll take a page from Sin City and every story-line will involve the protagonists visiting the same IHOP franchise. 
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Jun 12, 2015 21:57
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Electromax posted:Something like TDK or Man of Steel doesn't immediately translate to toys quite as well, IMO. Superman doesn't drive any motorcycles or wield any accessories or change his costume, so you don't see the same flood of merchandise you do from Marvel. Yeah right, Batman movies don't sell toys.
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Jun 13, 2015 09:15
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