|
hosed up that someone can get called a weirdo for bringing Marxisty-sounding too-much-thinking into a thread in the Video Games Forum but it's cool to literally defend labor exploitation as correct and acceptable.
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 13:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 19:25 |
|
|
bloodsacrifice posted:Your objections deprived me and everyone else as consumers the choice period. Thats why people are attacking that viewpoint. Actually, no, it was property owner Bethesda and distribution platform owner Valve who deprived you of that choice by their decision, which they had the legal and moral right to make, to stop allowing mod sales because in their estimation it was no longer a valuable enough proposition to continue, even though no one was holding a gun to their heads. How dare you dictate terms to the companies who own things, "bloodsacrifice" aka "Lenin"
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:02
|
|
|
Lucid Dream posted:Its my opinion, do I really need to append "in my opinion" to every sentence or something? No poo poo. My point is that your opinion is mind-bendingly stupid.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:08
|
|
|
My opinion is fact until someone calls me out and then its just my opinion man
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:12
|
|
|
Bethesda should start charging modders for using their game assets. Easy money. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:15
|
|
|
snipermonkey posted:If they didn't want people to mod the game or profit from those mods, then they shouldn't have offered modability as a part of the game you paid for. snipermonkey posted:It's one thing if modders use game assets to create a standalone paid game, but quite another to create a paid mod that still requires you to buy the original game. snipermonkey posted:Ford and Toyota don't demand you to give a cut of your profits just because you used their pickup trucks to make money. Gantolandon posted:The customer is only allowed to express a positive opinion about any business scheme proposed to them and by no means should express dissatisfaction, less they risk robbing budding captains of industry of their God-given profit. I don't understand why you keep acting like there are people here saying that people shouldn't be allowed to complain. Of course people should be able to complain, but everyone else is allowed to discuss those complaints too. Thug Lessons posted:No poo poo. My point is that your opinion is mind-bendingly stupid. The Duggler posted:My opinion is fact until someone calls me out and then its just my opinion man
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:20
|
|
|
If we're entering the realm of marxist shitposting, how do you justify Bethesda profiting from free labour? You can't deny they aren't with the number of people who have said the only reason they bought TES games was because of free mods. If your position is that you are saving the modders from themselves by accepting an offer where they only get 25% how are you ok with a system where they get nothing and Bethesda gets all the benefit? I guess the possibility that they'll start paying you after you do a couple thousand hours of free work for them like that Falskaar guy is enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:20
|
|
|
^^^^^^^^ Edit: Or when they start saying the only difference between free market and glorious communism is paid mods lol It is always interesting when internet libertarians tip their hand and change rhetoric from "free market decides" to "captains of industry deserve." archangelwar fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Apr 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:22
|
|
|
Lucid Dream posted:Everyone is welcome to their opinion. Not all opinions are created equal. Some people think Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time. Some people think we should exterminate all human life. One of these opinions is valid and the other is not.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:23
|
|
|
CJ posted:If we're entering the realm of marxist shitposting, how do you justify Bethesda profiting from free labour? You can't deny they aren't with the number of people who have said the only reason they bought TES games was because of free mods. If your position is that you are saving the modders from themselves by accepting an offer where they only get 25% how are you ok with a system where they get nothing and Bethesda gets all the benefit? I guess the possibility that they'll start paying you after you do a couple thousand hours of free work for them like that Falskaar guy is enough. There's a massive difference of quality between Bethesda profiting indirectly from increased sales from people who buy their products to play mods and Bethesda + Valve skimming 75% off the top on paid mods. That said, ideally Bethesda would be paying modders directly as a result of those increased sales yes.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:24
|
|
|
The truth is that none of this matters because paid mods will be back, and people who buy/play video games are dumb idiots and will spend money on them and then complain about paid mods. If you have the self control to not buy things you don't value its a non issue
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:25
|
|
|
CJ posted:If we're entering the realm of marxist shitposting, how do you justify Bethesda profiting from free labour? You can't deny they aren't with the number of people who have said the only reason they bought TES games was because of free mods. If your position is that you are saving the modders from themselves by accepting an offer where they only get 25% how are you ok with a system where they get nothing and Bethesda gets all the benefit? I guess the possibility that they'll start paying you after you do a couple thousand hours of free work for them like that Falskaar guy is enough. Actually mods don't yet exist because money is how the community steers work.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:25
|
|
|
The Duggler posted:If you have the self control to not buy things you don't value its a non issue It is an issue because it changes the decisions of every publisher, every modder, and every consumer. It doesn't matter if I'm personally ok with paying for mods, it would still affect games and mods going forward. The fact that Steam doesn't realize they are large enough to unwittingly make changes to long standing community relationships with their little market ideas is rather sad and frightening.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:30
|
|
|
CJ posted:If we're entering the realm of marxist shitposting, how do you justify Bethesda profiting from free labour? Does anyone "justify" it? Or do people simply accept it (grudgingly or otherwise) as sort of a "done deal" at this point, after decades of modding working like this, and therefore much more difficult to deal with and less pressing than a change introduced a few days ago (and then abandoned with the reasonable suspicion that it will be back)? quote:If your position is that you are saving the modders from themselves idk about anyone else but this isn't my position. Expressing the opinion that the cut as implemented was unfair is not the same thing as imagining that I'm "saving people from themselves." Or, I guess any time I think someone's getting a raw deal I'm exposing some kind of paternal savior complex.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 14:30
|
|
|
GunnerJ posted:idk about anyone else but this isn't my position. Expressing the opinion that the cut as implemented was unfair is not the same thing as imagining that I'm "saving people from themselves." Or, I guess any time I think someone's getting a raw deal I'm exposing some kind of paternal savior complex. I just disagree that they are getting a raw deal. Workshoppers of Valve games get 25% too but there are people making a living off of it. I can't say for sure but i'm pretty sure there are people making six figures off of it. It's just weird to then try to try to tell those people that they are getting hosed over. It's different from boycotting McDonalds in support of their staff who aren't happy getting minimum wage. And the main reason they are making that much is because it's for a game with a devoted fanbase who want to spend more money on the game they like, so i don't see how you can claim that the people who made the game in the first place aren't providing some value. If you make a weather effects mod for Skyrim and then made one for Torchlight or something you'd probably make different amounts due to the amount of people willing to buy the respective mods which is a result of the companies who made the games. It's one thing to boycott a game to protest paid DLC, i just find it weird to presume to know whether the people who made it are getting a raw deal when they are telling you that they aren't.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:18
|
|
|
CJ posted:Workshoppers of Valve games get 25% too but there are people making a living off of it. They don't have to tech support, though, and have the peace of mind that random updates pushed on the base game aren't going to break their poo poo. Paid mods might work, and they might work with the modder getting a 25% cut, but the game being modded has to really sandbox its modding to prevent the kinds of severe breaking we currently see, and that would almost certainly limit the scope of mods to an unacceptable degree (at least paid ones, I could see them giving more flexibility to "you're on your own" levels of modding outside the Steam Workshop).
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:24
|
|
|
Lucid Dream posted:The purchase price of Skyrim included the game and mod tools, not the rights to use their engine and assets to generate profit. Agreed, they should probably have something in the EULA about how selling mods is not allowed and is no bueno. If only a part of it said that you are only permitted to distribute the New Materials, without charge, if only.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:24
|
|
|
Lucid Dream posted:I do understand where you are coming from here on some level, but to me it doesn't make a huge difference. You're still using their IP and engine to create profit, and I think they deserve a significant chunk of those profits. I sort of agree with you about game devs getting some of the profits of paid mods, not because I think they deserve them, but because I think it's a practical solution to encourage them to add more and better mod support. Maybe Bethesda would have deserved the 45% cut if they would have implemented some kind of quality control and better cooperation with the modders to ensure working mods, but they did none of that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:24
|
|
|
snipermonkey posted:I sort of agree with you about game devs getting some of the profits of paid mods, not because I think they deserve them, but because I think it's a practical solution to encourage them to add more and better mod support. Maybe Bethesda would have deserved the 45% cut if they would have implemented some kind of quality control and better cooperation with the modders to ensure working mods, but they did none of that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:28
|
|
|
CJ posted:It's one thing to boycott a game to protest paid DLC, i just find it weird to presume to know whether the people who made it are getting a raw deal when they are telling you that they aren't. This is the exact opposite of what happened, the vast majority of modders have condemned the terms including some of those actually involved in the paid mods scheme.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:36
|
|
|
CJ posted:I just disagree that they are getting a raw deal. That's cool. I'm not really invested in changing your mind or re-making the case for my opinion that I already made in the other thread.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:42
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:This is the exact opposite of what happened, the vast majority of modders have condemned the terms including some of those actually involved in the paid mods scheme. Did they? I'm aware that a lot of modders were against the scheme but i thought that was more on the grounds that it causes a huge clusterfuck when the mods have grown to become an interdependent mess after 3 years. Also lol who are the idiots who were involved in the scheme and accepted the terms while condemning them?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:44
|
|
|
CJ posted:Did they? I'm aware that a lot of modders were against the scheme but i thought that was more on the grounds that it causes a huge clusterfuck when the mods have grown to become an interdependent mess after 3 years. Also lol who are the idiots who were involved in the scheme and accepted the terms while condemning them? Chesko said he agreed to participate and was disappointed when they got around to telling him he'd only be making 25%. FMPONE who's like the #1 CSGO mapmaker said the terms were bad. Overall among modders the revenue sharing arrangement was one of the top sources of complaint and I honestly can't remember a single modder who defended it, maybe Arthmoor was stupid enough for that.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:47
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:This is the exact opposite of what happened, the vast majority of modders have condemned the terms including some of those actually involved in the paid mods scheme. I'll remake one part of my case to point out that the mod author who signed up for this you're referencing, Chesko, correctly pointed out that the terms of the deal would encourage mostly low-effort cosmetic changes on the scale of a TF2 hat. Sure enough, most of the mods on sale were on that scale and got lots of subscribers (customers can also tell when a deal, like 24 hours to decide a mod works and then hoping the author wants to help you fix it, is rotten). And most of the high-effort complex mods on sale had already been made and developed over sometimes years of refinement as free mods. This is because the split put 100% of the burden of QA, tech support, and customer service on the people getting only 25% of the money. So there's no real reason to think that non-authors who see this as a bad deal are armchair quarterbacks deciding they know better than anyone else. Lots of mod authors knew better and for good reasons too. GunnerJ fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Apr 29, 2015 |
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:49
|
|
|
CJ posted:Also lol who are the idiots who were involved in the scheme and accepted the terms while condemning them?  ) where he said he wasn't particularly happy with the split but accepted the deal anyway. By far most of the modders/gamedevs I've talked to about it seemed to at least understand the cut (even if they would prefer it to be higher), but it could entirely be the bubble of people I hang out with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:49
|
|
|
Thug Lessons posted:I honestly can't remember a single modder who defended it, maybe Arthmoor was stupid enough for that. Worth noting that Arthmoor is unemployed and has expressed his support for the deal in terms of his economic desperation. Makes you think.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 15:51
|
|
|
Lucid Dream posted:I agree Bethesda should have put more effort into it. I would be completely in favor of a more curated paid mod market. This is one of the conditions that I'd like to see. Bethesda really just needs to have someone look over the mods that are going premium and make sure that they have some minimum standard. Like making sure the mods in question have proper models for all races/sexes and in menus, making sure it is somewhat balanced, and having them not be added in through console commands. On the other hand though, I think it would be hot donkey poo poo if Bethesda ended up getting more money because they didn't create a proper UI for the PC and let someone else fix it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 16:23
|
|
|
So long as we are just spitballing I'd honestly have a waaaaaay smaller problem with the way funds were being distributed if Bethesda was just willing to man up and accept responsibility for the bugs that inevitably got introduced with these mods. Obviously it wouldn't happen because bug testers would require salaries and that would make the stream of free profit back into some kind of regular style revenue with real expenses and poo poo like a real company has to deal with. Hard.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 16:26
|
|
|
Grinning Goblin posted:This is one of the conditions that I'd like to see. Bethesda really just needs to have someone look over the mods that are going premium and make sure that they have some minimum standard. Like making sure the mods in question have proper models for all races/sexes and in menus, making sure it is somewhat balanced, and having them not be added in through console commands. OTOH i think it's hot donkey poo poo that Bethesda doesn't create a proper UI, and when the guy who comes along and fixes it asks for money people are outraged at him rather than Bethesda for not having a suitable UI in the first place. That's why i disagree with the people who say bug fix mods should be free. No they shouldn't, they should be paid so people demand Bethesda fix the bugs rather than giving Bethesda a free pass and expecting someone else to do it for them.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 16:32
|
|
|
Lucid Dream posted:I don't understand why you keep acting like there are people here saying that people shouldn't be allowed to complain. Of course people should be able to complain, but everyone else is allowed to discuss those complaints too. If you remember last several days ago, everyone was pretty sure that paid mods will stay. Your stance was that while, yes, Valve model has some shortcomings, the free market will ultimately make everything OK. Customers supposed to know what they're doing, so bad mods would obviously be downvoted after several days. Ultimately, like you and several other people reasoned, people want to pay for mods and modders want to get paid for them. People who wanted them to remain free were a tiny minority who didn't understand how the world works. Now, after a huge uproar, several minor scandals and Valve pulling the plug, it's everyone's fault for ruining a good business and denying you a chance to become modding tycoons. Customers, who were supposed to be 100% rational, now are idiots for not recognizing what was good for them. Bethesda and Valve, the same for-profit corporations that by no means should give anyone anything for free, are also supposed to cling to a clearly unprofitable scheme, because modders deserve payment. How is it then? Had the free market spoken? Or it doesn't count because the end result isn't what you wanted?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 16:45
|
|
GunnerJ posted:hosed up that someone can get called a weirdo for bringing Marxisty-sounding too-much-thinking into a thread in the Video Games Forum but it's cool to literally defend labor exploitation as correct and acceptable. lmao if you think bethesda taking a majority of the cut is "labor exploitation" there's no way a modder is going to invest a fraction of the time it took Bethesda to build the drat tools their using to build their mod please show me an industry where you have a company publish your product, promote it, distribute it, provide the ip, tools, and platform that it runs on for less than 45% of a cut get a job you weirdo
|
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 16:47
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:lmao if you think bethesda taking a majority of the cut is "labor exploitation" Wait a mi- quote:promote it, What? quote:distribute it, They what? quote:provide the ip, tools, and platform that it runs on for less than 45% of a cut All right, this is what they actually did. The IP already existed since TES: Arena and served to produce at least five games. The "platform" is actually a game which has to be bought by each modder and each person who wants to buy a mod. And making content creation for a game easy, Bethesda ensured its longevity. Not only it brings more customers, it also keeps at least a part of them engaged in their IP so they will be more receptive when another game hits the shelves. There is nothing there that makes 45% cut reasonable.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:04
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:lmao if you think bethesda taking a majority of the cut is "labor exploitation" You quoted a person saying free modding is better than paid modding and accused him of "cultural marxism".
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:06
|
|
|
down with slavery posted:get a job you weirdo rich, coming from someone who advocates panhandling on the internet via video game mods 
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:25
|
|
|
the falskaar guy who got hired by bungie is a fucker idiot bitch compared to me, video game industry (captain of), getting cut a steambux check barely high enough to get me a wow sub after I put my poo poo behind a paywall 
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:30
|
|
|
ANIME IS BLOOD posted:the falskaar guy who got hired by bungie is a fucker idiot bitch compared to me, video game industry (captain of), getting cut a steambux check barely high enough to get me a wow sub after I put my poo poo behind a paywall This but unironically. By the way as a result of Gaben showing his true colours by trying to sell mods and then not selling them, some redditors on /r/pcmasterrrace have decided to make their own digital distribution platform http://www.reddit.com/r/Project_Ascension  As you can see you have the Store, Library, Mods and PC Gaming News. The mods are separate from the store because they won't sell the mods.
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:37
|
|
|
Gantolandon posted:People who wanted them to remain free were a tiny minority who didn't understand how the world works. Gantolandon posted:Now, after a huge uproar, several minor scandals and Valve pulling the plug, it's everyone's fault for ruining a good business and denying you a chance to become modding tycoons. Gantolandon posted:Customers, who were supposed to be 100% rational, now are idiots for not recognizing what was good for them. Gantolandon posted:Bethesda and Valve, the same for-profit corporations that by no means should give anyone anything for free, are also supposed to cling to a clearly unprofitable scheme, because modders deserve payment. Gantolandon posted:How is it then? Had the free market spoken? Or it doesn't count because the end result isn't what you wanted?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:39
|
|
|
CJ posted:This but unironically. start a patreon and make the backer rewards a guarantee to not post. that, I would pay for
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:44
|
|
|
How many of the issues brought up in this whole thing would have been moot if a third-party service like ModDB unveiled paid mods?
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 17:45
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 19:25 |
|
|
down with slavery posted:lmao if you think bethesda taking a majority of the cut is "labor exploitation" Not actually what I was referring to. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 29, 2015 18:11
|
|