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Maybe if workers are paid more they will spend the extra money on things provided by businesses.
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May 5, 2015 02:37
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thehomemaster posted:I don't see how communists think that this is a better idea than redistribution from the wealthy? I guess communists are the only ones capable of multitasking.
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May 5, 2015 02:38
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Ervin K posted:Now that I recently finished my education I'm making around $14 an hour, and the idea that some teenager can get a zero-skill job and start getting paid more than I did after years of studying is absurd. If you want to get paid more, go to school, get promoted, or get a job with hazard pay. Otherwise, consume less. 
Rodatose fucked around with this message at 02:43 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 02:41
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Birdstrike posted:Maybe if workers are paid more they will spend the extra money on things provided by businesses. poors will just hoard money now let me tell you why "job creators" need more tax breaks
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May 5, 2015 02:42
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"consume less" aka if you're not subsisting on bulk internet lentil gruel you get no sympathy from me
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May 5, 2015 02:43
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spoon0042 posted:poors will just hoard money now let me tell you why "job creators" need more tax breaks Top tier discussion going on in this thread. I have a brilliant counterpoint: Everyone in this thread majored in women's studies and is now upset that their McDonald's paycheck isn't enough to buy organic food with. I can do it too! 
Ervin K fucked around with this message at 02:47 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 02:43
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Ervin K posted:$15 an hour is ridiculous. I've made minimum wage most of my young life (which was $10.50 CAD where I live), and that was more than reasonable considering the work I did was extremely simple and required no education or training. Also, at the time finding a job was much harder than putting up with the low pay. Now that I recently finished my education I'm making around $14 an hour, and the idea that some teenager can get a zero-skill job and start getting paid more than I did after years of studying is absurd. If you want to get paid more, go to school, get promoted, or get a job with hazard pay. Otherwise, consume less. Raising the minimum to $15 for work that any stupid teenager can do is just going to make everything really expensive for everyone else and make it even harder for uneducated people to get jobs. You're not going to transfer wealth from the rich to the poor this way, all this will accomplish is expand the lower class and raise the poverty line. lmao look at this peasant, this self-hating prole. good crab mentality you got there
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May 5, 2015 02:43
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Ervin K posted:Now that I recently finished my education I'm making around $14 an hour, and the idea that some teenager can get a zero-skill job and start getting paid more than I did after years of studying is absurd. This is and has always been the flimsiest argument against a higher minimum wage. If you are happy with your job, how much you make there should be irrelevant compared to what others make elsewhere, and if you were making 15 an hour like everyone else and you were not happy with your job, you should get another one. Other people making enough money to not starve or have to live paycheck to paycheck would be beneficial to the economy, and therefore to you, in every way unless you were a massively wealthy CEO who had to buy one less yacht every year.
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May 5, 2015 02:44
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Ervin K posted:$15 an hour is ridiculous. I've made minimum wage most of my young life (which was $10.50 CAD where I live), and that was more than reasonable considering the work I did was extremely simple and required no education or training. Also, at the time finding a job was much harder than putting up with the low pay. Now that I recently finished my education I'm making around $14 an hour, and the idea that some teenager can get a zero-skill job and start getting paid more than I did after years of studying is absurd. If you want to get paid more, go to school, get promoted, or get a job with hazard pay. Otherwise, consume less. Raising the minimum to $15 for work that any stupid teenager can do is just going to make everything really expensive for everyone else and make it even harder for uneducated people to get jobs. You're not going to transfer wealth from the rich to the poor this way, all this will accomplish is expand the lower class and raise the poverty line. Oh hey, crab mentality. Also, aren't you assuming that your $14 an hour job has any real skill to it.
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May 5, 2015 02:45
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Ervin K posted:Is this an actual term that idiots use these days? So you think that there should be lower fertility rates in the underclass? You are supporting the doom of capitalism here. The EITC and Medicaid are not even close to sufficient for raising a child, so the government really, really doesn't. Maybe in your sweet land of Communist Canada it does (it probably doesn't). Our society also provides woefully inadequate contraceptive access to members of the lower class, so there is less opportunity to prevent childbirth for people who need higher wages and government support the most. Other than "never gently caress," I suppose, but if you believe that is an appropriate message to send to low wage workers then you are both a terrible person and a complete moron. I see no legitimate basis in your argument that is entirely founded on pathetic crab bucket ideology.
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May 5, 2015 02:47
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Not to be boastful but I got $15/hour when I had (mostly) finished my education too. That was 35 years ago. The fact that the modern employment scene is so bleak for young people with an education in the midst of an economy that's vastly larger than it was back then is absolutely terrible. You're being robbed and you're arguing that it's a good thing. [edit] robbed, cheated, exploited; whatever makes you maddest
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May 5, 2015 02:48
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Cubey posted:This is and has always been the flimsiest argument against a higher minimum wage. If you are happy with your job, how much you make there should be irrelevant compared to what others make elsewhere, and if you were making 15 an hour like everyone else and you were not happy with your job, you should get another one. Other people making enough money to not starve or have to live paycheck to paycheck would be beneficial to the economy, and therefore to you, in every way unless you were a massively wealthy CEO who had to buy one less yacht every year. Still better than 90% of arguments in favor of it. Also since you missed something very clear, I was arguing against a $15/hr minimum wage.
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May 5, 2015 02:49
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Ervin K posted:Still better than 90% of arguments in favor of it. How is that better of an argument than 'maybe people starving because they make such low wages is a bad thing and we should fix that' or 'this would stimulate the economy and bring more wealth to everyone but the most wealthy'? Ervin K posted:Also since you missed something very clear, I was arguing against a $15/hr minimum wage. I did not miss this at all, that was exactly what I was responding to 
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May 5, 2015 02:50
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Ervin K posted:Still better than 90% of arguments in favor of it. Also since you missed something very clear, I was arguing against a $15/hr minimum wage. You realize that in real terms you're being paid less than somebody doing your job (or an equivalent) a few decades ago, right? And that that's true even though the people you're working for are much wealthier than employers back then?
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May 5, 2015 02:51
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emfive posted:You realize that in real terms you're being paid less than somebody doing your job (or an equivalent) a few decades ago, right? And that that's true even though the people you're working for are much wealthier than employers back then? Technically, my job didn't exist 20 years ago, it's not a field that people go to to make a lot of money.
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May 5, 2015 02:53
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Ervin K posted:Technically, my job didn't exist 20 years ago, it's not a field that people go to to make a lot of money. So you're working in a field and admitting that you aren't doing it to make a lot of money. This indicates you enjoy what you are doing. Why would you then be against other people making a living wage as you do? Why would you want others to not make enough money to reasonably survive on?
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May 5, 2015 02:56
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Ervin K posted:Technically, my job didn't exist 20 years ago, it's not a field that people go to to make a lot of money. Like the skilled jouster, I think that you missed the thrust of old man emfive's post.
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May 5, 2015 02:56
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^^  Ervin K posted:Technically, my job didn't exist 20 years ago, it's not a field that people go to to make a lot of money. So if you're doing work that you want to do why on earth would you argue that people who are doing jobs to stay alive shouldn't make as much? What kind of monster are you, out of curiosity? emfive fucked around with this message at 03:00 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 02:57
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when minimum wage rises, then a few things can happen to higher paying skilled labor positions 1. skilled professions that compete with unskilled professions in the labor market have to raise their wages so that it's worth it for skilled workers 2. costs of training have to go down or be subsidized so the labor demand can be met in that field 3. if the job's not socially necessary and not profitable anymore, then society switches to more efficient alternatives for that skilled job It's not like "oh minimum wage rose! now I'm poorer than fast food workers forever!" Like if it was then with all the minwage raises in the past, you would have seen the complete disappearance of skilled jobs. The only other reason for that rationale is that you're mad that you spent a sunk cost that you were promised would ensure a secure position when nothing is guaranteed in the free market, and would bring harm to others so that you don't feel as bad about it.
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May 5, 2015 02:58
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thehomemaster posted:I don't see how communists think that this is a better idea than redistribution from the wealthy? No, communists was popular control of the means of production. But yes, this is a half measure that really nobody on the left except for people who've lowered their expectations after years of political failure wants
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May 5, 2015 03:03
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icantfindaname posted:No, communists was popular control of the means of production. But yes, this is a half measure that really nobody on the left except for people who've lowered their expectations after years of political failure wants To be fair, that is essentially synonymous with the non-delusional left.
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May 5, 2015 03:05
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emfive posted:^^ I'm not arguing about how much people should be making, you people are doing some pretty hardcore mental gymnastics here. I'm arguing that the government shouldn't force companies to pay people $15 just for showing up. Also we all do jobs to stay alive, I'm curious in what part of America do you need to make $15 an hour to stay alive? And another point nobody has addressed yet; how are jobless people going to "stay alive" after that higher minimum wage raises prices for everything and makes it even harder to get a job? Keep projecting if it makes you feel better. Ervin K fucked around with this message at 03:08 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 03:05
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One thing that gets neglected in any discussion of the minimum wage is how many people work multiple jobs just to support themselves. If, for the sake of argument, hiking the minimum wage up to a living-wage level cuts those jobs by 10% or so, but 50-60% of people with those jobs worked two jobs before and now work one, the number of jobs increases. (1000 workers = 1500 jobs - (0.1*1500) = 1350 jobs = 35% increase in people employed). This is not authoritative, but you would need minimum-wage hikes to seriously cut the number of jobs in order to see a net decrease given how many people work multiple jobs. Ervin K posted:I'm not arguing about how much people should be making, you people are doing some pretty hardcore mental gymnastics here. I'm arguing that the government shouldn't force companies to pay people $15 just for showing up. Also we all do jobs to stay alive, I'm curious in what part of America do you need to make $15 an hour to stay alive? http://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/26163
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May 5, 2015 03:07
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Ervin K posted:Welcome to the real world, it's never going to change no matter how hard you try. The adorable thing is that this somehow upsets you. Okay, so why do retarded manchild conservatives scream and throw louder and louder tantrums when left wing policy is enacted and is successful? The world's not going to change no matter how hard they try. You should take your own advice
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May 5, 2015 03:07
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Ervin K posted:I'm not arguing about how much people should be making, you people are doing some pretty hardcore mental gymnastics here. I'm arguing that the government shouldn't force companies to pay people $15 just for showing up. Also we all do jobs to stay alive, I'm curious in what part of America do you need to make $15 an hour to stay alive? I'm not arguing how much people should make, I'm arguing about how much their employers should pay them. Also, have you never heard of the San Francisco Bay Area? Well, I have quite the tale to tell
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May 5, 2015 03:10
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icantfindaname posted:No, communists was popular control of the means of production. But yes, this is a half measure that really nobody on the left except for people who've lowered their expectations after years of political failure wants Plus if you're a marxist then it's accelerationist too, because das kapital goes into depth about how, despite whining about labor laws, larger capitalists have always been able to adjust with ease to regulations. And in the long run regulations lead to A>the concentration of capital into fewer hands as smaller capitalists are unable to compete and B> replacing more of variable capital (workers) with fixed capital (machines). Once that happens, then you try to socialize the gains from converting the workforce to machinery that the fewer private owners are getting, either through Keynesian social democratic measures that allow capitalists to remain in charge, or forceful expropriation (revolutionary socialism or what's politically referred to when people talk about communist parties) that puts that concentrated capital into public hands
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May 5, 2015 03:11
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icantfindaname posted:Okay, so why do retarded manchild conservatives scream and throw louder and louder tantrums when left wing policy is enacted and is successful? The world's not going to change no matter how hard they try. You should take your own advice Well I'm not surprised my point went over your head. What I was trying to say is that no government policy is going to change the value of low skill jobs. But keep crying about "DEM CONSERVATIVES  " All the best temper tantrums are here on SA Ervin K fucked around with this message at 03:14 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 03:11
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Ervin K posted:Well I'm not surprised my point went over your head. What I was trying to say is that no government policy is going to change the value of low skill jobs. But keep crying about "DEM CONSERVATIVES Government policy has already changed the value of low-skill jobs by failing to increase the minimum wage in step with inflation, therefore devaluing those jobs.
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May 5, 2015 03:13
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Ervin K posted:Well I'm not surprised my point went over your head. What I was trying to say is that no government policy is going to change the value of low skill jobs. But keep crying about "DEM CONSERVATIVES Even the lowest-skill job is necessary for society to survive. What you are saying is that some people are doing necessary work, but should nevertheless live in never-ending squalor because you somebody has to live a worse life then you or your relative success in life has no meaning.
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May 5, 2015 03:14
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Ervin K posted:in what part of America do you need to make $15 an hour to stay alive? So you actually have no idea what you're talking about, right? You're not living in the US, right?
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May 5, 2015 03:14
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emfive posted:So you actually have no idea what you're talking about, right? You're not living in the US, right? So what if he's not American, a threat to bootstraps somewhere is a threat to bootstraps everywhere  
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May 5, 2015 03:15
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thehomemaster posted:Hey look raising the mimum wage is fine, but $15 bucks an hour? Nah, get out. Depends where you live. $15/h in SF means something different than $15/h in suburban Ohio.
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May 5, 2015 03:15
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What you are saying is Please tell me more about what I'm saying, I'm dying to know! emfive posted:So you actually have no idea what you're talking about, right? You're not living in the US, right? Anyway, I've posted enough. I didn't really expect anything more than you guys to get really mad over someone else's opinions. I'm just gonna enjoy reading all the posts about "Why doesn't the rest of the country understand that were correct about everything! "
Ervin K fucked around with this message at 03:20 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 03:15
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emfive posted:So you actually have no idea what you're talking about, right? You're not living in the US, right? even homeless people are technically alive. check and mate pinhead
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May 5, 2015 03:17
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Ervin K posted:Top tier discussion going on in this thread. I majored in English and make a hell of a lot more than 14/hour
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May 5, 2015 03:17
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Ervin K posted:i used to live in the suburbs This explains why you seem to have absolutely no perspective on what it's like to be poor in America.
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May 5, 2015 03:18
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Ervin K posted:Well I'm not surprised my point went over your head. What I was trying to say is that no government policy is going to change the value of low skill jobs. But keep crying about "DEM CONSERVATIVES You infantilize arguments of people that disagree with you because you know nothing of which you are talking about. How do you define the "value" of low skilled labor? Because if you define it as the amount of income for the employer that it produces, then minimum wage workers are clearly being under compensated. If you define it by what the market is willing to pay, then what is the value of the director that serves on the board of a publicly traded corporation and receives hundreds of thousands in compensation for an average of four and a half hours of work? It certainly is not managerial skills, as tasks requiring those skills are left to the corporate officers.
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May 5, 2015 03:19
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Ervin K posted:Anyway, I've posted enough. I didn't really expect anything more than you guys to get really mad over someone else's opinions. I'm just gonna enjoy reading all the posts about "Why doesn't the rest of the country understand that were correct about everything! There you go, folks. One of the principal obstacles to raising awareness and support for better wages is that college educated low-wage workers think it's a terrible idea, and they're smug about it.
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May 5, 2015 03:21
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Jagchosis posted:You infantilize arguments of people that disagree with you because you know nothing of which you are talking about.
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May 5, 2015 03:21
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Ervin K posted:Is this an actual term that idiots use these days? If you want to have a minimum wage debate D&D is possibly the worst place to have it, because there is too much of an emotional attachment to the minimum wage as a policy (rather than as a principle) that opposing it basically makes you what an apostate is to a true believer.
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