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Ervin K posted:Keep projecting if it makes you feel better. Ervin K posted:This is a total coincidence, but i used to live in suburban Ohio. Me too. Did you notice that the janitors, or restaurant workers, or food court workers, or warehouse workers, or anyone else in everyday interactions that help society run, were actual people when you interacted with them? Did you notice those positions weren't all filled with teenagers/young adults that you knew from school, and so had to come from some other background? Rodatose fucked around with this message at 03:32 on May 5, 2015 |
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May 5, 2015 03:22
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Area Man Accuses Bystanders of Throwing a Temper Tantrum With Angry Tears Welling Up More at 11
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May 5, 2015 03:22
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Abolish the minimum wage and funnel all resources into robotics research. Within 10 years we will have full blown techno-communism.
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May 5, 2015 03:22
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Ervin K have you ever hosed a watermelon?
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May 5, 2015 03:23
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Ervin K posted:My god, the irony, the glorious irony. Whatever you say buddy! Yes my God the irony. Post  again, it will surely own people who have any idea of what the gently caress they're talking about.
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May 5, 2015 03:24
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paragon1 posted:Area Man Accuses Bystanders of Throwing a Temper Tantrum With Angry Tears Welling Up Look he used to live in the suburbs once, he clearly understands poverty in America and that people should just deal with it
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May 5, 2015 03:25
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Typo posted:If you want to have a minimum wage debate D&D is possibly the worst place to have it, because there is too much of an emotional attachment to the minimum wage as a policy (rather than as a principle) that opposing it basically makes you what an apostate is to a true believer. Yea take it to freep.
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May 5, 2015 03:25
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I majored in history and make no money because my history degree is worth less than the paper it's printed on. I do agree that colleges should teach a real life 101 class, but this is about the minimum wage. As some people have said, until we get efficient and autonomous robots, we are always going to need people to do 'low skill' jobs, janitors, harvesters, what have you. Those things are literally a necessity if you like clean buildings or food. Why should they be paid less than anyone else if their work is vital? Why shouldn't they be able to have a comfortable life? And I think a big problem with economics is its so politicized asking a big group of x economists is much different from another big group. I'm basically reminded of this sketch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQSMsH9PF_I
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May 5, 2015 03:25
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Typo posted:If you want to have a minimum wage debate D&D is possibly the worst place to have it, because there is too much of an emotional attachment to the minimum wage as a policy (rather than as a principle) that opposing it basically makes you what an apostate is to a true believer. Yah, everyone should be Mr. Motherfucking Spock about this.
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May 5, 2015 03:25
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paragon1 posted:Ervin K have you ever hosed a watermelon? He has, for 14 Canadian dollars an hour, and by gum, he earned it. Unlike those ungrateful poors.
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May 5, 2015 03:26
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Typical Pubbie posted:Abolish the minimum wage and funnel all resources into robotics research. Within 10 years we will have full blown techno-communism. Robot Stalin will really be the Man of Steel!
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May 5, 2015 03:26
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Effectronica posted:Yah, everyone should be Mr. Motherfucking Spock about this. *Is unironically proud of the fact that he doesn't want to have a rational discussion.
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May 5, 2015 03:27
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Typo posted:*Is unironically proud of the fact that he doesn't want to have a rational discussion. I'm unsure as to what kind of rationality one could bring into a conversation about minimum wage that advocates keeping it as it is now. By all means, I would love to hear what you have to say.
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May 5, 2015 03:28
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Ervin K posted:Well I'm not surprised my point went over your head. What I was trying to say is that no government policy is going to change the value of low skill jobs. But keep crying about "DEM CONSERVATIVES The government can and does change the value of minimum wage jobs? By fiat? By declaring a minimum wage? Like I get you're not particularly bright but this is basic stuff dude. I don't care about your subjective valuation of low skilled labor, it's worth whatever the employer pays for it, and if they are required to pay a minimum wage then viola
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May 5, 2015 03:28
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Typo posted:*Is unironically proud of the fact that he doesn't want to have a rational discussion. Be the change you want to see buddy.
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May 5, 2015 03:28
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Typo posted:*Is unironically proud of the fact that he doesn't want to have a rational discussion. Because the counter arguments have been so good and convincing.
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May 5, 2015 03:30
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paragon1 posted:Area Man Accuses Bystanders of Throwing a Temper Tantrum With Angry Tears Welling Up Man Making $14.50 An Hour At The Local Amazon Warehouse Spits On Minimum Wage Workers
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May 5, 2015 03:30
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Typo posted:*Is unironically proud of the fact that he doesn't want to have a rational discussion. The idea that "rationality" means not having any emotional investment is a pernicious kind of insanity, one that is basically coterminous with technocracy.
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May 5, 2015 03:36
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Hmm yes another thread where the ~rational argument~ involves either corporate welfare through EITC and social programs for reduced min wage or simply continuing to ignore economic underclass being exploited. Please think of the poor companies
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May 5, 2015 03:37
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Effectronica posted:The idea that "rationality" means not having any emotional investment is a pernicious kind of insanity, one that is basically coterminous with technocracy. Star Trek has repeatedly demonstrated the limitations of such thinking. Ultimately the Vulcans are a stunted race, constitutionally limited in their ability to understand the political reality around them, always secondary to the more emotionally vibrant humans. Truly a lesson for the ages.
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May 5, 2015 03:38
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It would be really jarring to have the minimum wage raised so high, so quickly. Anything i've ever seen on minimum wages increasing is usually implemented in a 'roll out' over the course of a couple years. It would be pretty awesome to wake up tomorrow morning with everybody making mad stacks. Well, every American, anyway.
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May 5, 2015 03:38
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joeburz posted:Hmm yes another thread where the ~rational argument~ involves either corporate welfare through EITC and social programs for reduced min wage or simply continuing to ignore economic underclass being exploited. He's so rational though. He posted even, to demonstrate how rational he is.
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May 5, 2015 03:39
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Eimi posted:I majored in history and make no money because my history degree is worth less than the paper it's printed on. I do agree that colleges should teach a real life 101 class, but this is about the minimum wage. As some people have said, until we get efficient and autonomous robots, we are always going to need people to do 'low skill' jobs, janitors, harvesters, what have you. Those things are literally a necessity if you like clean buildings or food. Why should they be paid less than anyone else if their work is vital? Why shouldn't they be able to have a comfortable life? FYI those things already are and can continue to be addressed by policy other than minimum wage. Minimum wage is fascinating [here] because it's a bizarre intersection of leftism and market economics. "We must use the market to address social welfare". Really?
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May 5, 2015 03:39
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icantfindaname posted:The government can and does change the value of minimum wage jobs? By fiat? By declaring a minimum wage? Like I get you're not particularly bright but this is basic stuff dude. I don't care about your subjective valuation of low skilled labor, it's worth whatever the employer pays for it, and if they are required to pay a minimum wage then viola Price != value. The government can set the price of labor by fiat, but I can't think of any feasible way for it to set the value. Price controls are generally a bad thing. The D&D consensus after MW threads play themselves out is that the MW is the worst of the best policy options for boosting incomes at the bottom of the pay-scale. Ideally society would eliminate the minimum wage, tax wealth, and transfer the revenue from those taxes to all Americans in the form of an expanded EITC and more robust social welfare programs.
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May 5, 2015 03:40
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Typical Pubbie posted:Price != value. The government can set the price of labor by fiat, but I can't think of any feasible way for it to set the value. Price controls are generally a bad thing. The D&D consensus after MW threads play themselves out is that the MW is the worst of the best policy options for boosting incomes at the bottom of the pay-scale. Ideally society would eliminate the minimum wage, tax wealth, and transfer the revenue from those taxes to all Americans in the form of an expanded EITC and more robust social welfare programs. How do you define value?
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May 5, 2015 03:42
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asdf32 posted:FYI those things already are and can continue to be addressed by policy other than minimum wage. In a perfect world we don't need min wage but because most of the country is selfish poo poo lords you gotta go with what can be passed
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May 5, 2015 03:42
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Typical Pubbie posted:Price != value. The government can set the price of labor by fiat, but I can't think of any feasible way for it to set the value. Price controls are generally a bad thing. The D&D consensus after MW threads play themselves out is that the MW is the worst of the best policy options for boosting incomes at the bottom of the pay-scale. Ideally society would eliminate the minimum wage, tax wealth, and transfer the revenue from those taxes to all Americans in the form of an expanded EITC and more robust social welfare programs. Why would we need to eliminate the minimum wage?
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May 5, 2015 03:43
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Typical Pubbie posted:Price != value. The government can set the price of labor by fiat, but I can't think of any feasible way for it to set the value. Price controls are generally a bad thing. The D&D consensus after MW threads play themselves out is that the MW is the worst of the best policy options for boosting incomes at the bottom of the pay-scale. Ideally society would eliminate the minimum wage, tax wealth, and transfer the revenue from those taxes to all Americans in the form of an expanded EITC and more robust social welfare programs. Why EITC though? Why not just mincome? Why make it conditional upon a company being willing to sign off that you did work on a form, make-work or no? Think about the value equation when you're basically saying that a company can hire employees basically for free. That can only lead to incredible inefficiency in labor utilization.
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May 5, 2015 03:44
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joeburz posted:In a perfect world we don't need min wage but because most of the country is selfish poo poo lords you gotta go with what can be passed Yeah to me that is probably the best argument for the min wage, there's a whole bunch of other policies you could pass to do the same thing with less of the negatives attached to it but the are politically unviable.
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May 5, 2015 03:44
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why EITC though? Why not just mincome? Why make it conditional upon a company being willing to sign off that you did work on a form, make-work or no? Because the values that have been imprinted on me make me thing needlessly difficult work is the only way to be valued in society!
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May 5, 2015 03:47
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Typo posted:If you want to have a minimum wage debate D&D is possibly the worst place to have it, because there is too much of an emotional attachment to the minimum wage as a policy (rather than as a principle) that opposing it basically makes you what an apostate is to a true believer. Okay, let me try be logically principled about this. To oppose a living wage - a wage that has kept up with inflation and allows one to purchase the necessities of life for them and theirs - is to say that some people should not be allowed to stay alive. That is to say, they would do harm to the human body by cutting off some part of it on the rationale that the sacrifice is necessary for the gain of a smaller section of society they belong to. This is antisocial behavior - behavior directed against the majority of society. Those who oppose a living wage argue that raising the minimum wage would result in higher unemployment - that is, some people would not be able to earn that living wage anyway. Let's disregard whether or not that last point is true (I would point to how it isn't, but that isn't part of this thought exercise). Here we have two outcomes: if wages remain stagnant, some people will not be able to earn a living wage. If minwages are raised, some people will not be able to earn a living wage. Some people will die anyway no matter what in their scenario! So, why should we not weed out those who vocally advocate antisocial behavior - that is, those who advocate doing harm to the human body for the sake of the few and letting the many suffer? If we do that, then the labor surplus they say would be created would be fixed, and those who remain in accord with the human body would enjoy the higher minimum wage with less social conflict enacted by the class of people who do harm to the many for their own private gain. This benefits the most people overall. 584 friedman units obtained. Level up! You gre wto level 34!
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May 5, 2015 03:48
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Jagchosis posted:How do you define value? Value is the benefit provided by a good or service. If value == price then trade is pointless, because you'll never be able to derive surplus value from an exchange. You will only be able to exchange one good or service for a good or service of the exact same value/price.
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May 5, 2015 03:49
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why EITC though? Why not just mincome? Why make it conditional upon a company being willing to sign off that you did work on a form, make-work or no? I'm not sure if the EITC does this already but you could include some kind of a GMI into a negative income tax it by simply have a tax bracket where you get refunds for making $0
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May 5, 2015 03:49
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Why would we provide min income when it will just lead to those people getting it who don't deserve my pitifully insignificant tax dollars
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May 5, 2015 03:50
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Look if you don't like it when someone advocates purges for pragmatic social gains, maybe you're being a little emotional?
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May 5, 2015 03:51
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Rodatose posted:Look if you don't like it when someone advocates purges for pragmatic social gains, maybe you're being a little emotional? Kill all whites.
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May 5, 2015 03:52
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Typo posted:I'm not sure if the EITC does this already but you could include some kind of a GMI into a negative income tax it by simply have a tax bracket where you get refunds for making $0 Why bother with all the complication, though? Just do progressive taxation for whatever other income they have (including investment  ). If someone is making enough money, the taxes they pay will exceed the mincome anyway. 
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May 5, 2015 03:54
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Effectronica posted:Why would we need to eliminate the minimum wage? We don't need to eliminate it, it's just inefficient, and it does place a greater burden on small business. Either just give people the money they need to live and let them use this new found bartering power in their own wage negotiations, or take a more indirect approach with an expanded EITC.
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May 5, 2015 03:55
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Why bother with all the complication, though? Just do progressive taxation for whatever other income they have (including investment Because then you are simultaneously giving them an incentive to work as well as providing them with a guaranteed standard of living. Which sounds to me is the exact principle behind the minimum wage except now you don't get a lot of the negative parts of its implementation.
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May 5, 2015 03:56
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Typo posted:Because then you are simultaneously giving them an incentive to work as well as providing them with a guaranteed standard of living. Why is it necessary that people work?
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May 5, 2015 03:56
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