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Check for worse gear chipping. I can't see it very well in that photo, but it's not a good thing, you may need a new R&P set for that differential and to set it back up. At the very least you should get any/all rust off of the gear tooth mating surfaces, preferably with something like a brass brush, evaporust treatment, etc. Abrasives, files, and metal brushes of similar hardness to the gears are verboten. If they're still available (I think you can basically build a CJ2A/Willys from a catalog with nothing original except the serial number plate at this point, so I'd be surprised if you can't get gears) it's a job that requires 1-200 bucks in tools and a solid day on your first go-through. After that, it typically takes less time. It's one of the few tasks that most gearheads either are ignorant of and just slap the parts together (then wonder why the gears eat themselves in a few hundred miles or fail immediately), or view as the territory of wizards, even though anyone with enough attention to detail, cleanliness, and patience can do well.
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Apr 8, 2016 20:37
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kastein posted:At the very least you should get any/all rust off of the gear tooth mating surfaces, preferably with something like a brass brush, evaporust treatment, etc. Abrasives, files, and metal brushes of similar hardness to the gears are verboten. Is there any reason not to use the electrolysis tank like he's been using for other parts, or is that filed under the etc. portion of that first sentence? I don't know much about differentials or electrolysis but I'm curious.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:28
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Having not used an electrolysis tank I can't tell you for sure, but if it results in an etched surface (given a clean rust free piece of metal) the answer is no. Gears acquire a lapped, worn-in surface pattern on their meshing surfaces that should not be damaged unless you want to weaken the gears and/or shorten their usable life. Ideally, they should never get rusty on those surfaces, but if they do, you want to remove the rust and nothing else. If electrolysis left going too long can dissolve more metal, it's probably best to either babysit them very carefully or use another rust removal process.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:51
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kastein posted:Having not used an electrolysis tank I can't tell you for sure, but if it results in an etched surface (given a clean rust free piece of metal) the answer is no. Gears acquire a lapped, worn-in surface pattern on their meshing surfaces that should not be damaged unless you want to weaken the gears and/or shorten their usable life. Ideally, they should never get rusty on those surfaces, but if they do, you want to remove the rust and nothing else. If electrolysis left going too long can dissolve more metal, it's probably best to either babysit them very carefully or use another rust removal process. Shouldn't the electrolysis convert rust back to iron? I wouldn't think there'd be removal of anything...
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Apr 8, 2016 21:55
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Great, thanks. Like I said, I don't know enough about electrolysis to know what the transition from "only removes rust" to "starts breaking down entire workpiece on an atomic level" looks like. Seems to me like it would be a better move all around to just replace the components with new.
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Apr 8, 2016 21:58
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casque posted:Shouldn't the electrolysis convert rust back to iron? I wouldn't think there'd be removal of anything... I don't believe electrolytic rust removal does that, no. And if it did - who's to say it's going to end back in the structure and shape it was in the first place? Gears are generally made from an 8000 series steel forging; there's a lot going on in there other than pure iron and much of its structure, hardening, and other elemental content is going to be lost.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:05
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SCA Enthusiast posted:Great, thanks. Like I said, I don't know enough about electrolysis to know what the transition from "only removes rust" to "starts breaking down entire workpiece on an atomic level" looks like. I'm no expert either, but I can say that it seems to remove only rust and other crap on the surface of the metal. When I was building my tank I watched this video. Look at the surface when he's done. The process didn't do any damage to the etched ruler markings on the rusty surface. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKZv14-K71g kastein posted:Check for worse gear chipping. I can't see it very well in that photo, but it's not a good thing, you may need a new R&P set for that differential and to set it back up. At the very least you should get any/all rust off of the gear tooth mating surfaces, preferably with something like a brass brush, evaporust treatment, etc. . The rust is all off. Unless you're talking about a tiny film of surface rust in some spots. I was going to wipe that off with a rag and spirits before sealing it all up and adding the fluid. I'll check the gears more closely and snap some better pics.
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Apr 8, 2016 22:38
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Better pictures of the gear damage. The pitted part is at the top right area.  The chipped parts are circled in red. 
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Apr 8, 2016 23:25
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kastein posted:I don't believe electrolytic rust removal does that, no. And if it did - who's to say it's going to end back in the structure and shape it was in the first place? Gears are generally made from an 8000 series steel forging; there's a lot going on in there other than pure iron and much of its structure, hardening, and other elemental content is going to be lost. I always imagined electrolytic rust removal would reduce the rust to Iron that would remain on the surface of the workpiece which is the dark residue that folks then wash away. In the case of steel, I'm sure you're not going back from surface rust to the starting alloy. I suspect the iron in the bulk of rust that's visible to the eye is entirely Fe2O3 and the iron is no longer a part of the original steel lattice structure, so reducing it wouldn't make it go back into the structure. But then, I don't really know what the edge of a steel lattice structure looks like and I'm speculating quite a bit at this point.
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Apr 9, 2016 00:12
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Agreed, and it doesn't sound like electrolytic rust removal would hurt gears. I say give it a shot. Then clean the parts and give em a coating of light oil to keep flash rust off till you assemble it. I wouldn't bother replacing the bearings just yet, just put it all back together and see if it howls, whirs, or grinds like a motherfucker when you drive it. If it does, it's time for new gears. Those chips don't look good but I can't see how far down the teeth to the troughs between the teeth the chips go. If they're only right at the crest of the teeth it MIGHT be OK... but I'd still not expect much out of them.
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Apr 9, 2016 00:16
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Let's do a comparison. I just put this in the bucket:  I'll pull it out tomorrow and do nothing but rinse it off and post a pic. Of course, that assumes my battery charger won't quit on me tonight. It's been acting up lately.
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Apr 9, 2016 01:41
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In theory there's a risk of hydrogen embrittlement from using electrolysis on things like gears. However, if you're concerned about that, a domestic oven is hot enough to carry out the "bake off" heat treatment to get any hydrogen out again. A few (~4) hours at about 200 C seems commonly suggested, which ties up with the temperatures (though not the times) used in a manufacturing environment. I'm honestly not sure how significant the risk is, though. I might have a chat with the metallurgists at work about it.
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Apr 9, 2016 13:04
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InitialDave posted:In theory there's a risk of hydrogen embrittlement from using electrolysis on things like gears. However, if you're concerned about that, a domestic oven is hot enough to carry out the "bake off" heat treatment to get any hydrogen out again. A few (~4) hours at about 200 C seems commonly suggested, which ties up with the temperatures (though not the times) used in a manufacturing environment.
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Apr 9, 2016 16:12
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   It looks like these parts are too damaged to be usable. Do any of you know? Also, what's a good place to get replacement, if that's what I have to do.
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Apr 9, 2016 18:46
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They need to be replaced.
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Apr 9, 2016 19:35
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The pinion gear (smaller one) is trashed.
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Apr 9, 2016 20:18
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spacetoaster posted:
Woof. I'd say both gears have chooched their last. Surely there's some old military jeep restoration place that carries them. Any idea on a make and model of the rear end?
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Apr 9, 2016 22:46
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:Any idea on a make and model of the rear end? Not really. I thought it was a 1944, but I'm finding that my grandfather changed stuff.
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Apr 9, 2016 22:58
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8ender posted:Small town NAPAs are the best because they are staffed by grey beard car wizards quote:I was browsing some news sites when I noticed an ad for NAPA auto parts on one of the banners. I had been searching for some parts for my WWII jeep restoration project, so I guess a computer decided to show me this advertisement. And my internet searches had resulted in nothing found (a variety of seals and bearings is what I was looking for), and the auto parts stores near me were also unable to help. So, with not much to do on a Saturday afternoon I jumped in my car with a handful of the parts, hoping someone at the NAPA store might be able to help me.
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Apr 9, 2016 23:00
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Classic NAPA experience right there. Also the one in my town gives me a discount if I mention my father in law. I don't know why. He just smiles when I ask him why this works. He is also a grey beard car wizard.
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Apr 10, 2016 04:48
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8ender posted:Also the one in my town gives me a discount if I mention my father in law. I don't know why. He just smiles when I ask him why this works.
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Apr 10, 2016 04:49
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those places are a rare find and should be cherished like a precious gem... I've got a few, and surprisingly one of them is a toyota dealership! Ive never asked for it but I automatically get trade price, and they've never even asked my name. They happily take part numbers ive given them and just order them for me, and they're pretty drat good at getting what I need as soon as possible. The other one is a bearings and maintenance shop- their range is enormous and they have filters and bearings for EVERYTHING in stock- we've got a Lincoln welder/generator unit at work thats powered by a lombardini single pot diesel- everythings from the 70's (it actually starts the thing by running 24V back through the generator to spin the motor over...) This place had the fuel filter, oil filter, brushes and generator bearings in stock, for under $100.
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Apr 10, 2016 06:31
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Seat Safety Switch posted:The price will be paid. The sins of the father are visited on the son. Devil's red R8 coil packs for your Audi, embrace your new master. May your cam follower never fail, even under the heat of the dark lords black blood. Napa Gold filters are just rebranded Wix. ＧＥＴ Ａ ＦＲＥＥ ＮＡＰＡ Ｔ-ＳＨＩＲＴ ＷＩＴＨ Ａ ＰＵＲＣＨＡＳＥ ＯＦ ＳＯＵＬ
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Apr 10, 2016 06:49
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I spoke to my pet metallurgist. Yes, hydrogen embrittlement of hardened/high strength material is an issue with electrolytic de-rusting. Yes, sticking it in your oven for about 4hrs at 200 C is an appropriate way of dealing with it.
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Apr 11, 2016 08:40
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Because of the level of skill required to replace those gears and get everything right in the rear differential I'm going to see a supposedly good mechanic who can do it. He was a recommendation from a friend who has several cars from the time period of this jeep.
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Apr 11, 2016 13:37
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spacetoaster posted:Let's do a comparison.  The electrolysis tank did mess up. I finally figured out I had used too much washing soda in the solution. The part only got about two hours of time in the tank and a quick brush off.
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Apr 11, 2016 18:33
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spacetoaster posted:Because of the level of skill required to replace those gears and get everything right in the rear differential I'm going to see a supposedly good mechanic who can do it. I don't blame you, I'm an experienced mechanic and there are two things I won't touch. Automatic transmissions and rear end gears. There are guys who can do both way faster and correctly for reasonable sums of money.
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Apr 11, 2016 20:02
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The only things I haven't touched on the inside ( ) yet are auto trans, AC compressors, steering racks, and steering gearboxes. Engines, diffs, tcases, mantrans, PS pumps, starters, and alternators are all pretty logical once you dig in... diffs do require a whole special toolset and care/cleanliness/logic though.
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Apr 11, 2016 22:19
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kastein posted:diffs do require a whole special toolset and care/cleanliness/logic though. So do I hire a wizard or a cleric? 
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Apr 11, 2016 23:06
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Depends on your alignment.
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Apr 11, 2016 23:38
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Diffs are definitely intimidating, but if you set aside the time to do it right and have the proper equipment, it's not horrible. You just need the time, the patience, and a decent guide to reference. Did a Chevy 10 bolt a while back. You'd still need to find a rebuild kit for whatever mystery rear end that is, though.
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Apr 12, 2016 01:01
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I'm about 90% sure it's a Dana 25. http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/67298-stock-axle-guide/
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Apr 12, 2016 02:33
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LloydDobler posted:I don't blame you, I'm an experienced mechanic and there are two things I won't touch. Automatic transmissions and rear end gears. There are guys who can do both way faster and correctly for reasonable sums of money. Auto transmissions ain't no thang, as long as they have 3 or less gears. I rebuilt a Ford C4 when I was 20. Still leaking strong 14 years later! (just a dribble)
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Apr 12, 2016 02:43
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Dacheat posted:I'm about 90% sure it's a Dana 25. drat. I know Yukon makes install kits for 27s and newer, but I don't see any for the 25. That chart says they're the same but the 27 has a smaller ring gear. The kit for a 27 may work, but it's like $250.
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Apr 12, 2016 02:56
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Boaz MacPhereson posted:drat. I know Yukon makes install kits for 27s and newer, but I don't see any for the 25. That chart says they're the same but the 27 has a smaller ring gear. The kit for a 27 may work, but it's like $250. I'm well versed in AMC era stuff, pre AMC lesser so, but if im not mistaken that diff's carrier pre-load and backlash adjustments will be similar to setting up a D30 or 44. It's a semi-float setup, I'd reach out to Randy's Ring and Pinion directly and see what they can do to help, there's got to be something out there. (i also know why the D35 is a piece of poo poo, it's not a native bred dana axle, it was known as the AMC 18 until the chrysler buyout then was sold to dana) This book, while it's got some hokey stuff and a touch outdated, will prove very useful, covers '41-86: Look for "The Jeep Bible: 1941-1986 CJ History, Repair, Tune-Up, Build Your Own Jeep - 3rd Edition" It doesn't cover diffs though, covers a lot of other bits however.
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Apr 12, 2016 03:19
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I'm almost certain it's a dana 27, not a dana 25. The 25 is the front axle. If the cover looks like a dana 30 cover (the 25, 27, 28, and 30 all share a cover apparently) then it's probably a dana 27. If the cover looks like a dana 44, it's probably a CJ-2a dana 41 or dana 44 that was swapped in at a later point. You can use markings on the gears, diameters, bolt counts, hypoid offsets, etc to differentiate the 25/27/28/30 from each other and the 41 and 44 from each other. 41-45 MB/GPW jeeps got 25 fronts and 27 rears according to this chart: http://www.kaiserwillys.com/category/willys-jeep-rear-axle-parts-accessories I can't guarantee they're good to buy from, since I've never done so, but they seem like they know what they're talking about and have some stuff available for your jeep. e: I thought the dana 35 was an AMC 15? I could be wrong. And yeah, it's really just a lovely design they inherited from someone else.
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Apr 12, 2016 15:17
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Dacheat posted:I'm about 90% sure it's a Dana 25. kastein posted:I'm almost certain it's a dana 27, not a dana 25. The 25 is the front axle. If the cover looks like a dana 30 cover (the 25, 27, 28, and 30 all share a cover apparently) then it's probably a dana 27. If the cover looks like a dana 44, it's probably a CJ-2a dana 41 or dana 44 that was swapped in at a later point. You can use markings on the gears, diameters, bolt counts, hypoid offsets, etc to differentiate the 25/27/28/30 from each other and the 41 and 44 from each other. Is there anything I can photograph that would help you guys figure it out?
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Apr 12, 2016 16:31
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Kastein is most likely right.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:10
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kastein posted:I'm almost certain it's a dana 27, not a dana 25. The 25 is the front axle. If the cover looks like a dana 30 cover (the 25, 27, 28, and 30 all share a cover apparently) then it's probably a dana 27. If the cover looks like a dana 44, it's probably a CJ-2a dana 41 or dana 44 that was swapped in at a later point. You can use markings on the gears, diameters, bolt counts, hypoid offsets, etc to differentiate the 25/27/28/30 from each other and the 41 and 44 from each other. 15 or 18, i forget which, either way, there's a reason AMC didn't use it.
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Apr 12, 2016 23:12
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Contacted the Jeep wizard today. As soon as I finish collecting all the parts (seals, gaskets, bearings, gears, brakes, etc) I'm dropping it all off at his shop to be put together.
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Apr 15, 2016 14:45
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