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Hey, thread! Just a reminder, #makingcomics on synIRC is still a thing. Come hang out with us in IRC! Here is a guide to using IRC, if you're unfamiliar with it.
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Jul 22, 2015 18:18
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Pick posted:Ha ha, I know, right? I did two proofs for one of my books and there's still a typo in the acknowledgements aww man was that my fault? I think I focused more on the story pages and not so much the acknowledgment, lesson learned 
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Jul 22, 2015 18:18
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. This time around, I hired an independent proofreader to go over it.
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Troposphere posted:aww man was that my fault? I think I focused more on the story pages and not so much the acknowledgment, lesson learned It was a character's name (acknowledging the colorist for the two coloring jobs I hired out), there's no way you could have caught it  .
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Jul 22, 2015 18:26
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Pick posted:It was a character's name (acknowledging the colorist for the two coloring jobs I hired out), there's no way you could have caught it ahh I see! phew my editor soul was dying a little inside haha
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Jul 22, 2015 20:58
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Troposphere posted:ahh I see! phew my editor soul was dying a little inside haha It's ok, I'll still call on you to look the next one over, with the other as a second backup. Typos are impossibly sneaky 
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Jul 22, 2015 21:02
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Scribblehatch posted:Any of you guys ever dealt with precensorship before? This is an easy subject to misinterpret, it's little effort to cast oneself as the victim of culture gone wild. At the heart of it "precensorship" means "don't be a loving idiot". and if you find yourself thinking about or saying words like PC Police, for example, you're standing on the precipice of becoming another loving idiot. Rod Serling uses an episode of Lassie as an example, but you should be very careful about comparing whatever you're making to Lassie. The world is a bigger place than it was when Lassie was airing, and it's vital to keep in mind the breadth of people who might encounter your stories and how the choices you make might impact them. The things you make do not exist in a cultural void, and it's important to keep in mind how they might ripple the waters around them when they make a splash.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:09
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Reiley posted:This is an easy subject to misinterpret, it's little effort to cast oneself as the victim of culture gone wild. At the heart of it "precensorship" means "don't be a loving idiot". and if you find yourself thinking about or saying words like PC Police, for example, you're standing on the precipice of becoming another loving idiot. I read an interesting opinion about this sort of thing as a response to the recent Jerry Seinfeld PC Police thing that applies to all entertainment I think. The gist of it was that it's not the audience's responsibility to like/get/laugh at/be entertained by/understand your art/comedy/story/whatever, it's your job as an artist/comedian/author to get the audience there, and if you do the legwork to understand your audience and take them along on the journey with you and build context, you can do whatever you want but you have to work for it and make it worth their time and be willing to learn and grow. There are no absolutes in entertainment or storytelling that work 100% of the time for everyone, it's your job as a creator to balance between "purity" of intent (whatever that means) and understanding the audience that you're trying to reach with your work.
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Jul 22, 2015 21:35
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Scribblehatch posted:Any of you guys ever dealt with precensorship before? I think knowledge and awareness of the subject, and more importantly: a confident and deliberate yet careful execution, is the line between a good call and a bad one. Years ago when I was still an edgy teenager I was working on what would become a long term project, and I had the idea that at some point this female character would get assaulted and murdered. Like, fire-extinguisher-in-the-face Irreversible (2002) stuff and super graphic. And I thought, "Yep, that's shocking. My artistic vision is maximum." But it was poo poo. It took me a number of months to realise, but it was undeveloped, there was no reason for it, it contributed nothing to the rest of it, it was thematically out of left field, and I have literally nothing interesting or relevant to add or say about it beyond "it's grim, ugly and horrible". That scene is pretty much gone or reworked into something that's still shocking but in a very different way that won't rile people the same way. That's not to say I could never do something like the original example, but at the time I wasn't equipped to tackle it with the skill, seriousness, or tact it deserved. Genuine and serious real world issues that touch or befall actual people need a level of thorough thought and consideration and a delicate hand to not gently caress it up and give it the respect it deserves. If one lacks the delicacy or respect for the subject, it shouldn't be done. But that said, everyone is different. I swear often and don't have a problem with bad language (or nudity for that matter but because I live with other people I don't want them to walk in from behind and get the wrong idea) and would include it in most things, but it is something that bothers some and there is a desire to scale it back and allocate just one gently caress and three shits or so if it's something I'm intending to be consumed by a more mainstream audience. If not, gently caress it and just do it. Rather than thinking of it as censoring an artistic vision, think of it as a problem like any other in your story that needs to be resolved, because there is probably a happier medium in between. Like choosing how violent and how much blood should be seen in fights: do you go hyper gory blood everywhere and have close-ups of bone piercing skin, do you "censor it by looking away and (perhaps accidentally?) fetishize the violence like Hitchcock or the ear scene in Reservoir Dogs, no blood at all like Ninja Turtles or any American cartoon, or just allow blood and show it matter of factly without drawing attention to it or hiding it. The right amount of thought, and a clear idea of intent.
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Jul 22, 2015 22:07
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himajinga posted:I read an interesting opinion about this sort of thing as a response to the recent Jerry Seinfeld PC Police thing that applies to all entertainment I think. The gist of it was that it's not the audience's responsibility to like/get/laugh at/be entertained by/understand your art/comedy/story/whatever, it's your job as an artist/comedian/author to get the audience there, and if you do the legwork to understand your audience and take them along on the journey with you and build context, you can do whatever you want but you have to work for it and make it worth their time and be willing to learn and grow. There are no absolutes in entertainment or storytelling that work 100% of the time for everyone, it's your job as a creator to balance between "purity" of intent (whatever that means) and understanding the audience that you're trying to reach with your work. People don't understand that comedy (or in the case we were originally discussing, writing in general) takes time, practice, honing. In other words, work. Like, no one is going to stop you from sitting down and just ~expressing yourself, free of restrictions and limits~ but that might not actually be all that valuable depending on what it is you're doing. To take Seinfeld's field as an example, stand up comedians sure as hell aren't doing the same routines, same jokes, same timing as they were when they started out (at least nobody you're going to want to pay to go listen to, anyway). One learns the art of one's craft and how to use that to advantage, rather than blaming the audience of the medium for not stepping up to grasp the masterpiece. The latter just makes you look like a petulant teenager. To contribute more on topic, I think pre-censorship can in some ways be a positive creative force. There are topics I want to address in my comic that I am being very slow about introducing until I feel I've researched them enough to present them respectfully. I know that even with all the efforts I plan to put in, there may still be people who react negatively to my representation or who are offended by it, and who may swear off reading anything by me entirely. That's okay, that's their prerogative, it's their right to decide what they enjoy reading and what makes them too uncomfortable to enjoy. It's my job to make content that may appeal to them (and the greater audience at large), not to whine about people being too sensitive or lamenting my misunderstood creative genius. If it weren't for that worry about people reacting really badly to my writing, I might have played fast and loose with such topics without hesitation, without bothering to give them the amount of forethought and care that they deserve. My writing would be worse for it. That being said, it is difficult to compare my situation with that of Rod Serling or anyone whose work is in some part produced through others with a financial incentive. My precensorship is almost entirely internal, coming from me anticipating what I have to lose as a writer for offending, misrepresenting, or alienating people. I am not in a position where I have to worry about my lifeline to publication either altering my message or silencing it entirely based on something that to me seems shortsighted or stupid like Serling's Lassie example. I imagine others here who have worked for actual publishers (or even commissions) have a different experience and view. sweeperbravo fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 22:12
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Pick posted:It's ok, I'll still call on you to look the next one over, with the other as a second backup. Typos are impossibly sneaky next time I'll write all the names on post its and stick them on my monitor  edit: wouldn't pre-censorship just be editing? how do you even censor yourself? Troposphere fucked around with this message at 23:03 on Jul 22, 2015 |
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Jul 22, 2015 22:40
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scribblehatch is this about people not liking you drawing anime titties
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Jul 22, 2015 23:06
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The only pre-censorship I've had is when I asked my girlfriend if I could draw her topless because we'd ridden in a Naked Bike Ride event together and she basically told me only from the shoulders up. We don't experience censorship in the way Rod Serling did, pre or otherwise. You have Netflix making shows by popular directors with trans characters who throw wet, used strap-ons on the floor. The most critically acclaimed show of the last decade was about a man making meth. Rod wouldn't recognize modern TV, but he'd love the poo poo out of it. Comics have even less "censorship" possible. Basically none, really. If you are writing lovely stories that handle sensitive material poorly and someone calls you on it, that's not censorship. This is why when comedians make terrible, unfunny rape jokes and get told that they're being assholes, it's a case of them being assholes, not of anyone "censoring" them. Maybe I'm just projecting, but I don't see how this is really even a thing if you're in America, on the Internet.
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Jul 23, 2015 02:50
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If you hesitate creating something because you're afraid it'll cause drama for yourself then congratulations, you're one step towards self awareness and should probably explore that hesitation further! Ron Gilbert shares a related story. There's nothing wrong with changing something after a bit of reflection, it might actually make the work better.
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Jul 23, 2015 04:19
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yeah scribblehatch you're going to have to clarify a little bit more about what you mean because it just sounds like you're being bitter about anime tiddies again
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Jul 23, 2015 08:57
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I have trouble with pre-censorship too. From the moment I sit down and my pen touches the tablet, I'm thinking, "Is this decent? Does this concept deserve to be expressed?" As the nib traces the supple curves of my character's fine and fruitful body and my erection quietly swells I wonder, "Am I contributing to the plot with this intense and unapologetic nudity? How does this character's bulging scrotum define his personality? Are these rosy nipples a metaphor for something?" Is this art? Is this a cultural event? Every comic page is an education, a revelation, a red-hot orgasm. How can I deliver yet more nudity into a world already saturated with the wonders of the human figure? Everywhere I turn, another sculpted buttock vies for my attention. Bosoms wobble and pulse, their lines gilded by sunlight. Rigid cocks bristle in the shadows. I reach under the desk and stroke myself thoughtfully as I ponder the dilemma: should I make my character wear clothes or not? Would this scene be better if he were naked? Would the emotional thrust be increased if she was being railed with multiple monstrous vibrators? Will I be slandered all over the internet for offering a tantalising glimpse of exquisitely groomed pubic hair? The drawing unfolds before me and in my agony I erupt like a Krakatoa of cum. There they are! The breasts! My anguish, my ecstacy, my artistic vision, all are unveiled at last. My soul is bared online for all to see, to speculate over, to analyse both intellectually, with their minds, and sexually, with their hands and cocks. I post a link to the update on my Facebook and my mother says it's "interesting."
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Jul 23, 2015 13:11
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Avshalom posted:I have trouble with pre-censorship too. From the moment I sit down and my pen touches the tablet, I'm thinking, "Is this decent? Does this concept deserve to be expressed?" As the nib traces the supple curves of my character's fine and fruitful body and my erection quietly swells I wonder, "Am I contributing to the plot with this intense and unapologetic nudity? How does this character's bulging scrotum define his personality? Are these rosy nipples a metaphor for something?" Is this art? Is this a cultural event? Every comic page is an education, a revelation, a red-hot orgasm. How can I deliver yet more nudity into a world already saturated with the wonders of the human figure? Everywhere I turn, another sculpted buttock vies for my attention. Bosoms wobble and pulse, their lines gilded by sunlight. Rigid cocks bristle in the shadows. I reach under the desk and stroke myself thoughtfully as I ponder the dilemma: should I make my character wear clothes or not? Would this scene be better if he were naked? Would the emotional thrust be increased if she was being railed with multiple monstrous vibrators? Will I be slandered all over the internet for offering a tantalising glimpse of exquisitely groomed pubic hair? The drawing unfolds before me and in my agony I erupt like a Krakatoa of cum. There they are! The breasts! My anguish, my ecstacy, my artistic vision, all are unveiled at last. My soul is bared online for all to see, to speculate over, to analyse both intellectually, with their minds, and sexually, with their hands and cocks. I post a link to the update on my Facebook and my mother says it's "interesting."
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Jul 23, 2015 13:18
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I am going to embroider that post on a pillow.
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Jul 23, 2015 13:19
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Avshalom posted:I have trouble with pre-censorship too. From the moment I sit down and my pen touches the tablet, I'm thinking, "Is this decent? Does this concept deserve to be expressed?" As the nib traces the supple curves of my character's fine and fruitful body and my erection quietly swells I wonder, "Am I contributing to the plot with this intense and unapologetic nudity? How does this character's bulging scrotum define his personality? Are these rosy nipples a metaphor for something?" Is this art? Is this a cultural event? Every comic page is an education, a revelation, a red-hot orgasm. How can I deliver yet more nudity into a world already saturated with the wonders of the human figure? Everywhere I turn, another sculpted buttock vies for my attention. Bosoms wobble and pulse, their lines gilded by sunlight. Rigid cocks bristle in the shadows. I reach under the desk and stroke myself thoughtfully as I ponder the dilemma: should I make my character wear clothes or not? Would this scene be better if he were naked? Would the emotional thrust be increased if she was being railed with multiple monstrous vibrators? Will I be slandered all over the internet for offering a tantalising glimpse of exquisitely groomed pubic hair? The drawing unfolds before me and in my agony I erupt like a Krakatoa of cum. There they are! The breasts! My anguish, my ecstacy, my artistic vision, all are unveiled at last. My soul is bared online for all to see, to speculate over, to analyse both intellectually, with their minds, and sexually, with their hands and cocks. I post a link to the update on my Facebook and my mother says it's "interesting." same
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Jul 23, 2015 17:05
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I knew someone who used to get mad at feminists for not liking his comics about mind-controlling women to grow giant boobs that would snap off their bodies and eat each other. Had these feminists ever seen his comic? No, not at all, he didn't show them to any feminists, he just knew how they'd react and that made him SUCH a victim of the PC police.  ... In case you were wondering why I got to read it and not any of those other nasty feminists, yes, it's (holy crap, Avshalom)
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Jul 23, 2015 20:11
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In terms of independent webcomics people are often writing for themselves first, but taking into consideration one's audience's perspective and feelings is like, your one job as a person with a readership. A lot of times in comic discussions I'll see young writers getting caught off-guard when they're chewed out for implementing sexual assault, when their work already contained all kinds of violence and murders. What they're often not thinking of is that while ripping open a dude's torso and pooping inside one of his exposed lungs is a morally and legally more severe crime, there are not vary many survivors of that reading your comic. Nor are there tons of people who may have been close to a victim, for that matter. In terms of precensorship affecting myself, I first started posting comics in a community geared towards all-ages, and since I was pretty young myself, I never even considered anyone finding what I posted objectionable. I think I've been consequentially overthinking how to tackle higher stakes and older, more realistic characters. I recently updated an outline to find that under the magic rules section, I had left notes about when I should or should not swear in the script. Which, I'd like to think was a play of the dual meanings of "curse" but I can't remember what I was thinking six days ago, let alone six months.
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Jul 23, 2015 22:34
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GreatJob posted:I knew someone who used to get mad at feminists for not liking his comics about mind-controlling women to grow giant boobs that would snap off their bodies and eat each other. Had these feminists ever seen his comic? No, not at all, he didn't show them to any feminists, he just knew how they'd react and that made him SUCH a victim of the PC police. This is my biggest pet peeve. I work with a guy whose like "I really want to make a Muslim joke but I just know someone is going to get in my face." No man, go ahead. Nobody actually cares about you or your lovely jokes and I'll still rest easy at night. Some people get mad thinking someone is going to get mad at them. There's this crazy scenario playing out in their head where they say something profound and the masses descend.
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Jul 23, 2015 23:55
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yeah chances are people aren't going to give a poo poo unless you're a big name, and if that's the case then you will get called out and either ignore it or hopefully learn something from it also if you're so dead set on a character being nude all the time why not just go into a genre where it makes sense, like porn comics? I honestly don't understand...no one is stopping you, follow your dreams Troposphere fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 00:40
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the main character in The Meek is nude and no one really seems to care about that, what is it about your own comic that would make it in poor taste? Makes you think edit: it's because you keep bringing it up and making it a weird thing that's why
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Jul 24, 2015 01:45
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I don't really know if it works much in the meek anyways (or if anything works much in the meek since it's in apparent permanent limbo) but Angora is never really hyper sexualized or male-gazey, her genitals are usually covered by framing tricks or when she starts wearing pants and her nipples aren't super detailed. it's really all about taste levels imo
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Jul 24, 2015 01:58
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FlyinPingu posted:edit: it's because you keep bringing it up and making it a weird thing that's why a friend IRL had told me about The Meek and the nutidy wasn't even something I knew about until I was looking at a poster she had and was like "Wait is the girl not wearing clothes" and she was like "oh yeah that's a thing in the comic." I actually don't even remember if I knew the character was a girl based on the poster so there's also that. It wasn't "NAKED CHICK, AWW DUDE SO COOL" it was "unclothed human for narrative purpose."
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Jul 24, 2015 02:42
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FlyinPingu posted:edit: it's because you keep bringing it up and making it a weird thing that's why I said 10 words. And the responses like Rethy's were what I was interested in. Scribblehatch fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 16:38
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Censorship is a fairly overdramatic term in the current environment and it's hard to imagine it might be warranted unless you are a US citizen drawing recruitment pamphlets for ISIS or something.
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Jul 24, 2015 17:22
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People are going to be offended if they are blindsided by things like nudity. Rightfully so, even if they indulge in it elsewhere. It's a matter of setting, similar to the CC rules regarding pornography vs nudes. I think the easiest rule to follow is maintain the same level of discretion that you start with. The mistake would be establishing one setting and gaining a followership, then taking the same group of people next door to the strip club, even if it's only for a few minutes. If you have an adult storyline and want to indulge willing viewers in pornography, it's time for a separate episode hosted in a pornographic setting. At the least, an NSFW disclaimer. It is probably a smart move to also keep that sequence independent of the story. Another nuance I'm surprised people fail to grasp is the artist's choice to include things in the frame. The difference between pornography and mainstream for a sex scene is training the camera on the actors' faces versus close-up shots of cock and balls. It's the same act, and the difference is how you convey it and the level of detail. I recall a tip from the book How to Draw Manga that explained a girl in panties becomes obscene when you draw too much detail into the outlines of the labia. That's a pretty good example of how you can go from cute to lewd in the same drawing, very quickly. An artist should have a sense of what they deliver and what boundaries their readers expect them to maintain. If you're lucky, you might get readers who are invested enough to become upset about things happening to a character. Those types might make a case against something like nudity instead of admitting their attachment to their waifu. But if you were clear about the graphic nature of your artwork from the beginning, and especially if the website is completely appropriate to it, your consistency will support itself. As for the subject matter I don't think anything should be off-limits. Just be consistent. This vlog reminded me of this discussion. A breakdown of Louis CK's child molester joke on SNL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOO1AX7_jXw Anagram of GINGER fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 17:55
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I had a panel in Reliquary that involved a bare titty because there's an ethnic group in that world that don't do shirts, and I spent a lot of time working on it worrying about reactions, because all instances before had been covered with various visual elements, but I couldn't manage that in this one panel, and OH MY GOD SOMEONE IS GOING TO GET MAD ABOUT THE TITTY. Then I published the page and literally nobody said anything. Since then, I have had occasional titty and still nobody gives a poo poo. It's comics on the internet. The likelihood of anyone ever giving a poo poo is SUPER low unless you've already got some measure of fame.
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Jul 24, 2015 18:02
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Censorship and precensorship could indeed be too specific. I didn't mean to make it literally about Lassie's puppies. The analogy is to be adjusted for inflation. I was thinking about the aspect of 'kneejerk' itself. The whole Green Eggs and Ham thing. Or even worse.. 'Simpsons did it' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDuMp2kDxos Just that weird malaise that does a lot of damage in pre-production. Back to the Future, at one point, was in this limbo where Disney found the concept too risque to produce, and other studios found it not risque enough to produce! On the internet, no one is stopping you, but the idea of being that limbo-platypus webcomic is still frightening. These are the stories I care to hear about because I have a lot of friends who are still in that boat. Scribblehatch fucked around with this message at 20:19 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 19:45
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What does the Lassie example involve? Do you mean Lassie's death?
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Jul 24, 2015 21:00
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Scribblehatch posted:Censorship and precensorship could indeed be too specific. I didn't mean to make it literally about Lassie's puppies. The analogy is to be adjusted for inflation. I was thinking about the aspect of 'kneejerk' itself. what are you even talking about you haven't said what content is making people have a knee jerk reaction and maybe we could understand what you're saying if you did? are your friends scared because they have boobies in their comics, or violence, or what? you're being super vague and it's just confusing...
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Jul 24, 2015 21:08
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It would be helpful to post exactly what the sort of issues or content you're worried about actually are. Otherwise just use common sense, or barring that just don't give a gently caress because it's comics on the internet. People are assuming it's the titty thing again because you're not being specific enough. Delta Echo posted:What does the Lassie example involve? Do you mean Lassie's death? The episode where Lassie has puppies and one crazy fan overreacted to the "obscenity," from the Rod Serling interview clip he posted.
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Jul 24, 2015 21:11
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Scribblehatch posted:Censorship and precensorship could indeed be too specific. I didn't mean to make it literally about Lassie's puppies. The analogy is to be adjusted for inflation. I was thinking about the aspect of 'kneejerk' itself. These just kind of sound like excuses to not make a webcomic. Webcomics aren't produced by giant studios worried primarily about their ROI, or 1950s Television networks wanting to sell you soap. If your idea and story has integrity, you should be able to stand by it. If you're trying to capture some zeitgeist, or if your idea is half-baked...yeah people are going to point that out. Often though, people compare things they like to other things they like...it's usually a complement. The same goes for controversial ideas..like people stated above, do the legwork, and tackle it responsibly, and you'll have no problem standing by it. If we mess up, we can learn and grow from it. If the phantom peanut gallery in your mind is winning out, you might need to re-evaluate what you're doing. Those ghost-brain trolls could actually be trying to help.
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Jul 24, 2015 21:50
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Maybe instead of worrying about making things you could make things.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:22
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Geekboy posted:Maybe instead of worrying about making things you could make things.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:24
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T.G. Xarbala posted:It would be helpful to post exactly what the sort of issues or content you're worried about actually are. Otherwise just use common sense, or barring that just don't give a gently caress because it's comics on the internet. Well, Lassie was always played by a boy so....
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Jul 25, 2015 02:04
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Geekboy posted:Maybe instead of worrying about making things you could make things. Yeah, if people actually get that mad about the art that you make, maybe those people aren't worth your time.
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Jul 25, 2015 16:43
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I couldn't agree more.
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Jul 25, 2015 17:51
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I'm glad someone finally gave you the response you were fishing for.
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Jul 26, 2015 02:11
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