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Yeah, but remember, the ones that get this treatment are the ones which all other attempts at reform have failed. "Please stop murdering people" "No" "Ok then, we feel killing, brainwashing, or permanently incarcerating you is wrong, so we're gonna exile you from our lands. In order to reduce the risk you stand to others, we are going visibly mark you as a hazardous person." Not a perfect solution, but what else are they supposed to do to someone who refuses to reform?
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Jun 26, 2015 20:08
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Lemniscate Blue posted:As has been pointed out, there are issues with the peace torc and the Calm arcanum that make it not the most well thought out solution, and I hope the new authors have a better answer. But to ignore it completely would just have been weird. I guess my question is: what's a better answer? I mean, this is a dilemma that human societies have been chewing on since the dawn of civilization. I'm honestly curious how you would prefer an idealistic game such as Blue Rose to play "what do we do with murderers?"
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Jun 26, 2015 20:08
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It is also totally okay for it to be a non-perfect solution with some nasty implications that could possibly be "solved", because as pointed out Blue Rose isn't supposed to present a utopian state, because there would be nothing for the PCs to do. There's plenty of gray area between the fascistic deer police and a literally perfect society.
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Jun 26, 2015 20:18
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Yeah, but remember, the ones that get this treatment are the ones which all other attempts at reform have failed. "Please stop murdering people" "No" "Ok then, we feel killing, brainwashing, or permanently incarcerating you is wrong, so we're gonna exile you from our lands. In order to reduce the risk you stand to others, we are going visibly mark you as a hazardous person." I mean, not that it doesn't make for interesting story hooks, having a flaw in your fictional society. My Lovely Horse fucked around with this message at 08:42 on Jun 27, 2015 |
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Jun 26, 2015 20:21
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Zurui posted:I guess my question is: what's a better answer? I mean, this is a dilemma that human societies have been chewing on since the dawn of civilization. I'm honestly curious how you would prefer an idealistic game such as Blue Rose to play "what do we do with murderers?" The answer to this is always going to come down to handwavium, but since this is fantasy magic can do that. Early in this discussion I mentioned slap-drones from Iain M. Banks' Culture series. They're assigned to follow the sentenced person around and don't interfere until and unless they take an action that will physically harm another person. Then they prevent that harm, and go back to hover mode. In a magical setting, a peace torc could operate along the same principles. Think, feel, say, do whatever you want until your actions are about to cause someone else physical harm, then you just can't do that. Try to slug someone in the jaw, your hand magically moves back to your side instead. The Calm arcana already differentiates self-defense, so allow for that, but otherwise you just aren't allowed to hurt people. So that's the solution in a magical utopia. The question then becomes is this the setting the writers want to portray? I'm pretty persuaded by the argument that it's not a miraculous utopia, it's just a good kingdom that uses the tools it possesses as best it knows how to do as well as it knows how to do. So there might not be a perfect solution, and they have to decide what to do based on priorities. If someone refuses offered rehabilitation, what would be worse, involuntary personality alteration or a peace torc? Execution, imprisonment, or exile? Personally I agree that the Calm arcana does have troubling implications, and maybe a humane imprisonment would be something I would be more comfortable with. But maybe Aldean society thinks that permanent imprisonment is worse?
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Jun 26, 2015 20:22
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My Lovely Horse posted:I mean, there are two things bound to happen in the neighboring kingdoms: people start also killing the exiles on sight because better safe than sorry, or underground industries start developing where back alley mage doctors remove exiles' collars and tattoos, after which they're free to continue their ways. Either way, it's shifting the responsibility for your citizens, irredeemably antisocial or not, on to other kingdoms. You're declaring those irredeemable offenders vogelfrei, and that seems to go strongly against the general progressive society vibes the rest of the description invokes. I agree, its not a great solution. But I honestly don't have a better answer to "Well what do you do with the unrepentant killer?" Especially when the society in question has already decided execution, permanent incarceration, and forcible reform via mental reprogramming are unacceptable solutions. Maybe they should Exile them to some isolated place far from others (Fantasy Australia)? I dunno! Anyways, I'm all philosophized out from playing The Talos Principle and discussing it with a friend, so I'd personally rather stick to RPGs that are less cerebral. 
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Jun 26, 2015 20:31
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My Lovely Horse posted:I mean, there are two things bound to happen in the neighboring kingdoms: people start also killing the exiles on sight because better safe than sorry, or underground industries start developing where back alley mage doctors remove exiles' collars and tattoos, after which they're free to continue their ways. Either way, it's shifting the responsibility for your citizens, irredeemably antisocial or not, on to other kingdoms. You're declaring those irredeemable offenders vogelfrei, and that seems to go strongly against the general progressive society vibes the rest of the description invokes. It doesn't seem any worse than incarceration to me, but any method, when pertaining to law and justice, are going to have downsides to it, especially when you're dealing with the unrepentant. Personally, it'd give me joy if we had a peace torc put on a serial murderer like the Zodiac Killer.
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Jun 26, 2015 20:38
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Generally it seems like a workable solution to just come out and say "this is ethically troublesome!" This is what Chuubo does with the man-eating ogres who turn into humans if you befriend them. Solving the problem of "ogres eat people, but turning people into a different species because I don't approve of their behavior is also wrong" is explicitly left as an exercise of the reader.
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Jun 26, 2015 21:06
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idek what you nerds are grousing about a whimsical fascist deer kingdom sounds fuckin baller
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Jun 27, 2015 01:11
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But only if I'm on the throne, right?
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Jun 27, 2015 01:12
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are you a deer,
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Jun 27, 2015 01:13
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I'm surprised more people in here aren't mad that The New Blue Rose is using AGE.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:13
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Lightning Lord posted:I'm surprised more people in here aren't mad that The New Blue Rose is using AGE.  )the other part is the cost 
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Jun 27, 2015 01:16
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AGE is the Dragon Age RPG's engine? I don't recall anyone saying anything bad about it, but it's very generic and not really a great representation of its source material. (The part that gets me? Stats seem to be randomly rolled, which is something that Dragon Age the game didn't do.)
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Jun 27, 2015 01:21
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Lightning Lord posted:I'm surprised more people in here aren't mad that The New Blue Rose is using AGE. I might be grogging hard if I knew anything about AGE or if d20 wasn't inherently fuckawful. At $100k there's a FATE hack for it so here's hoping.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:21
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Ningyou posted:idek what you nerds are grousing about a whimsical fascist deer kingdom sounds fuckin baller Dateline Disneyland: Bambi overthrows magic kingdom, establishes junta, prepares to invade Gor. Okay, that actually sounds pretty cool.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:21
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It's pretty much why I'm not interested to a money-giving level, to be frank. It reminds me of Spears of Dawn for my reaction of "Can I get the setting without the game?"
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Jun 27, 2015 01:22
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Alien Rope Burn posted:It's pretty much why I'm not interested to a money-giving level, to be frank. It reminds me of Spears of Dawn for my reaction of "Can I get the setting without the game?" I thought that was every RPG. Davin Valkri posted:Dateline Disneyland: Bambi overthrows magic kingdom, establishes junta, prepares to invade Gor. We did establish I'd be the vanguard of any Liberation of Gor, so I guess this means I am a deer?
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Jun 27, 2015 01:26
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I've played AGE, I pretty much used it for the fanmade Mystara supplement. It's a pretty decent D&D alike, and it has stuff for every class to do. Random rolling is an option, there are others in the book. If it doesn't model Dragon Age accurately, well... That isn't wonderful, but I'm not sure I give a poo poo, because while I enjoy the games their world isn't one I'm particularly interested in playing in, so I'm looking forward to the generic version Green Ronin are putting out. Of course, as my posting in the gated off playpen that is the old school thread can attest, I like D&D.Queen Fiona posted:We did establish I'd be the vanguard of any Liberation of Gor, so I guess this means I am a deer? I'm not sure Gor can be liberated, you might need to nuke it.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:28
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Ahhh, truly the Americans, believing themselves to be morally superior than other cultures, wishing to attack and destroy those who offend their noble sensibilities and be greeted as liberators.
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Jun 27, 2015 01:32
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Ahhh, truly the Americans, believing themselves to be morally superior than other cultures, wishing to attack and destroy those who offend their noble sensibilities and be greeted as liberators. I guess you guys got over that early on
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Jun 27, 2015 01:34
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Lightning Lord posted:I've played AGE, I pretty much used it for the fanmade Mystara supplement. It's a pretty decent D&D alike, and it has stuff for every class to do. Random rolling is an option, there are others in the book. If it doesn't model Dragon Age accurately, well... That isn't wonderful, but I'm not sure I give a poo poo, because while I enjoy the games their world isn't one I'm particularly interested in playing in, so I'm looking forward to the generic version Green Ronin are putting out. Of course, as my posting in the gated off playpen that is the old school thread can attest, I like D&D. It's something of a seperate thing from a direct criticism of the mechanics, but if you're going to adapt a work, that should open you up to criticism regarding it. As I recall, mind, I don't think there are any video game to tabletop adaptations that aren't awful in some way, unless you scour Japanese TRPGs or something. Probably the best one I've seen is FFd6, and even that's not exactly amazing. (Wasn't there a big boom of those with d20 - Diablo and Warcraft and stuff, namely?) quote:I'm not sure Gor can be liberated, you might need to nuke it. What, and leave all the innocent women who had the misfortune to be born in such a twisted world to die? Never. 
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Jun 27, 2015 01:38
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Lightning Lord posted:I'm surprised more people in here aren't mad that The New Blue Rose is using AGE. It doesn't seem terribly offensive? Like, the worst I hear about AGE is that it's a poor fit for Dragon Age, but it works as a generic fantasy thing. I like stunt rules. :x
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Jun 27, 2015 01:39
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Queen Fiona posted:We did establish I'd be the vanguard of any Liberation of Gor, so I guess this means I am a deer? A very dear deer, I'm sure  But it could just mean that your CinC is a deer. I mean, your XO is a mouse, so...
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Jun 27, 2015 01:59
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AGE's biggest crime is being exceedingly boring. It's Yet Another Generic Fantasy System. It has close to nothing new and nothing really noteworthy. I don't think it's even possible to be mad about AGE - that would require a level of passion AGE just doesn't inspire.
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Jun 27, 2015 02:17
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TheLovablePlutonis posted:Ahhh, truly the Americans, believing themselves to be morally superior than other cultures, wishing to attack and destroy those who offend their noble sensibilities and be greeted as liberators. I think you'll find that wanting to invade Cimmeria and Carcosa and Gor and all those other "sword and sorcery" worlds with picked (bishie) pilots and (bishie) battalions of soldiers under (lesbian) commanders, is a very understandable reaction, when those fantasy worlds have the wrong RAM.
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Jun 27, 2015 02:19
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The Blue Rose game I played on here a billion years ago was really fun and had a talking horse in it, so if there are still talking horses in the new one I think I'll pick up the PDF at some point.
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Jun 27, 2015 02:28
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Queen Fiona posted:I thought that was every RPG. The exceptions are HōL, Munchkin d20, and Deluxe Revised Recon.
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Jun 27, 2015 03:30
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Alien Rope Burn posted:The exceptions are HōL, Munchkin d20, and Deluxe Revised Recon.
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Jun 27, 2015 03:57
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You know what, I'm happy that I have absolutely no knowledge of Blue Rose, not because it sounds like a bad game but because it means the constant, apparently random, references everyone makes to "magic deer" makes this whole conversation wonderfully surreal.
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Jun 27, 2015 05:01
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oriongates posted:You know what, I'm happy that I have absolutely no knowledge of Blue Rose, not because it sounds like a bad game but because it means the constant, apparently random, references everyone makes to "magic deer" makes this whole conversation wonderfully surreal. I will always remember the RPGPundit for coining the term "venisonocracy."
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Jun 27, 2015 05:38
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Ningyou posted:Speaking of, why isn't there a HoL 20th Anniversary Prestige Edition How do you improve on HōL, though? (A stretch goal to add one more page, probably, and that's all.)
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Jun 27, 2015 05:45
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Queen Fiona posted:AGE is the Dragon Age RPG's engine? I don't recall anyone saying anything bad about it, but it's very generic and not really a great representation of its source material. The stat spread isn't nearly as bad as "3d6-in-order": 3 = -2 4 to 5 = -1 6 to 8 = 0 9 to 11 = +1 12 to 14 = +2 15 to 17 = +3 18 = +4 And you get one free swap And you get to bump up any stat by 1 every time you level up And your background can give you another stat increase ProfessorCirno posted:AGE's biggest crime is being exceedingly boring. It's Yet Another Generic Fantasy System. It has close to nothing new and nothing really noteworthy. I don't think it's even possible to be mad about AGE - that would require a level of passion AGE just doesn't inspire. The spell list and system and stunts are pretty much the anti-D&D
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Jun 27, 2015 06:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:The spell list and system and stunts are pretty much the anti-D&D Yes, every generic fantasy RPG has that one thing to separate them from D&D. I do remember being very unimpressed by the stunts though; it was something about never actually being able to be good at them, or something like that.
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Jun 27, 2015 07:02
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oriongates posted:You know what, I'm happy that I have absolutely no knowledge of Blue Rose, not because it sounds like a bad game but because it means the constant, apparently random, references everyone makes to "magic deer" makes this whole conversation wonderfully surreal.
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Jun 27, 2015 08:03
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ProfessorCirno posted:Yes, every generic fantasy RPG has that one thing to separate them from D&D. The stunts are just this bland laundry list of " you can move again" or "you can make two attacks." I feel like something that appears as rarely as a stunt die roll should give a player more improvisational ability. I will say that Blue Rose is the first setting for this game I find appealing. DA is just "Game of Thrones with Elves.", and Titansgrave is the encyclopedia definition of "fantasy heartbreaker." (Seriously disappointed by Titansgrave; the hype talked about a Thundarr-the-Barbarian influenced post-apocalypse setting, instead we got another generic elves-and-orcs setting with some steampunk nonsense slapped on, along with a pile of overpainted Photoshop art that belongs on the Magic: the Gathering factory floor.) WESLEY!!! 
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Jun 27, 2015 08:20
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I think calling DA "Game of Thrones with Elves" is still too charitable Dragon Age is exactly as generic as the tabletop rpg adaptation thereof (Actually the TRPG is slightly less generic than the video game just because it doesn't come with the one-size-fits-all bioware plot)
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Jun 27, 2015 08:39
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personally I'm excited for Blue Rose as it's one of my favorite original settings to have emerged out of the D20 boom along with Dragonmech, Dinosaur Planet: Broncosaurus Rex, and X-Crawl(this last one more relating to the basic idea behind it than the actual execution, as that was kinda weak from what I recall)
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Jun 27, 2015 08:49
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Blue Rose's magic deer government actually kind of resembles The Twelve Kingdoms
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Jun 27, 2015 08:56
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Tulpa posted:Dragon Age is exactly as generic as the tabletop rpg adaptation thereof (Actually the TRPG is slightly less generic than the video game just because it doesn't come with the one-size-fits-all bioware plot) The later games end up moving away from the darkspawn plot and into actually interesting territory overall, capitalizing on smaller hints from the DA plot. I mean, your mileage may vary on that (and the quality of the follow-ups in question), and it's still all Fantasy Europe poo poo, but they've certainly tried to mix things up a bit over time. I don't think Dragon Age Origins was ever intended to be particularly original, mind. (gently caress, Thedas was a placeholder name in the forums, for The Dragon Age Setting, that inexplicably stuck.) It still ends up being a rather well-done execution overall, and the game is notable for including one of the few instances of capital-d Dwarves as a thing I actually enjoy in some manner, Oghren aside. It's not necessarily the most original thing, but it did what it did well enough and it feels a bit like hating the fish for swimming, y'know? drrockso20 posted:personally I'm excited for Blue Rose as it's one of my favorite original settings to have emerged out of the D20 boom along with Dragonmech, Dinosaur Planet: Broncosaurus Rex, and X-Crawl(this last one more relating to the basic idea behind it than the actual execution, as that was kinda weak from what I recall) I read the F&F of X-Crawl way back when. It's...weird. It's got some pretty good concepts to it, but it sabotages itself in very White Wolf-y ways, and being a d20 system manages to ruin all the mechanics it has that might be interesting through, well, using d20 resolution systems. It's another textbook case of not examining whether your concepts fit your mechanics. (Reminds me a bit of someone trying to make a DXHR-like social combat system - in and of itself a really awesome concept someone should do - who was really insistent it had to be Pathfinder for some reason. Unsurprisingly, this comes up with d20-based systems a lot! she says, shamefully hiding her copy of d20 Modern under the bed) My knowledge of Blue Rose is essentially zero, so I'm not really getting the deer references myself. Doesn't really seem like my thing, though.
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Jun 27, 2015 09:12
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