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I was riding around on my motorcycle yesterday morning and came upon a wreck. Off the side of the road in a field was an SUV in flames. It was resting on it's passenger side. Someone had stopped just before me and there were two people watching it burn. I had assumed wrongly that one of those people was the driver of the SUV. Nope. The driver was trapped. Flames were engulfing the entire bottom of the SUV and flaring up. As soon as I had figured out that there was someone trapped one of the people who stopped and myself tried to get close but the heat was too great even in full motorcycle gear. Windows started exploding. Sounded exactly like cannon fire. I had to back away and wait for responders. Flames got higher and higher. This next part is rough. I started hearing her scream help over and over. I am guessing the wreck knocked her out, and the smoke/flames woke her up. All I could do was stand there and listen. I stood there and listened to someone burning alive and screaming. She screamed help for what seemed like hours, but was likely only a minute or two before it stopped. A DOT truck came, and thankfully they had extinguishers, but by then the flames were too high for them to do much good. Next came a deputy, ambulance, and firetruck. Abysmally slow response time. It was too late. She was gone. I found the news article today. 25 year old single mother of a 2 year old. I guess a bright side is that her child wasn't in the vehicle with her. I will be damned if I am going to be stuck watching someone die again, and will start carrying a fire extinguisher in my car. Hell I will carry two. Safety hammer and seat belt cutter too. I think you should too. Being the first person to help at a wreck isn't such a rare thing. I have been the first or second person to stop at a wreck in some rural area three times now. The first two times I was able to help and possibly saved lives with nothing but a little first aid knowledge. This time I couldn't. Fire extinguishers are cheap and easy to use. Maybe it will save your car, maybe it will save someone's life. Please start carrying an extinguisher. Take a first aid class. Read some guides or books. astrollinthepork fucked around with this message at 20:47 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 16:32
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Oh no. Condolences for your experience.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:09
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StormDrain posted:Oh no. Condolences for your experience. I'm not worried for myself. It was rough riding away and most of the night but I'm mostly good now. Thanks anyway! Here is some info wrt to extinguishers in cars. http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/glovebox/fire-extinguisher.php And here is a small extinguisher marketed for car use. $18! http://www.homedepot.com/p/Kidde-Automobile-5-B-C-Dry-Powder-Fire-Extinguisher-21006287N/205753454?N=5yc1vZbmgpZ1z10q6x Small is better than nothing.
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Jun 5, 2015 17:17
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drat that is some heavy poo poo right there. Note taken.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:32
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For a combination hammer and seatbelt cutter, pick up something like a LifeHammer. I have one of these mounted up front in my car plus two additional seatbelt cutters in the back for passengers. It may seem like overkill, but every second counts, and you don't realize how much of a pain in the rear end it is to escape a vehicle until you've tried. This weekend I really need to make a trip to Home Depot to rig up a better mount for the extinguisher so that I can put it next to the driver's seat.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:44
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I have to wonder if the driver was trapped so much so that she was unable to get out of the SUV, if she would have even been able to reach for a fire extinguisher had there been one in the vehicle.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:47
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HotCanadianChick posted:I have to wonder if the driver was trapped so much so that she was unable to get out of the SUV, if she would have even been able to reach for a fire extinguisher had there been one in the vehicle. I was thinking more if the driver ahead of me that stopped or myself had one. I don't know what the interior of the car looked like. Flames were situated around the firewall and drivers side floorpan. Good excuse to finally buy a benchmade I've always wanted: http://www2.knifecenter.com/item/BM...r-Glass-Breaker astrollinthepork fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 19:49
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Fuuuuck. Yeah, that's not a good day. We have a couple of AI regulars with firefighting experience, no doubt they'll be along to weigh in with size/type recommendations and so on. HotCanadianChick posted:I have to wonder if the driver was trapped so much so that she was unable to get out of the SUV, if she would have even been able to reach for a fire extinguisher had there been one in the vehicle. Edit: Yeah, as he just posted.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:50
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InitialDave posted:If the OP had had one, as had the other people there, though, they may have had a fighting chance of helping. The OP was on a motorcycle. I think it may just have been one of those situations where short of EMT/Fire rescue showing up before the flames got going, nothing anyone could have done would have changed things. Sad but it happens sometimes.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:51
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I keep a fancy 2.5lb halon extinguisher in my DD, which I only have because I bought it originally for my old ACVW that I sold. This reminds me that I really need an extinguisher for my apartment, too. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004BZIK66
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Jun 5, 2015 19:53
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Also, this was a few months ago, but if you have a Kidde extinguisher, check the model and date code against this recall notice. If yours is one of the affected units, they'll send you a free replacement.
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Jun 5, 2015 19:58
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HotCanadianChick posted:The OP was on a motorcycle. astrollinthepork fucked around with this message at 20:07 on Jun 5, 2015 |
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Jun 5, 2015 19:59
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Harsh, that's not pleasant to have witnessed. I'm sure I remember reading a good in depth analysis of the effect of portable extinguishers in cars, something from a rally tech if I remember? The outcome was if you don't see the smoke start, 5lb will no thing, 10lb may gain someone a few seconds. the little 1-2lb jobbies you see clipped to ricers a-pillars will barely put out an enthusiastic ashtray. I'd like a professional to weigh in though, if there's one handy.
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Jun 5, 2015 20:30
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astrollinthepork posted:I found the news article today. 25 year old single mother of a 2 year old Fuuuuck.  I can't imagine my kid losing either me or my wife.I think I've got an extinguisher in my GMC, but I should probably check and see if it's too old anyway. Hell, I should really probably put one in my DDs too. Anyone got an extinguisher mount they particularly like?
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Jun 5, 2015 20:37
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I claim zero personal expertise in this, but didn't we have threads on this a while back where people whose cars do regularly catch on fire (Vanagon owners basically?) said that an extinguisher isn't much use for a significant underhood / fuel fire? As in, you empty it directly into the bay and then about 15 seconds later it's burning again. If so, it probably wouldn't do the tiniest amount of good if the source of the fire's on the other side of the euphemistically named firewall from you. In which case easily reachable glass breakers might be more helpful.
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Jun 5, 2015 20:37
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God drat that's rough. 
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Jun 5, 2015 20:39
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Most cases you'd be better off with a shovel if I remember right.
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Jun 5, 2015 21:35
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OP, that sucks. Seconding the fire extinguisher part, but be careful with First Aid, as if you don't know what you are doing, you could injure the victim even more (moving them if they have a spinal injury, for example), and also because our litigious society is so hosed up. I remember reading a story about a guy who sued someone who pulled him from a flaming vehicle because now he's crippled from surviving the fire or something like that. No good deed goes unpunished. Not that story, but an example (yes, I know it's from a law firm's site): http://www.neildymott.com/save-lifeget-sued
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Jun 5, 2015 22:17
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drat I don't have really anything to add, other than I've been meaning to pick up some extinguishers for my cars for probably over a year now, maybe I'll finally go do it.
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Jun 5, 2015 22:20
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As long as it is strapped down proper an extinguisher is a great tool to have handy, while most people won't save a life with it a few might. Mostly though they come in handy for saving property, anyone who hangs around car enthusiasts will witness a few car fires or watch a friend try to put out a stove top oil flare-up with water. If you can find an outdated one that needs a refill, get some practice outdoors. I bet fire stations do some sort of public outreach too. While my lifestyle in relation to fire might be a bit of an outlier I can think of at least 3 times off the top of my head that an extinguisher was used in an emergency and 5+ where one would have helped out if it were handy. Again, as long as it is strapped down. A five pound missile isn't going to help anyone in a crash. I hope talking through this helps with the trauma and keep an eye on yourself in the next few months.
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Jun 5, 2015 22:24
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Hypnolobster posted:I keep a fancy 2.5lb halon extinguisher in my DD, which I only have because I bought it originally for my old ACVW that I sold. This reminds me that I really need an extinguisher for my apartment, too. I would recommend dry powder over halon/c02 especially in an enclosed space. I've been hit with a faceful of C02 from an extinguisher and it's not like you can just hold your breath - it felt exactly like I'd been winded by being hit in the solar plexus, just sucked the air right out of my mouth. But yes, absolutely carry any fire extinguisher over none.
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Jun 6, 2015 05:04
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Jesus gently caress, that's some nightmare fuel right there, and also why I could never be a first responder. I hope you have medical insurance that covers therapy.. As mentioned, a fire extinguisher isn't going to do poo poo against anything more than a small fire - they're basically useless against liquid fires (gasoline, oil, etc) once it's burning - and even then, most people panic and aim at the middle or top of the fire, instead of the base. The best someone might have been able to do would have been to slow down the flames a little, IF they had used the extinguisher immediately when the fire started. And with the way you say it was flaring up, and on its side instead of upside down, there's a very good chance the fuel pump was still happily pumping away. The engine computer should have shut it off once the engine died, but with it on its side, it's possible the engine was still running for a bit, until it locked up from oil starvation (or until some critical wires burned through). I have successfully used a fire extinguisher in a car fire before (10 pound ABC dry chemical), but it was my own vehicle, and it only worked because I pulled over as soon as I noticed smoke coming out from under the hood. It was a small fire caused by oil dripping from one of the valve covers onto the exhaust manifold (engine was also borderline overheating + over 105 outside), and it still took most of the (dry chemical) extinguisher to put it out (and keep it out, since oil kept dripping even after the engine was off). You can often find free or discounted first aid classes offered by your local fire dept, if you'd like to learn the basics of first aid - you'll learn when it's best to just call 911 and keep the person conscious without touching them, and when "gently caress it, they're going to die if I don't intervene RIGHT NOW, even if intervening means they may never walk again" matters. And, unfortunately, when it's best to just get the gently caress out. I don't know if it helps (probably not), but if the SUV was already on fire, even if you had an extinguisher, had shown up quickly, and somehow got her out without 3rd degree burns (and the only thing that would have protected you from them would have been your riding gear), she likely wouldn't have survived the burns. Getting someone out of a car on its side is a lot harder than one that's upright or upside down. randomidiot fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 06:32
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On the note of keeping a fire extinguisher in your vehicle, make absolutely sure you get a metal one, preferably steel and not aluminum. The plastic ones are not designed for the temperature fluctuation between 120 degrees and 0 degrees in your car season to season, and they can burst or leak. Get a metal one, period. Yes, they are a little more expensive, but you will hate yourself if you have to clean white powder off every surface of your interior. I keep a 10 pound ABC in each of my trucks. I have used them on multiple occasions.
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Jun 6, 2015 06:47
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I drive a Fiero. I carry two. Small one in the cabin, big one in the trunk.
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Jun 6, 2015 07:45
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some texas redneck posted:fuel pump was still happily pumping away. The engine computer should have shut it off once the engine died Most modern cars have an impact senor inline with the pump or in software, fords from the mid nineties had a little black box with a red button that would trip with a good whack in all but the down direction. I added one to my old lotus because it was a fireball waiting to happen even without getting in a wreck and if I come across another I'll save it for the next classic car I buy.
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Jun 6, 2015 10:23
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Ford has been doing the fuel pump impact sensor since the late 80s, at least. Basically since they started doing EFI. That said, I've seen pretty modern SUVs (think 2005+) get rolled, and the driven wheels keep spinning with the engine bouncing off the rev limiter until the engine seizes from lack of oil. The newer stuff relies on the airbag sensors to shut off the fuel, and since standards are so lax on SUVs (particular body on frame stuff), a lot of newer SUVs only had front impact airbags until pretty recently. I did see a brand new Honda minivan get t-boned last year; the driver couldn't see poo poo because of the 50,000 airbags that went off, and was so stunned that she just let it roll down the road for about a half mile. I stopped and helped them out of the van once it ran off the road and stopped; it was still in drive, but it was beeping, the airbag light was flashing, and it was flashing "ENGINE OFF" (or something similar) on the driver info display. I had a hard time getting past the airbags just to put it in park, and they had a hard time getting out of it for the same reason. Since everyone was out, I was more concerned with keeping it from rolling back into traffic.
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Jun 6, 2015 10:38
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First off, thank you for trying. And i am sorry you had to witness something like that. Nothing really helps the poo poo feeling you get after such an experiance, but i find that find a good buddy you trust and just talk them trough it can do wonders. Secondly: re extinguishers and putting out car fires. I am a firefighter and when i did my "research project" i focused on traffic accidents and fire hazards. I hold an engineering degree in fire prevention and response. but that dosent matter, this is mostly common sense. Yes, you should have extinguishers in your car. I suggest one small on in the cabin and a larger one in the trunk. If you drive a car that is prone to engine fires (fireo dude and the guy with the vw van i am looking at you) i would suggest a third wet chemical extingiusher stored in the engine compartment. The one stored in the cabin should ideally be placed with in reach of the drivers seat. i keep mine strapped to the front of the drivers seat in the footwell. Its not a bad idea to have this one be a co2 canister for electrical and smaller fires. Obviously, you will need to strap this in securely so it dosent kill you when you come to a sudden stop. The trunk one should be as large as you have room for, and dry chemical (or powder if you will) is a good idea. If you have heard that you shouldent use powder because it makes a mess and fucks up everything electrical, you are correct that it makes a mess, but if you have a car fire you are not able to put out with just your hands or your c02 bottle... then just dump the powder in there. A car fire can intensify in seconds, you have no time to figure proīs and cons of chemical responses, just put that poo poo out. Extinguishing the fire: if the occupant is still trapped in the car, and there is a working fire you need to get them out asap. use your extinguishers to knock the fire down abit if it is all ready in the cabin, or in other ways hindering your access. reach over the driver, loosen seatbelt and remove key from ignition. this cuts power and kills the fuel pump if is still going. If there is a fire in the car, and the occupants are injured keep your priorities straight. Get them out and away from the fire is number one. stabilizing their necks does gently caress all if they are burned to a crisp. If they have a spinal injuries and sues, and for some unthinkable reason should win, just leave the country for one that is not as retarded. Yes, sometimes a car fire is impossible to put out with just extinguishers, that does not mean you should not try. It will buy time to remove occupants and give the FD a fighting chance to put it out before it the gas tank cracks or it spreads to other cars/terrain/buildings. some practical tips: if the fire is in the engine bay, do not open the hood fully, but find an access point for the nozzle of your extinguisher and use that. Opening the hood will make a mass influx of oxygen to the fire and make it go big fast Look below the car, if there is a fuel leak and you have the occupants out of the car. Stand down. get people to a safe distance and wait for the proffesionals. you do not have the gear to be standing in a puddle of burning gasoline. If you have the time and mental fortitude. put on the handbrake. Donīt be like these norwegian firefighters also try to stay off to the side of the burning car, standing directly in front of, or to the rear can be a bit hazardous due to the number of things that go "boom" in a car. Most noteably the gas pistons on the trunk and boot. the battery can also pop and spray its funky juices all about. lastly, if your car catches fire and the FD comes to put it out, let them know if you have any gas containers, hazmat or other surprises in your car. If your car have a magnesium block or other large magnesium parts, let them know and stand back and enjoy the fireworks if they attack with water https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsYOTERciOU fjelltorsk fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 13:12
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Thats a horrible thing. Getting stuck in a burning car is one of my automotive nightmares (along with the one where I am in my landrover in a post-apocalyptic world and get eaten by zombies because the landy wont start and my doors don't lock). I currently only have one fire extinguisher between all my vehicles and it is currently wedged in the back door pocket of my daily (its bracket is still bolted into my van next to the driver). I must get round to buying some proper ones and fixing them in place. It is quite annoying that modern cars don't come with a fire extinguisher as standard fixed within driver reach - or at least leave an easy optional mounting position for you. In my Toyota the front lower section of the drivers seat has very little metalwork to bolt to, and the lower part of the passenger side dash is all flimsy plastic.
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Jun 6, 2015 14:25
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Tomarse posted:I must get round to buying some proper ones and fixing them in place. It is quite annoying that modern cars don't come with a fire extinguisher as standard fixed within driver reach - or at least leave an easy optional mounting position for you. I'm sure the marketing department would kill that idea in a heartbeat for anything that's not track-focused. Shipping an extinguisher would imply that you'll need it, so the only way I expect we'd ever see that is if it was mandated. Hell, even if it was mandated I'm sure there'd be legions of right-wingers out there bitching about how the gubmint was interfering with their rights somehow.
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Jun 6, 2015 15:19
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wolrah posted:I'm sure the marketing department would kill that idea in a heartbeat for anything that's not track-focused. Shipping an extinguisher would imply that you'll need it, so the only way I expect we'd ever see that is if it was mandated. I still occasionally meet people who bitch about seat belts.
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Jun 6, 2015 15:52
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Enourmo posted:I still occasionally meet people who bitch about seat belts. I think these are the same group of grognards who bitch about fuel injection. They don't need "The computer" telling them how their drat engine is going to run.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:23
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Please don't hesitate to help someone in an emergency due to fear of legal ramifications. Most countries have good Samaritan laws, legally protecting anyone who tries to help a person in immediate danger. Laws vary from state to state or province to province, so check your local books for the details in your area.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:33
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That's pretty horrible, OP. Fire extinguishers are mandated in many former USSR countries. Not sure how much good they do though, besides giving cops an excuse to ask for bribes. My uneducated opinion is that either the fire is still small enough to just GTFO, or it's already large and your little extinguisher won't do poo poo but YMMV.
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Jun 6, 2015 16:36
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Saga posted:I claim zero personal expertise in this, but didn't we have threads on this a while back where people whose cars do regularly catch on fire (Vanagon owners basically?) said that an extinguisher isn't much use for a significant underhood / fuel fire? As in, you empty it directly into the bay and then about 15 seconds later it's burning again. I asked this question here are few months ago and the concensus was that a fire extinguisher was not much use for a car fire as in the real world, once it is on fire, get out and call your insurance company. It did encourage me to buy window breakers and I've just ordered a couple of ResQMe knock-offs from ebay. I did look at the hammers, but youtube videos suggest that they don't always work, but the resqme does - especially if you aren't able to swing a hammer. astrollinthepork - thanks for trying. It sounds like there wasn't anything you could have done, even if you'd rolled up with a full disaster kit. spog fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jun 6, 2015 |
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Jun 6, 2015 18:31
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mobby_6kl posted:That's pretty horrible, OP. Yep. You need to be aware that your fire extinguisher is going to do very little to anything that didn't start a few seconds ago. On the left is a race car fire system, designed to be activated pretty much as soon as fire is detected and fills the cabin/engine/trunk with foam. To the right is a generic kitchen fire extinguisher. 
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Jun 6, 2015 18:56
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FatCow posted:Yep. You need to be aware that your fire extinguisher is going to do very little to anything that didn't start a few seconds ago. Yeah, a fueled car fire you are not going to be able to put out with one extinguisher, however. It will buy you workingspace to get occupants out. Also a fair amount of car fires start small either electrical or with a small amount of oil getting on hot exhaust parts. I responded to a burning semi truck once, where one of the brakes had caught fire and spread to the rubber in the tires and mudguards. The emergency line operator held communications and could relay to us how he stood there and gave colour commentary to how this very small fire stayed calm for 4-5 minutes before as we rolled in one of the diesel tanks ruptured and we got to play all superhero like when the load of pre baked goods caught fire. even a small dry chemical container would have been sufficent to keep this fire small until help arrived or even put it out. and also you have the glorious tale of the "400 burning dildos" where extinguishers actually helped, but i dont know if burning sextoys are relevant
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Jun 6, 2015 20:13
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Thank you for the kind words and advice. Especially to fjelltorsk. Learning how little extinguishers actually affect car fires is a sobering realization, but I am still going to carry one. I think that even a few seconds is very important in such situations. Fatalities from car fires are a relatively rare thing but it does not hurt to be prepared as much as possible. At the very least a safety hammer, seat belt cutter, and basic first aid costs very little and takes up little room. Barring that, first aid knowledge will definitely help you in these situations. Don't come across a wreck and be helpless like I was, whatever the situation may be. Fire, overturned car, trapped passengers, shock, or a million other scenarios. Don't be unprepared without basic equipment or ignorant of what to do. Even something as simple as knowing when to keep someone still and calm vs extricating them from a vehicle is invaluable.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:19
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astrollinthepork posted:Thank you for the kind words and advice. Especially to fjelltorsk. Learning how little extinguishers actually affect car fires is a sobering realization, but I am still going to carry one. I think that even a few seconds is very important in such situations. Fatalities from car fires are a relatively rare thing but it does not hurt to be prepared as much as possible. At the very least a safety hammer, seat belt cutter, and basic first aid costs very little and takes up little room. Barring that, first aid knowledge will definitely help you in these situations. Don't come across a wreck and be helpless like I was, whatever the situation may be. Fire, overturned car, trapped passengers, shock, or a million other scenarios. Don't be unprepared without basic equipment or ignorant of what to do. Even something as simple as knowing when to keep someone still and calm vs extricating them from a vehicle is invaluable. People like you save lives. In this case, there wasn't anything that you could have done: the situation was too bad and had already gone past the point of rescue when you arrived. But you made an effort. You kept your head and tried and for that, you deserve my thanks.
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Jun 6, 2015 20:35
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astrollinthepork posted:Thank you for the kind words and advice. Especially to fjelltorsk. Learning how little extinguishers actually affect car fires is a sobering realization, but I am still going to carry one. You should, because it just might make the difference. I've been a firefighter for the better part of my life so I've seen a whole lot. If you get the extinguisher on things early you just might stop the nightmare fuel that you unfortunately had to experience. But based on your description I concur with the others saying that is was just too late. Anything short of a mini pumper, preferably with CAFS, would have done little to nothing. Mini tools for breaking windows and cutting seat belts are great, but often impractical for everyday carry. I have two, one in my gear and one attached to my gear bag that sits in my car. You can tell they've been though some poo poo:  What you might want to carry is a knife or multi tool. That's actually useful enough for everyday situations that it's worth carrying and could be useful in extraordinary situations as well. You can learn to break automotive side windows relatively safely with the handle of a folding knife or multi tool. I'm sorry to hear you had to go through that. I still can't sleep much the evening after a fatal that I've been on. And I'm nearly 25 years into seeing this poo poo on a regular basis. But thank you for stopping and actually trying to do something. You are among a minority who would.
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Jun 6, 2015 21:33
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Motronic: could you shed some light on something for me? Why does american firefighters seem so stubborn not to don their masks when working a car fire? whenever i see a helmet video or a youtube clip of american fires most of the dudes manning the hose wear their airpacks on their back and the mask on the chest. I also see alot of guys hanging around getting exposed to the smoke for now good reason? One of the reason i ask was that we had two FDNY dudes hanging around our house for a month 2 years ago on a exchange thingie. They would call us out for being sissies for masking up early and often. i guess its just a cultural thing. The norwegian SOP for car fires is one or two smokedivers in mask and full ppe putting out the fire and getting exposed, with one smoke diver in back up and the rest of the crew for support. This way you reduce the amount of bunker gear you have to bag for decom before rtb and for most car fires you really donīt need more than one dude spraying water or cafs anyhow. /derail
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Jun 6, 2015 22:43
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