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Hello Sailor posted:Go away, kyrie. You can't even tell the difference between Catholic and Protestant doctrine. Are you referring to something in my post or are you dragging up something else from the past? If the former then make your point more clearly, if the latter then I don't care.
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Jun 20, 2015 13:04
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Wheeee posted:There's also a lot of institutional inertia in any organization as large and old as the Catholic church and the Pope only has dictatorial powers as long as the other powerful men surrounding him support his legitimacy. Change is happening and, frankly, it's happening extremely rapidly when you consider the context. What are these powerful men going to do about it? It is not like they can just elect a antipope and move the holy see to Avignon. They literally elected him as god's representative on earth. How do you undo that without making your religion even more of a punchline than it already is?
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Jun 20, 2015 13:05
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NihilismNow posted:What are these powerful men going to do about it? It is not like they can just elect a antipope and move the holy see to Avignon.
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Jun 20, 2015 13:09
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NihilismNow posted:What are these powerful men going to do about it? It is not like they can just elect a antipope and move the holy see to Avignon. The Pope cannot be dismissed from his position, even if he goes mad or falls into a coma.
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Jun 20, 2015 13:10
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there are mechanisms of opposition short of impeachment this goes for the catholic church just as much as it goes for a secular government
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Jun 20, 2015 13:36
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The Insect Court posted:You slide into the thread, squeeze out a post impying that Jared Diamond is a lying racist monster by linking to an abstract of a single paper you haven't actually read and wouldn't have the background to understand anyway, and then whine about how the people calling you out on your pretentious idiocy just hate the browns. Which is tbh pretty standard Effectronicaposting. You still haven't provided your anthropological credentials, amigo, and going to bat for Jared Diamond is, a-hah, not helping your case.
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Jun 20, 2015 14:47
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Kyrie eleison posted:Are you referring to something in my post or are you dragging up something else from the past? If the former then make your point more clearly, if the latter then I don't care. I don't give a flying gently caress what you do or don't care about, because I'm stepping on your neck before you poo poo up another thread. Don't like being exposed before people have a chance to reply to you, thinking you're genuine? I'm sure you can see the "report" button. Use it. I loving dare you. I'm referring to you outing yourself as a troll pretending to be a Catholic in at least two other threads by failing to do your research and mistakenly citing Protestant doctrine as Catholic. Hello Sailor fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jun 20, 2015 |
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Jun 20, 2015 17:01
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Hello Sailor posted:I don't give a flying gently caress what you do or don't care about, because I'm stepping on your neck before you poo poo up another thread. Don't like being exposed before people have a chance to reply to you, thinking you're genuine? I'm sure you can see the "report" button. Use it. I loving dare you. Why would you inflict that dude's posts on yourself, use the ignore function
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Jun 20, 2015 17:08
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Hello Sailor posted:I'm referring to you outing yourself as a troll pretending to be a Catholic in at least two other threads by failing to do your research and mistakenly citing Protestant doctrine as Catholic.
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Jun 20, 2015 17:13
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Guavanaut posted:To be fair most of the Catholics I know don't know a great deal about their own church doctrine. The difference being that the majority of Catholics don't claim to be an authority on it.
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Jun 20, 2015 17:33
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Hello Sailor posted:I don't give a flying gently caress what you do or don't care about, because I'm stepping on your neck before you poo poo up another thread. Don't like being exposed before people have a chance to reply to you, thinking you're genuine? I'm sure you can see the "report" button. Use it. I loving dare you. Oh in that case I don't care then. Thanks for acting as watchdog and please let me know if I post any erroneous doctrine in this thread. I don't know specifically what you are referring to, but everyone is capable of mistakes, especially in something as complicated as theology. And no I do not have platinum, you can tell because my name does not have a grenade logo next to it. Thanks.
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Jun 20, 2015 20:39
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Kyrie eleison posted:Oh in that case I don't care then. Thanks for acting as watchdog and please let me know if I post any erroneous doctrine in this thread. I don't know specifically what you are referring to, but everyone is capable of mistakes, especially in something as complicated as theology. Thanks. This would seem more reasonable if you hadn't spent so much time gloating about people burning in hellfire.
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Jun 20, 2015 20:41
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SedanChair posted:This would seem more reasonable if you hadn't spent so much time gloating about people burning in hellfire. Are you trying to make this thread about me and my posts in other threads? I was just posting useful information about ex cathedra and salvation doctrine because people were confused. Personally I would rather discuss the Pope's interesting encyclical which I support 100%. I think we should enact the Catholic economic policy known of as "distributism." Has anyone talked about that in this thread yet? Has anyone here read the encyclical or do you just care about other stuff that is unrelated to the thread subject.
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Jun 20, 2015 20:48
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Some quotes (bolding and brackets mine): We were not meant to be inundated by cement, asphalt, glass and metal, and deprived of physical contact with nature. Real relationships with others, with all the challenges they entail, now tend to be replaced by a type of internet communication which enables us to choose or eliminate relationships at whim, thus giving rise to a new type of contrived emotion which has more to do with devices and displays than with other people and with nature. True wisdom, as the fruit of self-examination, dialogue and generous encounter between persons, is not acquired by a mere accumulation of data which eventually leads to overload and confusion, a sort of mental pollution. [On the continuation of poverty:] This is due partly to the fact that many professionals, opinion makers, communications media and centres of power, being located in affluent urban areas, are far removed from the poor, with little direct contact with their problems. To blame population growth instead of extreme and selective consumerism on the part of some, is one way of refusing to face the issues. It is an attempt to legitimize the present model of distribution, where a minority believes that it has the right to consume in a way which can never be universalized, since the planet could not even contain the waste products of such consumption. The failure of global summits on the environment make it plain that our politics are subject to technology and finance. At one extreme, we find those who doggedly uphold the myth of progress and tell us that ecological problems will solve themselves simply with the application of new technology and without any need for ethical considerations or deep change. At the other extreme are those who view men and women and all their interventions as no more than a threat, jeopardizing the global ecosystem, and consequently the presence of human beings on the planet should be reduced and all forms of intervention prohibited. We need but think of the nuclear bombs dropped in the middle of the twentieth century, or the array of technology which Nazism, Communism and other totalitarian regimes have employed to kill millions of people, to say nothing of the increasingly deadly arsenal of weapons available for modern warfare. We have certain superficial mechanisms, but we cannot claim to have a sound ethics, a culture and spirituality genuinely capable of setting limits and teaching clear-minded self-restraint. -- I'll leave it at that for now
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Jun 20, 2015 21:42
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SedanChair posted:This would seem more reasonable if you hadn't spent so much time gloating about people burning in hellfire.  ) would spend his homily's talking about how we should stop being critical of people, stop judging people, stop being gloomy, and just love everyone unconditionally since due to quantum physics proving that on the subatomic level everything is connected as frozen light. The light of God if you will and how billions of years ago God created all this light from a big bang and created everything through evolution to show his great power.  He was seriously a great priest that got me back to liking the church and not being as cynical as I was back then too. Loved to talk about dancing too since he was semi famous for being a former Broadway actor in 40s before deciding to join the priesthood, but he would still do shows into the 70s and 80s. He retired in 94, but became our adjunct priest in like 2011-12 till he died in early 2015. People here loved him except for some conservative middle aged housewives who didn't like his "hippy talks". As for Francis, its easy to be a cynic that he's just playing up the populist angle to get people to forget about all the bad PR the church has gotten in the last oh 12 years, but he's still doing stuff which I appreciate. I don't think the Vatican should sell off the stuff in their Museums for instance since there is a lot of great artwork there (though the Sistine Chapel is really overrated; School of Athens is much better since it was done by an actual painter, not a sculptor)
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Jun 21, 2015 06:51
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Kyrie eleison posted:Nazism, Communism and other totalitarian regimes Wrap it up, Communailures, the Pope's a Social Democrat.
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Jun 21, 2015 10:21
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Wheeee posted:Wrap it up, Communailures, the Pope's a Social Democrat.
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Jun 21, 2015 11:08
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Kyrie eleison posted:I'll leave it at that for now do us all a favor and just leave
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Jun 21, 2015 11:55
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down with slavery posted:do us all a favor and just leave I don't see how letting you post against straw man Christianity is doing you a favor. If the mods make it a rule that Christians aren't allowed here then I will leave, and you can believe whatever you want to believe and we can all deal with the consequences of that, otherwise I'm going to keep posting the truth about things because I believe that the truth is good for you and I believe it's good for everyone when we are all properly educated. This thread is literally about the Pope and his latest encyclical. Now personally I think the economy and environment are in need of some massive structural changes and I think it's good that the leader of the world's largest and most influential religion and traditional leader of Western civilization is loudly advocating for it.
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Jun 21, 2015 12:05
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Kyrie eleison posted:I believe that the truth is good for you 
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Jun 21, 2015 13:32
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That's not the correct definition of baptism by desire.
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Jun 22, 2015 03:35
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Vladimir Putin posted:That's not the correct definition of baptism by desire. Thank you for this very informative correction.
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Jun 22, 2015 03:38
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Kyrie eleison posted:Thank you for this very informative correction. You probably got the definition from Wikipedia which isn't all together correct. It covers if you die on the way to your baptism but that's probably a highly narrow and more or less misses the entire point. Baptism by desire covers all people who desire to know God but due to their circumstances (athiest, buddist, Muslim, Jew, whatever) don't have the opportunity to have a baptism in the way Catholics understand it and receive the benefits and go to heaven. Therefore if you have the desire in your heart God makes up the difference and you are baptized 'by desire' instead of 'by water'. It's a huge thing because it means that nonCatholics, non Christians, non anything have the opportunity to go to heaven. The Wikipedia definition while correct makes it seem like the concept was made up to cover people who got into an unfortunate car accident on their way to their baptism.
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Jun 22, 2015 04:01
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Network Pesci posted:I'm not saying he's ignored it, I know he's the most comparatively progressive Pope in forever and he's apologized for it and said it wouldn't happen again. But that's something that's happened a thousand times, even if it's usually insincere. Lots of politicians or corporate PR guys have apologized for bad things. As Pope, Francis has the unique ability to invoke divine power and make a ruling that could stand potentially for millenia, to say the final word on a Catholic problem that's a cliche, a punchline. Why do you think that one of the largest institutions in the world is immune to institutional inertia
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Jun 22, 2015 04:15
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Vladimir Putin posted:You probably got the definition from Wikipedia which isn't all together correct. It covers if you die on the way to your baptism but that's probably a highly narrow and more or less misses the entire point. From the CCC (italics theirs): 1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament. 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. Well, I guess that safely accounts for those lost tribes who are "ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church", but what about the likes of people who know well of both and have the easy opportunity to be baptized, but refuse it? Are they afforded baptism of desire?
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Jun 22, 2015 08:09
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Kyrie eleison posted:From the CCC (italics theirs): The bible is made up.
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Jun 22, 2015 08:11
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Salt Fish posted:The bible is made up. Yes, this looks like a clear case of "baptism of desire" to me. Off to Heaven with this one!
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Jun 22, 2015 08:13
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NihilismNow posted:What are these powerful men going to do about it? It is not like they can just elect a antipope and move the holy see to Avignon. Says you.
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Jun 22, 2015 09:06
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Kyrie eleison posted:From the CCC (italics theirs): No opportunity doesn't always mean geographic isolation it could mean cultural isolation which would apply for Baptism by Desire.
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Jun 23, 2015 02:37
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Hi, I'm in fifteenth-century Mexica. The city's beautiful, but our flower war with the Totonacs is going poorly. Tlatoani Montezuma is rightly named and revered by all, though, so I trust he'll bring us worthy sacrifices.
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Jun 23, 2015 03:35
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Salt Fish posted:The bible is made up.
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Jun 23, 2015 04:40
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Salt Fish posted:The bible is made up. pretty sure i've seen a bible before - was it just a cover with blank pages inside??
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Jun 23, 2015 14:27
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Kyrie please get out.
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Jun 23, 2015 16:54
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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I don't really understand the Pope's statement on gun manufacturers, he obviously doesn't want to disband the military in Catholic countries or give up the armed protection he has when traveling. I know there have been some cases where bad translation of his statements has caused confusion, does anyone have more insight on this?
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Jun 23, 2015 18:27
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blowfish posted:Kyrie please get out.
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Jun 23, 2015 18:39
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I don't know about that. John Paul II, Benedict and Francis have all been staunchly anti-war. And Pope Francis is pretty famous for disregarding the advice of his security detail, supposedly even sneaking out without them in Rome. So, yeah, no. You are pretty much entirely wrong.
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Jun 23, 2015 18:56
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There's a big difference between just war doctrine, which is in the Catechism, and full on pacifism. Taking the position that guns are bad regardless of context seems to be endorsing full on pacifism. If manufacturing guns is un-Christian then taking that to its logical conclusion would mean that a real Christian country wouldn't have guns or a military, it would be a pacifist country rather than one able to defend itself using just war doctrine.
MaxxBot fucked around with this message at 19:05 on Jun 23, 2015 |
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Jun 23, 2015 19:02
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Not necessarily. You can get around it the same way Christians used to get around not being able to charge interest -- just have non-Christians do it.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:10
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Shbobdb posted:Not necessarily. You can get around it the same way Christians used to get around not being able to charge interest -- just have non-Christians do it.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:18
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I just hope some bishop takes the Pope at his word and places some gun manufacturers in his diocese under interdiction. It'd be fun to see the resulting meltdown and a nice "better world" parallel to the interdiction of pro-abortion politicians in the '90s.
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Jun 23, 2015 19:30
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