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Watermelon City posted:I learned a while ago that I am descendant of Stonewall Jackson. It is an interesting piece of trivia for me but it seems like there are quite a few people who derive actual pride from being the descendant of Confederates and are somehow emotionally invested in making sure nobody badmouths grandpappy's fight. What's that about?
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Jun 24, 2015 00:06
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CommieGIR posted:Andrew Johnson didn't have the heart to see Reconstruction through, and the Southern states were given back political power much faster than they deserved, which resulted in political obstructionism and appeals to the Democratic party which helped yank the teeth out of Reconstruction. While Andrew Johnson was a major hindrance for his term, Reconstruction progressed reasonably well under the Grant administration. It was with the election of Rutherford B. Hayes that Reconstruction truly died when, supposedly as part of his concessions to the Democrats to secure a contested election, the last federal soldiers were withdrawn with the predictably horrific results.
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Jun 24, 2015 00:23
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Watermelon City posted:Also does anyone else think that Ken Burns' Civil War gave way too much airtime to weepy neo-Confederate Southerners? That's hardly a nice thing to say about respected historian Shelby Foote.  But yeah Foote is way too sympathetic to Jefferson Davis
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Jun 24, 2015 00:47
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Here's a picture of senator, one-time vice president and noted crazy person John C. Calhoun:
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Jun 24, 2015 00:49
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I'm reading Battle Cry of Freedom right now and the stuff about slave hunting is actually pretty comical (when they failed, as opposed to when they succeeded when it's just tragic). Like one time a slave owner brought his whole family to a house in Pennsylvania where two escaped slaves were hiding out. Like the Big Bad Wolf he shouts that he's not leaving until he gets his property. Six black dudes armed-up with muskets inside blow him to hell and shoot his son in the process lmao. Another time some slave hunters showed up to a town (I think in Massachusetts) to round-up some runaways. Turns out there's a radical anti-slavery convention in the city and the slave hunters get run out on a rail.
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Jun 24, 2015 00:58
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Omi-Polari posted:I'm reading Battle Cry of Freedom right now and the stuff about slave hunting is actually pretty comical (when they failed, as opposed to when they succeeded when it's just tragic). That last bit happened from time to time in New England in particular. Slave hunters would arrive in a town, then shortly afterward the local heavies would all show up with ax handles and whatnot and inform them that, golly, there just don't seem to be any escaped slaves here maybe you wanna move along now? 
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Jun 24, 2015 01:02
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Captain_Maclaine posted:That last bit happened from time to time in New England in particular. Slave hunters would arrive in a town, then shortly afterward the local heavies would all show up with ax handles and whatnot and inform them that, golly, there just don't seem to be any escaped slaves here maybe you wanna move along now?  It's a good book.
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Jun 24, 2015 01:06
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Watermelon City posted:Also does anyone else think that Ken Burns' Civil War gave way too much airtime to weepy neo-Confederate Southerners? Yes, very. My college history courses made the first several episodes of that documentary nearly unwatchable. Once you finish Battle Cry of Freedom I highly recommend This Mighty Scourge. It's a collection of random essays by McPherson but they're extremely interesting and include two super important ones: one on how Grant isn't the drunk he is portrayed as, and one on exactly how the South rewrote history.
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Jun 24, 2015 01:55
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Yawgmoft posted:Once you finish Battle Cry of Freedom I highly recommend This Mighty Scourge. It's a collection of random essays by McPherson but they're extremely interesting and include two super important ones: one on how Grant isn't the drunk he is portrayed as, and one on exactly how the South rewrote history.
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Jun 24, 2015 02:24
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A Winner is Jew posted:I've posted this elsewhere but I'll do it again here. Does nobody in this thread have any clue about Sherman? The man liked white southerners and identified with their racial views. He did not burn the South and it's odd to see the thread endorsing Lost Cause history. He is a neat dude but he is not, I repeat, not the guy you want to hold up. Also, though it shouldn't be a surprise at this point, im seeing little awareness concerning current historical thinking about1876. Historians no longer hold this year as reconstructions end. In many ex confederate states the redeemers had already taken over with a mixture of violence and clever political maneuvers. In any case northern public opinion had soured on reconstruction and northern whites began to hold southern blacks with increasing animosity. Anti slavery advocates like the Liberal Republicans were commited to white supremacy in social issues as well as with non government intervention. Even Garrison, a man worth admiration, honestly believed his job ended with emancipation alone. Embarrassingly some of the circuit makers in similar social circles changed their rallying cry of anti slavery into pro imperialism. If we could redeem the nation by removing slavery, they argued, we can enlighten the uncivilized peoples of the world. The white north and white south (together) spat upon the good work done by the radical republicans in the preceding years. It's a little cliche at this point but Blight's "Race and Reunion" goes into how north and south reconciled and removed black roles from the public mindset. Of course the back slide was not instant and black political power continued in the South until the race nadir of the 1890s and onward. On a final note: Im fine with hating the CSA for a wide assortment of reasons. I will join you there. But the "TREASON!" talk is a little creepy. Their rebellion should be despised for its motivations and not the act of rebelling itself.
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Jun 24, 2015 03:50
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Marlows posted:On a final note: Im fine with hating the CSA for a wide assortment of reasons. I will join you there. But the "TREASON!" talk is a little creepy. Their rebellion should be despised for its motivations and not the act of rebelling itself. Granted, but the TREASON thing is mainly because creepy neo-confederate southerners tend to be the loudest american nationalists around, and the ones most likely to call other people traitors, which is beautifully  .
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Jun 24, 2015 04:20
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An interesting thing happened in the last couple of days: Amazon, Ebay, Walmart and Sears have all stopped selling products with the confederate flag on them. Major US flag maker Valley Forge Flag has also announced they've stopped making the flag. Megillah Gorilla fucked around with this message at 06:14 on Jun 24, 2015 |
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Jun 24, 2015 06:12
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Captain_Maclaine posted:That's hardly a nice thing to say about respected historian Shelby Foote.  .
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Jun 24, 2015 07:08
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Marlows posted:Embarrassingly some of the circuit makers in similar social circles changed their rallying cry of anti slavery into pro imperialism. If we could redeem the nation by removing slavery, they argued, we can enlighten the uncivilized peoples of the world. But the whole agrarian Jeffersonian Southron thing where you "live freely" was inseparable from millions of enslaved people and ripping children from the arms of their parents and selling them and oh god. Yeah, I know which was worse. But that I had that moment of sympathy attests to how good the book is. Gorilla Salad posted:An interesting thing happened in the last couple of days: But two things: 1) GOP elites, particularly Nikki Haley, have shown leadership here. 2) For-profit corporations engaging in political speech is having effects the right did not anticipate.
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Jun 24, 2015 11:27
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Another thing is that the GOP's marriage between big business and Southern-skewed white ethnic politics is a match that probably isn't going to last forever, especially since so much of the latter was tied up in opposition to banks, big business, bigness of all kinds (except big cotton). The closest living example of this today would be somebody like Ron Paul. That guy is a Confederate transported into the 21st century. So you embolden business to take political stances and it turns out they don't like certain things that are/were popular on the right. The South is doing okay in some respects economically but the image of it being a backward and racist place, with Confederate flags flying, is a major 500-pound-gorilla-in-the-room problem for recruiting large businesses to relocate. And states such as South Carolina are still pretty poor and languishing, and have missed the booms in Atlanta and the Texas megacities. The murders were a catalyst but this flag business is another sign the GOP is trying to soften the rusty and tetanus-prone edges of its white political machine.
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Jun 24, 2015 11:43
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Yeah but the GOP has managed to get poor Southerners on the side of the big banks and big business by convincing them that the New Deal was just a scheme by the blacks to steal all the money from rich and poor white people alike. I don't see that changing anytime soon, as demographic changes are only going to drive racist whites even crazier with fear and paranoia.
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Jun 24, 2015 12:18
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but the GOP has managed to get poor Southerners on the side of the big banks and big business by convincing them that the New Deal was just a scheme by the blacks to steal all the money from rich and poor white people alike. I don't see that changing anytime soon, as demographic changes are only going to drive racist whites even crazier with fear and paranoia.
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Jun 24, 2015 12:40
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True, I almost collapsed from shock this week when I saw even the usual shitheads like Graham and Haley acknowledge that flag is lovely and racist and time for it to go. In my fantasies that would break the Solid South again as the diehard white supremacists swear off the Republicans or vote for a new segregationist party, but pessimism leads me to believe they'll keep on voting straight ticket R.
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Jun 24, 2015 12:47
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Yawgmoft posted:
Is this a good order to read them in?
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Jun 24, 2015 12:56
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if our "president" "obama" was serious about convincing the south that the confederate flag is bad, he would publicly endorse it and tell everyone how amazingly rad it is
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Jun 24, 2015 13:52
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someone start the change.org petition
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Jun 24, 2015 13:52
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Marlows posted:On a final note: Im fine with hating the CSA for a wide assortment of reasons. I will join you there. But the "TREASON!" talk is a little creepy. Their rebellion should be despised for its motivations and not the act of rebelling itself. Yes it should. Keep in mind the context of the political fight for slavery in the preceding years. They tried every door within the system they possibly could to preserve the institution of slavery, and respected those institutions when it favored them. When in the majority, they passed things like the Fugitive Slave Act that attempted to force free states to live within a national plantation, and were more than happy to abide by the laws that held the United States together. When they were the minority, they plead states rights and said that the national government had no right to dictate such things. They stamped their feet and tried every political tactic possible to win the battle, but Abraham Lincoln's election signified their loss. In the US, when you lose the political battle, that's it. You swallow your pride, and accept that the majority of Americans don't support your policy. Instead, the south resorted to armed insurrection outside of the political framework because gently caress the US and it's government, we do what we want. If that's not treason, what the gently caress is?
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Jun 24, 2015 13:57
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Volkerball posted:Yes it should. Keep in mind the context of the political fight for slavery in the preceding years. They tried every door within the system they possibly could to preserve the institution of slavery, and respected those institutions when it favored them. When in the majority, they passed things like the Fugitive Slave Act that attempted to force free states to live within a national plantation, and were more than happy to abide by the laws that held the United States together. When they were the minority, they plead states rights and said that the national government had no right to dictate such things. They stamped their feet and tried every political tactic possible to win the battle, but Abraham Lincoln's election signified their loss. In the US, when you lose the political battle, that's it. You swallow your pride, and accept that the majority of Americans don't support your policy. Instead, the south resorted to armed insurrection outside of the political framework because gently caress the US and it's government, we do what we want. If that's not treason, what the gently caress is? i don't think this is marlow's point, i think marlow's point is more "gently caress the confederates, not rebellion in general" thus harping on about treason is ideologically not Correct
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Jun 24, 2015 14:26
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This wouldn't have happened if Kenny Powers was president. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ur7ZPHSOR8
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Jun 24, 2015 14:40
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Pretty sure the flag means "loser" in every single sense of the word.
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Jun 24, 2015 19:13
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Huh. Never seen this before - thanks for the link!
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Jun 24, 2015 21:38
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Whenever people talk about heritage not hate I ask them how they would feel if a local Buddhist temple used the swastika to denote themselves, like they do all throughout Asia. It would probably work better if they hated non-Christians less than white supremacists.
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Jun 25, 2015 03:40
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My feeling with the flag isn't so much the racism and hatred tied to it, but the fact that it's from one of America's many dark times. Getting rid of the flag will have no pros or cons to me as an individual. It affects my life in no way. It's simply a flag. But I do want to state this, what was the flag before the Confederates detached themselves from the North? The American flag was flown during slavery as well. Not the present day one, but an American flag nonetheless. But as I mentioned earlier, keep or get rid of the Confederate flag. It has no affect on me.
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Jun 25, 2015 04:43
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Smurple Purple posted:what was the flag before the Confederates detached themselves from the North? it didn't exist, hth
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Jun 25, 2015 04:56
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The white in the US flag is meant to symbolize purity and innocence. It was chosen to symbolize that by Europeans in the Colonial era. History is awful and petty, tribal regionalism is stupid. If Delaware had South Carolina's climate it would have been a slave state. The first abolitionist Colony was Georgia, and that was to create a buffer between Spanish Florida and obscenely wealthy Carolina.
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Jun 25, 2015 05:07
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As a direct descendant of John Brown, I can say I've never been more proud of my uncle than I am now that all these South will rise again, it was about state's rights idiots are crying literal rivers of tears. Thank you for your service, Uncle John 
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Jun 25, 2015 11:12
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:it didn't exist, hth It actually did although it only had 35 stars. The Union didn't recognize the South's decision to separate itself from the north so they never removed any stars from it.
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Jun 25, 2015 13:50
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VikingSkull posted:As a direct descendant of John Brown, I can say I've never been more proud of my uncle than I am now that all these South will rise again, it was about state's rights idiots are crying literal rivers of tears. Did your uncle marry his sister or what here, because otherwise you couldn't be his direct descendant.
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Jun 25, 2015 14:17
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Watermelon City posted:Forget about Jefferson Davis, Foote was gaga over Nathan Bedford Forrest Shelby Foote was weird in that he was definitely NOT a Lost Cause gently caress-o. He called Lincoln a straight-up genius, comes across as sincere when saying slavery was a huge horrible thing that screwed up everything about the country, and even said the failure to treat freed slaves better after emancipation was a huge crime itself. He was also a BIG admirer of Grant. BUT he also had a huge boner for random horrible scumbags like Forrest, and was totally immune to arguments to the contrary about how Forrest was a literal slave-dealer before the war, a war criminal during the war and KKK Grand Wizard after. I'd say he was mostly good but his blind spots where the cranky old white Southern dude opinions still lingered were simply AMAZING. e: It's like he made it 80% of the way there to learning his way out of bad history he was taught as a kid and was inspired to write a huge narrative about it, but that last 20% is still radioactive garbage. sean10mm fucked around with this message at 14:36 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 14:32
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Eifert Posting posted:If Delaware had South Carolina's climate it would have been a slave state. ...uh, Delware was a slave state, dude.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:55
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mastershakeman posted:Did your uncle marry his sister or what here, because otherwise you couldn't be his direct descendant. Fair point and bravo, your semantics game is on point.
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Jun 25, 2015 22:39
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Captain_Maclaine posted:...uh, Delware was a slave state, dude. I mean, I pulled delaware out of my rear end, but are you seriously going o argue that it was as crucial to their economy as the confederate states? There's a reason they went Union.
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Jun 26, 2015 00:28
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Eifert Posting posted:I mean, I pulled delaware out of my rear end, but are you seriously going o argue that it was as crucial to their economy as the confederate states? There's a reason they went Union. No of course not but they were a slave state and didn't stop being one until after the war, though of all the border states their loyalty to the Union was easily the most reliable. Just hit me as kinda funny that you'd chose an actual slave state to say, "now if these cats had been further south, they'd have been a slaves state!"
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Jun 26, 2015 00:31
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Jun 26, 2015 01:03
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More White Noise posted:This flag is NOT racist! NEVER has been! NEVER will be! OP you are hella dumb it's racist as gently caress. I mean Yada Yada cornerstone speech not even the official flag revived by the Klan honestly I'm phoning this in, because lol if your head is so far up your rear end you're arguing that flag is not racist on history of all the grounds. And if youre trolling good job trolling d and D with history, what a puppet master.
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Jun 26, 2015 01:06
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