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And absolutely nothing of value was lost.
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Jun 24, 2015 20:28
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let me tell you what culture is. those savages in the street, they arent culture. they dont breathe culture. a culture could revolution right next to them and what would they even know?? nothing. culture is russian filmmaking. culture is a long walk on the beach. culture is seeing the sights in paris, sipping on a cup of freshly made coffee. where is the culture in games? games has no culture. it has not spent the money on the art, and the artists, and the ccreatives. this is the fault of the george w bush administration.
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Jun 24, 2015 20:31
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 Luckily he can fall back on his starring role in the new season of true detective
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Jun 24, 2015 20:34
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who's going to finish barkley 2 now?
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Jun 24, 2015 20:44
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Arrrthritis posted:who's going to finish barkley 2 now?
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Jun 24, 2015 20:49
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Captain Oblivious posted:Just a tiny fraction of their millions on a few promising artists and boom! Instant global cultural revolution made to order. They don't know how game engines work. Here's the Witcher 3's recommended specs:  And here's Sunset's recommended specs:  Maybe Sunset would've had better financial success if the government gave all customers a $500 GPU so they could play modern art masterpiece Sunset at recommended specs. It's either that or the collapse of civilization as we know it! 
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Jun 24, 2015 20:55
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BexGu posted:Please, as if the plebes could understand my writing. It's like every time these guys open their mouths, it becomes more and more obvious why they shut down.
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Jun 24, 2015 20:57
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BexGu posted:And pay a washing up game journalist 200K to advertise to a non-existing market.
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Jun 24, 2015 21:01
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lol "a $500 video card is recommended but if you just use integrated graphics it should be ok"
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Jun 24, 2015 21:10
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I didn't realize until today that these people made Bientôt l’été, but I don't know why it surprised me.
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Jun 24, 2015 21:19
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Rocketlex posted:I didn't realize until today that these people made Bientôt l’été, but I don't know why it surprised me.
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Jun 24, 2015 21:21
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GreatRedSpirit posted:They don't know how game engines work. Here's the Witcher 3's recommended specs: sure you can run our lovely indie game on an integrated intel chip but you wont understand the video games full majesty without a video card more expensive than a ps4
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Jun 24, 2015 21:26
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 next generation video gaming engine requiring a $1200 custom rig or gmod map running on a pentium d? You decide
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Jun 24, 2015 21:30
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Fojar38 posted:
Is that a city from Pilotwings 64 outside?
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Jun 24, 2015 21:32
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Rocketlex posted:Is that a city from Pilotwings 64 outside? Nah man it's a cityscape from the first edition run of the great unreleased print of the Dionysian style 1927 film Metropolis. Er wait I didn't understand what you were saying because it was too peasantry. Peelotei Troposki 64th edition?
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Jun 24, 2015 22:30
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Fojar38 posted:
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Jun 24, 2015 23:20
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The Derek Smart school of game design. And no, ToT, pretending to not know what Rocky is doesn't make you cool. Captain Oblivious posted:These people don't know how culture works do they It's the usual poo poo that comes with the advent of new art, philosophy, technology...pretty much every human endeavor really. There will always be who claim that the latest new thing is the reason the arts/humanity/culture is going down the drain. I don't know of it's nostalgia or elitism in this case though.
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Jun 25, 2015 01:12
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Meanwhile Pathologic and The Void wind up being infinitely more valid as "art" games (If that term actually has any value) without even trying. Icepick Lodge just make games the best they can and they turn out to be creative and weird enough to have artistic merit without seeming overly pretentious about the whole thing. ToT made their poo poo with a "This will only appeal to HIGHER INTELLECTS" attitude which is total bullshit considering they weren't smart enough to pull off any of their efforts decently on a technical level, never mind the dumb heavy-handed themes and messages they presented in their interactive experiences. It's all incredibly superficial and paper thin. It doesn't help either that the ToT duo are incredibly unlikable and seem to revel in their assumed superiority while remaining entirely inept. Despite the backlash the games might receive for being the darlings of the "art game" genre, Pathologic, The Void, Gone Home and Dear Esther (maybe even to some degree The Stanley Parable) are all proof that art games can exist, be profitable and well-liked. What makes these games work so well is that the people who made them are super humble and passionate, the messages the games put forward are generally vague enough to allow room for discussion and interpretation, and they actually work as games. It's amazing ToT managed to put out so many different attempts without learning any lessons from thier contemporaries. Songbearer fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 02:17
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Songbearer posted:Despite the backlash the games might receive for being the darlings of the "art game" genre, Pathologic, The Void, Gone Home and Dear Esther (maybe even to some degree The Stanley Parable) are all proof that art games can exist, be profitable and well-liked. Knock Knock did make some money, at least 
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Jun 25, 2015 02:24
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So basically Tale of Tales closed not because they made games in an unprofitable genre, but because they made stupid lovely games.
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Jun 25, 2015 02:27
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I liked Tale of Tales and I'm sad they're gone. I don't like the personalities behind ToT, though. Say what you will, but The Graveyard, The Path and Fatale were pretty cool to me.
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Jun 25, 2015 02:28
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Songbearer posted:Meanwhile Pathologic and The Void wind up being infinitely more valid as "art" games (If that term actually has any value) without even trying. Icepick Lodge just make games the best they can and they turn out to be creative and weird enough to have artistic merit without seeming overly pretentious about the whole thing. This. One of my favorite indie games is Yume Nikki, so let it not be said I can't enjoy a good abstract walking simulator. ToT's games just haven't been good overall. I think the main issue is that the duo at the core of ToT just...aren't game designers. Everything I see out of them shows a serious disdain for game design as a craft. They have no idea what they're doing when it comes to crafting interactive systems and just assume they know better without understanding the rules they're breaking. Having gone to film school, they remind me a lot of that guy in screenwriting class who immediately bristles when you start talking about three-act structure. Before the lesson has even started, he raises his hand and says "B-but...you don't have to do that! What if your screenplay didn't do that? What if you had an idea that didn't fit?" Trust me, any time any kind of formal structure is introduced in a creative space, there's always that guy who has to put up his hand and say "But that's not a real rule! That's just something someone made up! I don't have to do it!" By the end of the year he's either sat himself down and puzzled out why these structures help you build engagement...or dropped out to make independent films no one will watch or care about. The ToT people feel like that guy but with game design. They looked at how games worked and, without even understanding what they were looking at, decided to express their creativity by breaking what they perceived to be "the rules." When people don't bite, they assume it's because they took people too far out of their comfort zone and not...y'know...because they bored people and failed to establish any connection, which is usually what actually happens when you freestyle a structure you don't understand. Rocketlex fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 02:57
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I can't really blame them for failing to create good games with unconventional methods. It definitely isn't an easy thing to do, and I respect those that attempt to do it anyways. However blaming the audience for not seeing your genius is a load of garbage; the games you made just weren't good. Own up to it rather than pretending there was some hidden merit to them. The stupid part is they acknowledge artistic games that manage to be unconventional and still sell well (Papers Please), yet still think they can write off the problem as being with gamers rather than their own work.Arrrthritis posted:who's going to finish barkley 2 now? I thought that game was supposed to come out ages ago. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 03:05
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I said come in! posted:So basically Tale of Tales closed not because they made games in an unprofitable genre, but because they made stupid lovely games.
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Jun 25, 2015 03:06
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The three act That Guy example is pretty good, and it seems to serve to doubly cut you with games and taking that kind of "but I don't wanna" attitude. The basis of a game is not to sit you down and give you some meaningful message or an engaging story; it's to entertain you in some interactive manner. Games CAN give you a message and an engaging story, and lots of games demonstrably do, but the whole point of a video game is to press the buttons and have fun. Using Yume Nikki as an example, it's spawned an entire host of homages and theories and fanworks, excellent ones. But at its heart, it still allows itself to be a GAME. You get collectibles, these collectibles are useable and interact with the environment in various fun little ways, and allow you to explore other levels or do bonus things. Gaming 101 right there, dog simple. If you're not at least making something entertaining first within a genre that is by nature interactive and meant to be played, why in the world would you think any message or grand artistic statement you're making is going to get through or be cared about? Lay the foundation for the house before you invite people to go trampling through it, else the floor is going to give out and nobody is going to give a poo poo how fancy the wallpaper is.
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Jun 25, 2015 03:44
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I don't think art games necessarily have to be *entertaining,* but I do think they have to leverage the fact that they're interactive. Tale of Tales' stuff kind of didn't. You just wandered around until you stumbled upon the deep stuff. Compare to Stanley Parable - that game isn't really 'fun' - all of the puzzles are tricks and jokes, the only real interaction you have is the choices you make, but the entire game is about those choices. Stripped down to its mechanics it isn't enjoyable at all, but the writing carries those mechanics and is supported by them. The two interconnect and work together to make the point the game is trying to make. Tale of Tales seemed to loathe video games as a medium, so of course they didn't take advantage of them in any meaningful way. And in that case, why even make games?
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Jun 25, 2015 03:47
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Endorph posted:I don't think art games necessarily have to be *entertaining,* but I do think they have to leverage the fact that they're interactive. Tale of Tales' stuff kind of didn't. You just wandered around until you stumbled upon the deep stuff. Compare to Stanley Parable - that game isn't really 'fun' - all of the puzzles are tricks and jokes, the only real interaction you have is the choices you make, but the entire game is about those choices. Stripped down to its mechanics it isn't enjoyable at all, but the writing carries those mechanics and is supported by them. The two interconnect and work together to make the point the game is trying to make. I should clarify that entertaining doesn't have to mean fun. I should have used engaging too. Amnesia sure as gently caress wasn't fun, but it was entertaining and engaging as all get out. But yeah, after you make the core of your work, then layer on the writing or story and then find ways to have it support the mechanics to create an entertaining whole.
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Jun 25, 2015 03:53
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they didn't make a good game so gently caress them
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Jun 25, 2015 03:58
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Cowman posted:they didn't make a good game so gently caress them
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Jun 25, 2015 04:04
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Cowman posted:they didn't make a good game so gently caress them Normally I would feel bad, game development is not easy and they are a small studio. Making a bad game isn't really worth mocking them over. What is worth mocking them over is their lovely attitude towards the whole thing. Saying that it was everyone else's fault and just all around acting like butthurt assholes. This developer wouldn't even have this thread about them if it wasn't for their melt down on Twitter.
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Jun 25, 2015 04:10
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Something about the mixture of proudly wielded pretentiousness and utterly unprofessional conduct just gets under my skin in that weird way that makes me want to spend precious time thinking up the most vicious criticisms and ill-wishes. Goddamn, it doesn't happen often nor is it really worth the waste of breath, but this brand of half-rate sore losers just annoys the living hell out of me, especially when I try to spend so much time laboring over my own works trying to make them something worthwhile. It's like creative littering.
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Jun 25, 2015 04:20
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It's funny they claim to be intellectuals who are very sensitive when they're extremely dumb people who lack any empathy or self awareness.
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Jun 25, 2015 05:28
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Space Bat posted:It's funny they claim to be intellectuals who are very sensitive when they're extremely dumb people who lack any empathy or self awareness. And the sun sets… posted:After the barrage of sad tales about depression caused by indies turning into millionaires overnight, allow us to raise your spirits with a story about the liberating and energizing effects of complete commercial failure.
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Jun 25, 2015 05:43
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lol
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Jun 25, 2015 05:46
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Endorph posted:I don't think art games necessarily have to be *entertaining,* but I do think they have to leverage the fact that they're interactive. Tale of Tales' stuff kind of didn't. You just wandered around until you stumbled upon the deep stuff. Compare to Stanley Parable - that game isn't really 'fun' - all of the puzzles are tricks and jokes, the only real interaction you have is the choices you make, but the entire game is about those choices. Stripped down to its mechanics it isn't enjoyable at all, but the writing carries those mechanics and is supported by them. The two interconnect and work together to make the point the game is trying to make. Yeah. I don't dislike story in video games (I used to be much more obnoxious about that), but I'm primarily interested in the way that your story (and music, and art, and any other "flavor" stuff) interacts with the mechanics. I'm not even necessarily talking about branching-paths narratives here- I'm talking about having stories where the themes are supported by the mechanics- something which requires an understanding of mechanics, and what effect the mechanics will have on the player. This is going to be a strained analogy, but so many game stories are like scoring a suspenseful action scene with, like, a beautiful aria* or something- it's not going to fit, and the fact that it doesn't fit has nothing to do with how good the music is on its own merits. Like, I have a lot of objections on how many "smart" action game storylines (like, say, Max Payne 3, or Bioshock Infinite) work by themselves- but that's honestly besides the point- the real problem is when these stories don't structurally fit the framework they're attached to. If your game framework is a shooter which mechanically rewards the player for shooting people, well, jesus christ, don't give it a narrative where shooting people is bad, because that creates a structrural problem that the world's best script won't solve. This is getting off-topic but I think this happens because, like you say, the developers don't like video games as a medium- or at least, they don't like the mechanical parts of video games, because that's the boring bits. And that's why you get games, both indie artgame, and AAA blockbuster, where the writing and mechanics are two spheres that don't intersect except in the most barely functional ways. *yeah, that's probably been done well somewhere- but that's really besides the point
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Jun 25, 2015 07:27
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I'm really glad Steam introduced refunds so lovely games with no merit get slammed instead of skirting by on impulse buys.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:33
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I'm the only person who liked The Path. I liked what they were trying to do and I liked the imagery and symbolism, especially if you bothered to find the girls' items. I would have actually enjoyed it had it had a run button, but I don't regret buying it when it came out.
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Jun 25, 2015 07:36
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Black August posted:Something about the mixture of proudly wielded pretentiousness and utterly unprofessional conduct just gets under my skin in that weird way that makes me want to spend precious time thinking up the most vicious criticisms and ill-wishes. Goddamn, it doesn't happen often nor is it really worth the waste of breath, but this brand of half-rate sore losers just annoys the living hell out of me, especially when I try to spend so much time laboring over my own works trying to make them something worthwhile. It's like creative littering. bitterness is not an endearing quality
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Jun 25, 2015 07:38
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Didn't one of their Patreons say something along the lines of "teaching you how to hate videogames" or some such pretentious BS like that? Look, I get hating your job, I do, but there's something to be said about staying in it for an extended period of time, quitting it, and then asking people to pay you to talk poo poo about it.
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Jun 25, 2015 08:01
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A. Beaverhausen posted:I'm the only person who liked The Path. I liked what they were trying to do and I liked the imagery and symbolism, especially if you bothered to find the girls' items. I would have actually enjoyed it had it had a run button, but I don't regret buying it when it came out. It was good because Jarboe did the music and no other reason.
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Jun 25, 2015 08:06
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