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Whatever the increased costs due to minimum wage may be, keep in mind that the minimum wage increase is really being paid for by people who buy a lot of fast food, since probably companies are not going to lower their profit percentages. If you believe all of the threads on this forum about food deserts and how it is impossible for poor people to eat healthily, it is poor people who are buying a lot of fast food. So, minimum wage increases aren't really a transfer of wealth from the rich or from businesses like other welfare measures.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:36
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Thanatosian posted:*cough cough* Your links don't actually directly answer the question of what percentage of costs of running a restaurant or retail shop is paying minimum wage employees.
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Aug 5, 2015 19:39
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silence_kit posted:Whatever the increased costs due to minimum wage may be, keep in mind that the minimum wage increase is really being paid for by people who buy a lot of fast food, since probably companies are not going to lower their profit percentages. If you believe all of the threads on this forum about food deserts and how it is impossible for poor people to eat healthily, it is poor people who are buying a lot of fast food. So, minimum wage increases aren't really a transfer of wealth from the rich or from businesses like other welfare measures. silence_kit posted:Your links don't actually directly answer the question of what percentage of costs of running a restaurant or retail shop is paying minimum wage employees. Because that's going to vary tremendously from business to business...? McDonald's is a relatively easy model to use, because it's fairly uniform, and employs a very large number of low-wage employees.
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Aug 5, 2015 20:28
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Still trying to think this all out and come to the right conclusion. Quick question for my studies, how will the minimum wage raise affect small businesses? Will it not hurt them a lot more and let big business overcome them? Also how will it effect farmers that already barely make it to the poverty line and pay up to 40% of their cost to labor. goodness fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 20:36
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goodness posted:Also how will it effect farmers that already barely make it to the poverty line and pay up to 40% of their cost to labor. Despite what your narrative requires I believe, Ma and Pa Kent don't exist anymore, not in any real amount.
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Aug 5, 2015 22:23
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Everblight posted:Farmers already employ Ok you are right about many medium-large using migrant workers, for my example I am talking to someone that lives in an area with a few hundred small time farmers that do not use migrant workers. What can I say to him about the minimum wage increase? (this is an actual person and farmers not a what if). goodness fucked around with this message at 23:39 on Aug 5, 2015 |
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Aug 5, 2015 23:05
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Blackchamber posted:OK buddy you post your link with that info then. Cause I actually searched a while to find a somewhat reputable source (.org gov vs. Yahoo answers etc.). Go ahead and actually show me the numbers that support your statements. You have no idea what the gently caress you are talking about, and can't seem to learn when people break it down into bite size pieces for you to digest. Please, go re-read the posted material. This is Econ 101/running a lemonade stand in your daddy's front yard level poo poo. Everblight posted:Farmers already employ Not to mention that family farms use family labor, and there are already decades old exceptions to minimum wage and overtime laws for family members working in agricultural jobs, livestock workers, and hand-harvesters. http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs12.htm For the ongoing weeping about small businesses, the Fair Labor Standards Act (which mandates minimum wages now) already does not cover businesses who do less than $500k per year in business and are local-only (no interstate commerce), as well as farms that use less than 500 man-days of farm workers a year (your normal 'small family farm'). Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Aug 6, 2015 |
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Aug 6, 2015 02:58
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Liquid Communism posted:You have no idea what the gently caress you are talking about, and can't seem to learn when people break it down into bite size pieces for you to digest. Thank you that is the exact info I needed! For the record I do stand by a livable minimum wage and understand how that not only helps the lower income but the whole country to progress.
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Aug 6, 2015 03:26
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Liquid Communism posted:Prove it. We've had this discussion to death across several threads. The only way an increase in minimum wage will cause any major amount of unemployment is if employers are already employing more people than absolutely necessary at that wage, which means that they are willingly forgoing profit and increasing their costs now. This is simply untrue. For example, let's take a hypothetical restaurant that opens late night. It has two workers costing a total of $160 during the late night shift and earns a gross profit of $100. If the cost of labor suddenly doubles, then the restaurant will have a net loss if it stays open during this period. As a result it reduces operating hours and fires the late night shift. quote:Minimum wage labor is in no way a major portion of the cost of anything, and given the choice of paying slightly more for the necessary labor or going out of business, the vast majority of businesses are going to find somewhere else to make up the couple percentage points of profitability that slightly increased labor costs will consume. Again untrue. 42% of American workers earn less than $15/hr. The $15/hour movement is easy for the layperson to understand and catchy, but it will have all sorts of negative effects. A wage subsidy paid for via an income tax increase will have the same positive effects and none of the negatives. Gamesguy fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Aug 6, 2015 |
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Aug 6, 2015 03:39
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In reality land, restaurant workers you're talking about don't get paid the minimum wage you're talking about anyway. The servers are paid $2.13 an hour and expect tips, and the back room staff is paid under the table. This is how it works in most restaurants that are in the dire straits you're talking about, unsure whether they can afford to pay 2 workers.
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Aug 6, 2015 03:48
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signalnoise posted:In reality land, restaurant workers you're talking about don't get paid the minimum wage you're talking about anyway. The servers are paid $2.13 an hour and expect tips, and the back room staff is paid under the table. This is how it works in most restaurants that are in the dire straits you're talking about, unsure whether they can afford to pay 2 workers. I've worked under the table at marginal restaurants like that, I still got paid the minimum wage. Not paying the minimum wage is a good way to get into huge trouble with the government. You're also completely missing the point of my post.
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Aug 6, 2015 03:56
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Gamesguy posted:I've worked under the table at marginal restaurants like that, I still got paid the minimum wage. Not paying the minimum wage is a good way to get into huge trouble with the government. You're also completely missing the point of my post. Yeah I'm sure they care about getting into huge trouble with the government when they're employing undocumented workers. Also you are missing the reality of the situation. If you are employing 2 workers at a restaurant and you don't have the business acumen to make it profitable at the times you want it to, you're probably a sucker of an owner who is working the restaurant by yourself, and when you do that the cost of wages is zero for that particular employee. Lucky you with getting paid minimum wage. Very nice owners.
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Aug 6, 2015 04:01
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Gamesguy posted:If the cost of labor suddenly doubles This is not going to happen.
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Aug 6, 2015 04:06
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Serious question, would communism be better?
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Aug 6, 2015 07:01
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Gamesguy posted:This is simply untrue. For example, let's take a hypothetical restaurant that opens late night. It has two workers costing a total of $160 during the late night shift and earns a gross profit of $100. If the cost of labor suddenly doubles, then the restaurant will have a net loss if it stays open during this period. As a result it reduces operating hours and fires the late night shift. And? If a restaurant is in such a fragile financial position that it cannot absorb $15 per hour of cost to pay those two workers the higher wages, with the literal years of lead up that any min wage increase will have to be staged in, then it is already in such dire straights that the first real problem like a cooler going down or the power being out all day and not being able to serve lunch is going to ruin them. This is why 90% of all restaurants don't make it past year 2. It sucks but such is the food business. Places close, new places open every six months like clockwork. Even assuming they pass on the full cost of the increased labor to their customers, labor cost in a properly managed restaurant is ~15% of gross. That would mean a 50 cent increase on a four dollar burger, which is chump change, especially when you consider that their primary customers now have literally double the disposable income that they previously did.
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Aug 6, 2015 07:30
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Liquid Communism posted:And? Having a marginal shift become unprofitable isn't a sign of a failing restaurant - successful restaurants aren't open 24/7.
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Aug 6, 2015 12:17
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junidog posted:Having a marginal shift become unprofitable isn't a sign of a failing restaurant - successful restaurants aren't open 24/7. This is an excellent point. The current wage system allows many businesses to be open at times where there is a loss. If the business would focus on profitable hours everyone would win.
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Aug 6, 2015 13:30
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Holy poo poo I've never seen a thread with so many arguments based on tied together handwaved hypotheticals pulled out of an rear end like a loving magicians rope
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Aug 6, 2015 14:02
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Thanatosian posted:Middle-class people also buy from fast food places, and you can pay for increases in costs from places other than increases in price. I'd be surprised if the increased labor costs did not directly pass through to lead to increases in price. Where else is the money going to come from in a fast-food restaurant? I don't doubt that minimum wage workers will overall be better off, but it probably will mostly be paid for by consumers of fast food, who are mostly poor and middle-class people. It is not a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor.
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Aug 7, 2015 20:24
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silence_kit posted:I'd be surprised if the increased labor costs did not directly pass through to lead to increases in price. Where else is the money going to come from in a fast-food restaurant? https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rel....3-percent.html Your Big mac would cost ~.20 more. If that breaks you then you should not be eating fast food.
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Aug 7, 2015 20:52
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goodness posted:https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rel....3-percent.html I would much rather the poor live in absolute destitution than pay $0.20 more for my Big Mac, tyvm
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Aug 7, 2015 21:04
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goodness posted:https://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/rel....3-percent.html I got into this argument with a local nut who claimed a Big Mac would cost $20 each. http://www.businessinsider.com/what-a-walmart-wage-hike-would-cost-you-2013-7 And if Walmart raised their minimum wage to $12.50, it would cost 46 cents per shopper per visit.
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Aug 7, 2015 23:25
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Mister Kingdom posted:I got into this argument with a local nut who claimed a Big Mac would cost $20 each. 0.46 cents?!?!? Noooooooo!!!
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Aug 8, 2015 08:37
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silence_kit posted:I don't doubt that minimum wage workers will overall be better off, but it probably will mostly be paid for by consumers of fast food, who are mostly poor and middle-class people. It is not a transfer of wealth from the rich to the poor. As above, labour costs aren't as high a percentage of costs as most people think. And everyone who make statements like these seems to be comparing the higher cost against the current minimum wage instead of the new wage.
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Aug 8, 2015 09:01
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Mister Kingdom posted:I got into this argument with a local nut who claimed a Big Mac would cost $20 each. i can't afford it
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Aug 8, 2015 21:00
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This entire thread makes me sad, there seems to be a chasm of reality between tired, beat down scrubs and empathy free randian everymen who got education & connections & have no idea how lucky they are.
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Aug 9, 2015 05:15
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froward posted:This entire thread makes me sad, there seems to be a chasm of reality between tired, beat down scrubs and empathy free randian everymen who got education & connections & have no idea how lucky they are. b-but, i come from a difficult background and made my way up in the system! therefore the government should not help anyone out whatsoever
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Aug 9, 2015 06:51
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froward posted:This entire thread makes me sad, there seems to be a chasm of reality between tired, beat down scrubs and empathy free randian everymen who got education & connections & have no idea how lucky they are.
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Aug 9, 2015 08:51
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Liquid Communism posted:It sucks but such is the food business. Places close, new places open every six months like clockwork. Even assuming they pass on the full cost of the increased labor to their customers, labor cost in a properly managed restaurant is ~15% of gross. That would mean a 50 cent increase on a four dollar burger, which is chump change, especially when you consider that their primary customers now have literally double the disposable income that they previously did. The standard on labor costs is 30% of sales, not 15%.
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Aug 9, 2015 20:07
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Liquid Communism posted:Prove it. We've had this discussion to death across several threads. The only way an increase in minimum wage will cause any major amount of unemployment is if employers are already employing more people than absolutely necessary at that wage, which means that they are willingly forgoing profit and increasing their costs now. Fast food restaurants are already dumping a lot of money into automation, as is any company with a large unskilled workforce. Focusing on min. wage is really stupid given what's around the corner with automation. There's also basically 0 studies on what large min. wage increases do, because they pretty much never happen on a large scale. Some people think they can extrapolate the effects of small increases, but that's really incredibly stupid. People who think 15 / hr nationwide wouldn't have huge effects are clueless to the issues involved. silence_kit posted:Whatever the increased costs due to minimum wage may be, keep in mind that the minimum wage increase is really being paid for by people who buy a lot of fast food, since probably companies are not going to lower their profit percentages. If you believe all of the threads on this forum about food deserts and how it is impossible for poor people to eat healthily, it is poor people who are buying a lot of fast food. So, minimum wage increases aren't really a transfer of wealth from the rich or from businesses like other welfare measures. Food deserts don't actually exist fyi, this has been shown statistically and in other ways as well. Gamesguy posted:This is simply untrue. For example, let's take a hypothetical restaurant that opens late night. It has two workers costing a total of $160 during the late night shift and earns a gross profit of $100. If the cost of labor suddenly doubles, then the restaurant will have a net loss if it stays open during this period. As a result it reduces operating hours and fires the late night shift. Yep, people should be focusing on mincome if they had a clue. froward posted:This entire thread makes me sad, there seems to be a chasm of reality between tired, beat down scrubs and empathy free randian everymen who got education & connections & have no idea how lucky they are. Rethinking that liberal arts degree are we? tsa fucked around with this message at 20:22 on Aug 9, 2015 |
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Aug 9, 2015 20:18
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Mincome will not happen, everyone who complains about possible minimum wage increases would complain twice as much about a mincome. Doing nothing with minimum wage while trying to push a mincome will result in neither happening.
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Aug 9, 2015 21:58
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I've lived in the LA metro area all my life, so I'm accustomed to seeing twenty-somethings or Hispanic women work in food services or other minwage jobs all my life. A buddy of mine purchased a house east of Long Beach, along the Orange Curtain, and everyone in minwage positions there are blond Aryan teens. It's a real interesting shift. So the solution is to elect conservative republicans everywhere. The jobs will return to their rightful pimple - blessed overlords.
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Aug 9, 2015 22:28
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froward posted:This entire thread makes me sad, there seems to be a chasm of reality between tired, beat down scrubs and empathy free randian everymen who got education & connections & have no idea how lucky they are. This is extremely true in modern America. My mom remarried to a monied broker so I mercifully only experienced the working class hell for a temporary period where I ran away from home and lived with a friend, but I do come from a broken, dysfunctional family. Most of my friends, likewise, but with no money to save them-and a lot of them are trapped with little or no savings or means to save. Talking to people, not even necessarily well-to-do people, who came out of high school well-adjusted, motivated, and with connections and resumé-worthy life experiences, it seems they really fundamentally can't get what it's like to just sort of get shat out at 18 and told you're an adult now, go make it. People assume that their circumstances are the default and that if other people failed to make as much of themselves, it's because they messed up somewhere. I vividly remember some rear end in a top hat telling my undergrad friend she should just start her own business. "Why, I only needed $200 to start my landscaping business in college." This guy really didn't get that he was able to do that because he had a truck daddy taught him to drive, years of experience doing yard work with daddy, loads of hand-me-down equipment, money saved up because his family allowed to keep money from his after-school-job instead of putting it towards bills, therefore allowing him to stop working for the period it took to establish his business, in an area where a bunch of people he had known for years lived, an area where people will pay money for luxury poo poo like yard work... The idea that not everyone would have a roughly equivalent pool of non-monetary resources to draw from was totally foreign. The idea that he was actually much better off than my friend, despite them ostensibly having the same amount of money, was offensive.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:29
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vintagepurple posted:I vividly remember some rear end in a top hat telling my undergrad friend she should just start her own business. I absolutely hate that so many people's stock answer to other people's money problems is, "Start a business!," like it's just so easy. Or like everyone has the acumen and desire to go into business for themselves. Or that there wouldn't be much of a labor force to work for everyone's start-up if everyone's trying to get their own business off the ground. Or that it's hosed up to expect someone working on, say, a nursing degree, to simultaneously start and run a successful business. My job is to process applications for social services, so I get to see how much money people make, and it's disgusting. Nobody is being paid enough for the work they do. $11.70 an hour if you're a certified nursing assistant--that's just shameful.
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Aug 10, 2015 02:26
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Welcome to the modern America. Wages for the working classes have been stagnant for 35 years now, while productivity has more than doubled, and the income of the top 1% has risen. Of course nobody's getting paid what they're worth. http://www.epi.org/publication/charting-wage-stagnation/
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Aug 12, 2015 08:14
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There is no magical limit where the wage is so high that everyone is replaced by robots. If that was the case why isn't everything fully automated in countries with higher minimum wages? If it was cheap and easy to get rid of workers in favour of automated systems they would have already done it. Hopefully in the future when it is easier and cheaper we'll have ways to use that increased productivity in order to provide for the huge amount of people in manufacturing and service jobs that will be unemployable instead of just having those profits go to capital owners and basically creating a caste system. But that's not something that's going to happen by mandating the sort of living wage that most first world countries already have without collapsing. Also no one is arguing doubling wages overnight so that argument is also dumb.
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Aug 13, 2015 08:41
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Thelonius Van Funk posted:There is no magical limit where the wage is so high that everyone is replaced by robots. If that was the case why isn't everything fully automated in countries with higher minimum wages? If it was cheap and easy to get rid of workers in favour of automated systems they would have already done it. Hopefully in the future when it is easier and cheaper we'll have ways to use that increased productivity in order to provide for the huge amount of people in manufacturing and service jobs that will be unemployable instead of just having those profits go to capital owners and basically creating a caste system. But that's not something that's going to happen by mandating the sort of living wage that most first world countries already have without collapsing. Also no one is arguing doubling wages overnight so that argument is also dumb. Most first world countries do not have a $15 minimum wage
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Aug 13, 2015 12:14
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Series DD Funding posted:Most first world countries do not have a $15 minimum wage Most first world countries have a social safety net that allows you to get by without it
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Aug 13, 2015 13:03
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Series DD Funding posted:Most first world countries do not have a $15 minimum wage Actually in the time frame for which a $15 MW would be introduced, i.e. post-2020, a great deal of comparable first world countries will have a similar or better minimum wage. Some already have committed to increases, or are close to $15 even now, and inflation will mean that gets closer every year. Not only that, but these countries traditionally have a far lower level of pay than in the US, so the MW is comparatively more radical, in relation to median pay.
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Aug 13, 2015 13:22
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Series DD Funding posted:Most first world countries do not have a $15 minimum wage Literally every other first-world country has universal healthcare.
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Aug 13, 2015 18:57
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