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In the wake of the mass murder of black parishioners at a Methodist Church in South Carolina, investigations into the perpetrator revealed a deep and violent hatred of minorities, with a particular focus on black people. It was swiftly, and most likely correctly determined that the attack was racially motivated. On his website, "thelastrhodesian.com", and his facebook page, the shooter posed with and represented the flags of Rhodesia and apartheid-era South Africa, and the Civil War era battle flag of Tennessee, more commonly known as the "Confederate Flag." On Thursday, June 18, the Supreme Court of the United States ruled that the State of Texas does not violate the 1st Amendment by disallowing the printing of license plates with the Confederate Flag on them. On Monday, June 22, South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley, a Republican, called Monday on state lawmakers to take down the Confederate flag from the State grounds. Tuesday, July 23, Statues of Confederate Generals are defaced at the University of Texas, in Austin. Officials from State and municipal offices around the country, including Baltimore and New Orleans, call for the further removal/renaming of landmarks bearing reference to Civil War figures. Walmart, Amazon, Sears, Target and eBay all announce the pulling of sales of the Confederate Flag from their stores. Today, its likely a foregone conclusion that the Battle Flag of the Tennessee Army will be scoured from public view, and other icons of Civil War era Southern history will be censored as people begin petitioning to rename parks, remove statues, cover plaques and paint over murals. I think the real question is this: Should we be more concerned about the removal of the Confederate Flag, or more concerned with how quick and easy it was? Should we allow every debate to be solved by declaring whoever calls the other side a racist, "the winner"? Should we do or not do whatever it takes to avoid "racism"?
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Jun 25, 2015 15:01
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blarzgh posted:
When the flag is unquestionably the banner signifying support for a literal Slavers' Rebellion, yes.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:11
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quote:I think the real question is this: Should we be more concerned about the removal of the Confederate Flag, or more concerned with how quick and easy it was? Should we allow every debate to be solved by declaring whoever calls the other side a racist, "the winner"? Should we do or not do whatever it takes to avoid "racism"? I don't think we should be concerned about the removal or how easy it was. We should allow debates on racism to be settled by outing racists. We shouldn't try to avoid racism, only correct it when it's brought to light.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:12
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Removing the Confederate flag from everywhere doesn't solve racism but it's easy for politicians to show they are doing SOMETHING about it by removing them.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:18
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poemdexter posted:Removing the Confederate flag from everywhere doesn't solve racism but it's easy for politicians to show they are doing SOMETHING about it by removing them. It solves the racism involved in flying the Confederate flag, which when you consider what the Confederacy declared to be the grounds for their secession, turns out to be quite a lot of racism.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:20
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The Oldest Man posted:It solves the racism involved in flying the Confederate flag, which when you consider what the Confederacy declared to be the grounds for their secession, turns out to be quite a lot of racism. It's a step in the right direction of course. It puts a certain amount of shame on people who fly it proudly. My tinfoil hat tells me the RNC sent out a memo telling everyone to go ahead and take it down to avoid looking like racists.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:28
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They should be taken down and sent overseas as emergency blankets, both ironic and practical given that flags tend to be pretty hard wearing.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:30
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blarzgh posted:I think the real question is this: Should we be more concerned about the removal of the Confederate Flag, or more concerned with how quick and easy it was? Should we allow every debate to be solved by declaring whoever calls the other side a racist, "the winner"? Should we do or not do whatever it takes to avoid "racism"? People have been calling Confederate sympathizers racists for 150 years and the racists happily went on flying the flag. The rapid disappearance of the Confederate flag has nothing to do with debate or political correctness and everything to do with the actions of a single racially motivated mass murderer discrediting it as a symbol.
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Jun 25, 2015 15:51
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CARL MARK FORCE IV posted:When the flag is unquestionably the banner signifying support for a literal Slavers' Rebellion, yes. So what if its questionable? If there is any doubt as to the 'one true meaning' of a symbol, then is it no longer OK to censor that symbol? Does it make a difference if that symbol is being censored by the government, or by the people?
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Jun 25, 2015 16:58
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SlipUp posted:I don't think we should be concerned about the removal or how easy it was. We should allow debates on racism to be settled by outing racists. We shouldn't try to avoid racism, only correct it when it's brought to light. Who gets to 'out' the racists? Who gets to decide who 'is racist', and bring them to light?
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Jun 25, 2015 16:59
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I have a simple answer. Burn all flags and act as a citizen of the world. blarzgh posted:Does it make a difference if that symbol is being censored by the government, or by the people? Yes.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:00
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People have been trying to get the Confederate flag removed for a long time. It hasn't been either quick or easy.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:04
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poemdexter posted:Removing the Confederate flag from everywhere doesn't solve racism but it's easy for politicians to show they are doing SOMETHING about it by removing them. It makes it more difficult for racists to signal their presence to one another. That means people will be less certain about the prevalence of their views and therefore more uncertain about how those around them will react if they express those views, even if they're only implicitly racist. Racists would likely be bolder about their racism amongst a sea of Confederate symbols than without them. The lack of certainty that anyone is with them should slow the propagation of racist memes, at least overtly, and at least those associated with Confederate ancestor worship. VideoTapir fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jun 25, 2015 |
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Jun 25, 2015 17:05
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The removal of the flag from public spaces is good because it is a symbol of the subjugation and terrorisation of African Americans, OP.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:10
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Does it matter that in South Carolina, the Confederate flag was only raised on the statehouse in like 1962 as a response to the civil rights movement? Because to me that makes taking it down more like the state government deciding to stop sending a message it had been sending pretty intentionally.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:12
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Not flying the flag is a good thing but the statues and stuff should stay, just change the plaque to "loving remember these assholes, because it wasn' that long ago" Part of the trouble with burying it is that people forget what happened and why.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:17
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OwlFancier posted:Not flying the flag is a good thing but the statues and stuff should stay, just change the plaque to "loving remember these assholes, because it wasn' that long ago" Having the statues doesn't seem to have helped with that though, particularly with the why.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:18
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The Warszawa posted:Having the statues doesn't seem to have helped with that though, particularly with the why. Not if they're treated as honoured heroes of the republic, no. But taking the same statue, and saying "this rear end in a top hat fought to protect slavery, and then some other rear end in a top hat thought he was so great for doing so they cast him in bronze and stuck him in a park" might be prudent. The glorification of slavers is also abhorrent, and should be remembered. To  the thread it's kind of like you should keep all the footage from Hitler's speeches because it's important to remember that yes, within living memory there were hundreds of thousands of people who thought this was a Good Idea.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:21
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OwlFancier posted:To Yeah, and they should be played in history classes and museums, not projected 24/7 on a public building or in a park.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:29
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Yes, people still believe in that "Lost Cause" bullshit despite there being numerous literature and historiography about how it was clear as loving day in many speeches and documents that the secession was about slavery.blarzgh posted:Who gets to 'out' the racists? Who gets to decide who 'is racist', and bring them to light? I would understand this better if there hasn't been a rather large body of literature and documentation about how the flag was actually about hate and not heritage.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:29
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Do the Germans have thousands of streets / parks / statues of WW2-era Nazis? How about people like Rommel who participated exceptionally for the losing effort and are generally remembered as above the fray of the evil racist politics of that era?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:30
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Florida Betty posted:People have been trying to get the Confederate flag removed for a long time. It hasn't been either quick or easy. This. I'm quite shocked at how this has all been playing out, but it seems that in the choice between guns and racism it was easier to talk about racism this time. Having grown up surrounded by lost cause poo poo, I'm honestly surprised at how fast things are turning and a bit skeptical that it'll continue. I think it's been helped this time by how bullshit the excuses for using the confederate flag were in the first place being dragged out into the sun for exposure. But it'll be great if we can start dropping lost cause revisionism from public places and stop encouraging them. That poo poo has been toxic since reconstruction, and should have been stamped out a century ago. But reconstruction failed, so we've been fighting this poo poo over and over since then.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:31
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blackguy32 posted:I would understand this better if there hasn't been a rather large body of literature and documentation about how the flag was actually about hate and not heritage. MrChupon posted:How about people like Rommel who participated exceptionally for the losing effort and are generally remembered as above the fray of the evil racist politics of that era?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:33
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Lemming posted:Yeah, and they should be played in history classes and museums, not projected 24/7 on a public building or in a park. I dunno, we have war memorials in the center most towns where I live to remember how loving stupid the first world war was. Some things bear repeating.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:36
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Is there any danger in boiling every person, historic event, place, or group down to a single defining feature, and then judging its merits and whether it should be remembered, honored, or acknowledged on that basis alone? John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin all owned slaves - should we tear down their monuments, too? Che Guevara wrote disparagingly about the inferiority of the black race when he was young - should we burn his shirts? Woody Allen and Roman Polanski are pedophiles - should Amazon take down their films?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:37
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blarzgh posted:John Hancock, Thomas Jefferson, George Washington and Benjamin Franklin all owned slaves - should we tear down their monuments, too? The US could do with worshipping those four a bit less, yes.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:38
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blarzgh posted:
Sure, why not?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:40
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blarzgh posted:Is there any danger in boiling every person, historic event, place, or group down to a single defining feature, and then judging its merits and whether it should be remembered, honored, or acknowledged on that basis alone? What's your opinion on that? Do you have one or is this more of a "Who watches the Watchmen" type of thread.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:40
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blarzgh posted:Is there any danger in boiling every person, historic event, place, or group down to a single defining feature, and then judging its merits and whether it should be remembered, honored, or acknowledged on that basis alone? Not tear their monuments down but that's a valid thing to bring up when someone's jerking off about how the founders wanted all men to be free and equal sure. Also yea Che wasn't a good dude in a lot of ways, maybe a bunch of white 'communists' shouldn't be wearing him on a shirt. Woody Allen and Polanski being kid rapists doesn't affect their films but yea those dudes should probably be in jail or something. On that, the confederacy shouldn't be expunged from all records as if it never existed, but at the same time we don't have to pretend they were a valid movement that had goals beyond 'we wanna own them blacks'.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:41
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blarzgh posted:Is there any danger in boiling every person, historic event, place, or group down to a single defining feature, and then judging its merits and whether it should be remembered, honored, or acknowledged on that basis alone? Were any of those people used as symbols by a group of people who were domestic terrorists who would routinely engage in ritualistic murder that was condoned, if not supported, by local governments? If so, yes, we should tear down their monuments and burn t-shirts and remove their films. It's almost like symbols can suddenly become bad because of the imagery they evoke! Solid pearl-clutching though, I, nay, SOCIETY truly appreciates you looking out for us in this time of need for clarity over whether one of the most iconic and recognizable symbols of white supremacy is bad.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:44
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Burning a flag is the recommended method for flag disposal so I would say flying a confederate flag is worse by all measures
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Jun 25, 2015 17:47
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MrChupon posted:Do the Germans have thousands of streets / parks / statues of WW2-era Nazis? How about people like Rommel who participated exceptionally for the losing effort and are generally remembered as above the fray of the evil racist politics of that era? The Nazis have something similar in the "Clean Hands" view of the war, which wasn't actually formulated until after the war by people who wanted to kind of distance people from the atrocities the German army committed.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:48
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blarzgh posted:Is there any danger in boiling every person, historic event, place, or group down to a single defining feature, and then judging its merits and whether it should be remembered, honored, or acknowledged on that basis alone? Sure, why not? Che repented, right?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:51
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Spun Dog posted:What's your opinion on that? Do you have one or is this more of a "Who watches the Watchmen" type of thread. My opinion is that its bad to treat people and history like legos, where you can just throw out the pieces you don't like; that death of the loyal dissent and tolerance of ideas(even awful ones) is really bad for us. hallebarrysoetoro posted:Were any of those people used as symbols by a group of people who were domestic terrorists who would routinely engage in ritualistic murder that was condoned, if not supported, by local governments? There are countries in the middle east who would say, "yes."
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Jun 25, 2015 17:52
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Blarzgh, is the issue that state-sponsored uses of the Confederate flag will be ceased or is there a genuine concern that the flag will be totally redacted from history?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:55
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blarzgh posted:My opinion is that its bad to treat people and history like legos, where you can just throw out the pieces you don't like; that death of the loyal dissent and tolerance of ideas(even awful ones) is really bad for us. I never knew Legos were so loving racist. Do you have a problem with our government refusing to display and maintain a pro-slavery symbol?
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Jun 25, 2015 17:55
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2DnmObuK4E
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Jun 25, 2015 17:56
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blarzgh posted:My opinion is that its bad to treat people and history like legos, where you can just throw out the pieces you don't like; that death of the loyal dissent and tolerance of ideas(even awful ones) is really bad for us. But the history still remains? In fact new history will be written to explain why the flag was taken down much like history is being written that maybe the confederacy wasn't actually really about States' rights.
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Jun 25, 2015 17:58
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Tatum Girlparts posted:but at the same time we don't have to pretend they were a valid movement that had goals beyond 'we wanna own them blacks'. validity is probably determined by the winner of the conflict, but to say they had no other objectives is exactly the sort of black and white (pun intended) view of history that I think is bad. Its sort of an acknowledgement that, "Choosing the Right Beliefs" is more important to society than "Understanding History."
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Jun 25, 2015 17:58
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Spun Dog posted:I never knew Legos were so loving racist. 
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Jun 25, 2015 17:58
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