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gradenko_2000 posted:I don't think the South would have agreed to that though? It would have been the same as the North's position of only freedmen being counted for representation/taxation.  The other way of doing it would be if they really want to be able to keep people as livestock that badly, then all other livestock gets counted.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:10
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mugrim posted:Putting in a system that gives greater representation to areas that own slaves is effectively not only condoning slavery, but empowering it. Slavery was inherently constitutional as a result. I think the Confederate flag is inherently racists, but don't pretend the Constitution is a shining beacon of liberty when it expressly empowered CDs that had slaves. True enough, but fudging a compromise on slavery to get the South to sigh on to the constitution isn't the same thing as literally saying in writing that your #1 motivation for the whole thing is the preservation and expansion of slavery. Which is literally what the secessionists did. Plus you've got to give a black comedy LOL to the "States Rights" crowd when the Confederate constitution explicitly TOOK AWAY the right of states to restrict slavery anywhere, ever, no matter what.
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Jul 6, 2015 14:12
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There's no way the South would have agreed to that. It would have given states an incentive to expand the franchise to get more power, which of course the wealthy landowner class of the South would have decried as a dangerous plot to destroy the government in favor of mob rule and anarchy. Personally, I think we should amend the constitution to make representation contingent on the number of residents in a state who voted in the last two national elections, give the states a reason to improve access to the voting booth for a change instead of letting them benefit by suppressing the vote.
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Jul 6, 2015 15:09
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gradenko_2000 posted:The slave-holding states wanted their slaves to be counted as whole persons, so that they would have more control of the government via more seats and more electoral votes. By compromising they made it constitutional and empowered slave holding districts. They not only expressly approved but also built it into the bones of the country, there is no way around that truth. Clearly the confederacy is worse, but the founders had little issue with legalized slavery.
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Jul 6, 2015 16:32
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mugrim posted:By compromising they made it constitutional and empowered slave holding districts. They not only expressly approved but also built it into the bones of the country, there is no way around that truth. Jefferson predicted the Country would split over Slavery. They were all kinda hypocritical in their proclamations but a lot of then understood that, based on the way they had written the Constitution and had set out certain ideas of liberty, eventually the idea that it must apply to everyone to be valid would take root with people and cause a schism with those who rejected the idea. It's not so black and white that we can say they all hated slavery, certainly not, but it is more nuanced than you give it credit for.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:06
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Jefferson predicted the Country would split over Slavery. They were all kinda hypocritical in their proclamations but a lot of then understood that, based on the way they had written the Constitution and had set out certain ideas of liberty, eventually the idea that it must apply to everyone to be valid would take root with people and cause a schism with those who rejected the idea. I think he was shaking on his deathbed over the Missouri Compromise, and saw that what many Northerners viewed as a sacred contract could not hold as the country expanded westward. He also regretted putting forth a prototype to nullification, if I recall correctly.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:08
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There are obviously valid criticisms of the symbolism of the American flag, and concerns about whether centuries of slavery and genocide have made it an irrevocably tainted and exclusionary symbol of white supremacy. But the concern-trolling by confederates is worthless: no matter how irredeemable the Union flag may be, the answer will never be "so let's just go ahead and fly the flag of explicit white supremacy and slavery". The principles of the Declaration of Independence are at least nominally universal and can be applied to preserve the dignity and liberty and equality of all persons even if we haven't ever actually done that. The Confederates openly rejected those principles, said any conception of equality between humans is a mistake, and pledged themselves to white supremacy. That's pretty loving bad. Sure, if you want, let's do a South Africa and make a new US flag and scrub all symbolism of European dominance from all official symbols, I am on board with that. But confederates who started a war that killed half a million Americans over the right to own people like property can shut the hell up about "oh well Maryland had slaves too, take that Lincoln" and "well the North is just as bad otherwise they would have invaded us earlier and stamped out our hideous and inhuman society, makes u think doesn't it"
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Jul 6, 2015 17:08
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When u think about it all work is a form of slavery, so a government flying the klanflag is no big deal and you are incorrect to be mad about it. Also there are starving children in Africa, did you know
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Jul 6, 2015 17:25
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mugrim posted:By compromising they made it constitutional and empowered slave holding districts. They not only expressly approved but also built it into the bones of the country, there is no way around that truth. I don't disagree that slavery was also enshrined into the US Constitution, but FWIW the argument when made by those who would defend the CSA flag is some kind of gotcha: if we can't have our flag, then you shouldn't either! Personally, I don't really consider that as a "threat". Yeah, there's a whole bunch of unsavory poo poo that the US flag is associated with, and if all the weight of it overshadows all the good that the country has done to the point where it needs to be replaced, then yeah, let's go do that, but those that would defend the Confederacy are not so much interested in having a frank discussion of the legacy of the United States as a whole than they are in taking their ball and going home.
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Jul 6, 2015 17:30
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:When u think about it all work is a form of slavery, so a government flying the klanflag is no big deal and you are incorrect to be mad about it. Also there are starving children in Africa, did you know 
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Jul 6, 2015 22:30
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The US flag is the flag of a major modern extant industrialized nation with many flaws and historical achievements, whereas the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia/ Confederate Naval Jack is the banner of a slaver's revolt. These two things are only similar in that they are lengths of cloth that contain the colors red, white, and blue.
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Jul 6, 2015 22:40
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oldswitcheroo posted:The US flag is the flag of a major modern extant industrialized nation with many flaws and historical achievements, whereas the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia/ Confederate Naval Jack is the banner of a slaver's revolt. These two things are only similar in that they are lengths of cloth that contain the colors red, white, and blue. While I agree with what you say, the deification of the founders is a more widespread and pronounced issue than the deification of the confederacy.
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Jul 8, 2015 00:09
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mugrim posted:While I agree with what you say, the deification of the founders is a more widespread and pronounced issue than the deification of the confederacy. It's dumb as hell but it isn't particularly harmful or worth doing anything about, since the end effect is just people cherry-picking vague quotes to make Franklin and Washington agree with whatever dumb modern opinions they have and the founders stand for really nothing in the public psyche beyond FREEDOM. Folks tend to elide the whole 3/5 compromise slaveholdy bits of Revolutionary history completely unless they're explicitly trying to discredit the founders, not use them to claim that's a core national value Nobody's lynching English symps or tipping shipping crates full of tea into the harbor in 2015. People are still attacking black people and campaigning for the dissolution of the republic for the Confederacy.
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Jul 8, 2015 01:02
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's dumb as hell but it isn't particularly harmful or worth doing anything about, since the end effect is just people cherry-picking vague quotes to make Franklin and Washington agree with whatever dumb modern opinions they have and the founders stand for really nothing in the public psyche beyond FREEDOM. Folks tend to elide the whole 3/5 compromise slaveholdy bits of Revolutionary history completely unless they're explicitly trying to discredit the founders, not use them to claim that's a core national value Exactly. The false equivalency being drawn between the two is frankly dumb as gently caress.
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Jul 8, 2015 01:08
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sean10mm posted:Exactly. The false equivalency being drawn between the two is frankly dumb as gently caress. The only moral flag is my flag?
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Jul 8, 2015 01:12
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Smoothrich posted:The only moral flag is my flag? It's almost like context matters. 
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Jul 8, 2015 01:28
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Pohl posted:It's almost like context matters.  Wrong flag guys..
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Jul 8, 2015 01:35
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VitalSigns posted:There are obviously valid criticisms of the symbolism of the American flag, and concerns about whether centuries of slavery and genocide have made it an irrevocably tainted and exclusionary symbol of white supremacy. This flag defeated the evil of slavery, and should always be flown. It is the flag of freedom; it is the flag of responsibility in an irresponsible and populist world.
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Jul 8, 2015 01:46
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My Imaginary GF posted:This flag defeated the evil of slavery, and should always be flown. It is the flag of freedom; it is the flag of responsibility in an irresponsible and populist world.  you're becoming my favorite DaD poster
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Jul 8, 2015 02:31
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:
It is the flag that brought the Jubilee. If this flag ain't yours, neither is the Jubilee.
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Jul 8, 2015 02:44
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:It's dumb as hell but it isn't particularly harmful or worth doing anything about, since the end effect is just people cherry-picking vague quotes to make Franklin and Washington agree with whatever dumb modern opinions they have and the founders stand for really nothing in the public psyche beyond FREEDOM. Folks tend to elide the whole 3/5 compromise slaveholdy bits of Revolutionary history completely unless they're explicitly trying to discredit the founders, not use them to claim that's a core national value Just to be clear, you are claiming confederate nationalism is more responsible for deaths in 2015 than American nationalism? I feel like I'm misunderstanding you.
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Jul 8, 2015 03:22
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"American nationalism" isn't the founders cult broseph There is, of course, nothing of Confederate nationalism that is not hagiography for its glorious history and founding ideals of racial inequity, because the Confederacy hasn't loving existed since 1865
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Jul 8, 2015 03:36
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like I feel like for everyone else this is a thread about marginalizing a hate group that's subsisted for generations on its iconography and mythos going unchallenged outside liberal enclaves, and you really want it to be about Bree Newsome stepping on your balls and calling you a naughty American imperialist instead. Nobody's going to stop trying to bomb the Middle East into becoming the Rotary Club of Cleveland because there's not a picture of George Washington on the quarter anymore, those guys actually tend to find the Constitution worship poo poo an annoying impediment to be worked around, but kids might not shoot up a black church if everyone around them isn't telling them it was when the darkies got rights that everything really started going to hell
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:03 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 03:45
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:like I feel like for everyone else this is a thread about marginalizing a hate group that's subsisted for generations on its iconography and mythos going unchallenged outside liberal enclaves, and you really want it to be about Bree Newsome stepping on your balls and calling you a naughty American imperialist instead. Nobody's going to stop trying to bomb the Middle East into becoming the Rotary Club of Cleveland because there's not a picture of George Washington on the quarter anymore, those guys actually tend to find the Constitution worship poo poo an annoying impediment to be worked around, but kids might not shoot up a black church if everyone around them isn't telling them it was when the darkies got rights that everything really started going to hell Why the gently caress do you want to remove George W from the quarter? Everything went to hell when we lost our way and the big city machines died.
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Jul 8, 2015 04:15
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because he's taking up space that in a just world would belong to Bootsy Collins, but that's a separate issue
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Jul 8, 2015 05:07
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My Imaginary GF posted:This flag defeated the evil of slavery, and should always be flown. It is the flag of freedom; it is the flag of responsibility in an irresponsible and populist world. But nobody's talking about the British flag, the greatest symbol of civilization ever to exist???
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Jul 8, 2015 15:45
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:because he's taking up space that in a just world would belong to Bootsy Collins, but that's a separate issue Bootsy Collins ain't dead yet man.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:03
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mugrim posted:While I agree with what you say, the deification of the founders is a more widespread and pronounced issue than the deification of the confederacy. ...It's about half and half where I come from. http://www.sunherald.com/2015/07/06/6309928/jeppie-barbour-we-wont-be-bossed.html edit; have some fun quotes! Some Baptist Preacher from the Sticks posted:
League of the South Georgia Co Chair William Flowers posted:
Former Governor Haley Barbour's brother Jeppie, Mayor of Yazoo City, MS 1968-72 posted:
oldswitcheroo fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Jul 8, 2015 |
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Jul 8, 2015 16:05
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Nintendo Kid posted:Bootsy Collins ain't dead yet man. Neither was Salmon P Chase when he got to be on a whole mess of US currency.
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Jul 8, 2015 16:10
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VitalSigns posted:Neither was Salmon P Chase when he got to be on a whole mess of US currency. Which is precisely why it's illegal to be on money while you're alive, dingus.
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Jul 8, 2015 18:13
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Sunlight is the best disinfectant. I'm happy that individuals are free to display the Stars and Bars, because it tells me instantly that they are shitheads with whom I have no desire to associate, other than to abuse them. That flag has absolutely no business being displayed in conjunction with any level of government though.
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Jul 8, 2015 19:56
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Nintendo Kid posted:Which is precisely why it's illegal to be on money while you're alive, dingus. Is it really? That's hilarious.
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Jul 9, 2015 01:15
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VitalSigns posted:Is it really? That's hilarious. Yes, his self-promotion led to his image being stricken from paper money and it being illegal to put anyone living on. He was doing it, essentially, as part of a plan to build name recognition for becoming president in the future. Funnily enough, long after he died his portrait was put on $10,000 bills that were issued for exchanging large sums of money between banks.
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Jul 9, 2015 01:37
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:like I feel like for everyone else this is a thread about marginalizing a hate group that's subsisted for generations on its iconography and mythos going unchallenged outside liberal enclaves, and you really want it to be about Bree Newsome stepping on your balls and calling you a naughty American imperialist instead. Nobody's going to stop trying to bomb the Middle East into becoming the Rotary Club of Cleveland because there's not a picture of George Washington on the quarter anymore, those guys actually tend to find the Constitution worship poo poo an annoying impediment to be worked around, but kids might not shoot up a black church if everyone around them isn't telling them it was when the darkies got rights that everything really started going to hell Fair enough, I muddied the waters by talking about the founders specifically. I should have been more general and addressed nationalism.
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Jul 9, 2015 02:05
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I think I've come up with a compromise How about South Carolina gets to fly their stars and bars, while the USPTO grants the NAACP a trademark over the logo? Then the purchase of confederate regalia will go to benefit civil rights for african americans. Who would oppose this?
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Jul 9, 2015 02:26
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mugrim posted:Fair enough, I muddied the waters by talking about the founders specifically. I should have been more general and addressed nationalism. Take away the Confederate flag and Lost Cause rhetoric, and nothing remains of the Confederacy but some dates in a history book and some sad dudes who feel that in the absence of anything else at all special about them they should get VIP treatment for successfully being born with pink skin. Take away the American flag and the Clash of Civilizations and the democratic peace and George Washington chopping down the cherry tree and every other ideological myth about America, and America remains. The point of targeting Confederate iconography isn't that it's bad, or that this is easier than rounding up all the wicked racists and putting them in camps and we're all lazy; it's that propaganda is the best and only tool the white nationalists got to exert their power and perpetuate their existence and in the US the Confederacy is pretty much the one standard they can peddle openly. The United States, on the other hand, has quite a lot of bombs and guns and a standing government and a vast economy and virtually uncontested dominion over the whole of the Earth, and some strong material motivations to behave as it does that most Americans innately recognize no matter how many Chinese-made Che shirts they own. Reagan and Clinton and Bush and Obama all had very different perspectives on what America means, and when push came to shove their regimes behaved pretty similarly re: all the important killing-people bits. Social opprobrium is kind of a dumb and ineffectual slacktivist tool to levy against an actual empire, as I recall that was pretty notably tried during the Iraq war and America just kinda shrugged and kept on doin' what it wanted to do because the moral support of the world amounted to a few hundred tribute soldiers from its most significant allies. Start shutting down airbases or blockading trade and you're cooking with gas, but funny enough nobody even wants to talk too loud about that
A Wizard of Goatse fucked around with this message at 08:04 on Jul 9, 2015 |
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Jul 9, 2015 07:50
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My Imaginary GF posted:I think I've come up with a compromise 
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Jul 10, 2015 00:19
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Here's a really good article about the flag and the South by Patterson Hood: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/09/magazine/the-souths-heritage-is-so-much-more-than-a-flag.html quote:First off, I love the Southland.
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Jul 10, 2015 08:43
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Sheng-ji Yang posted:Here's a really good article about the flag and the South by Patterson Hood: DBT are A-OK, although I still think that song that's just an extended lecture on how George Wallace wasn't a racist just an amoral political opportunist while the rest of the band kinda poke at their instruments in the background is fucken wierd
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Jul 10, 2015 09:34
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:DBT are A-OK, although I still think that song that's just an extended lecture on how George Wallace wasn't a racist just an amoral political opportunist while the rest of the band kinda poke at their instruments in the background is fucken wierd Southern Rock Opera is my least favorite of their albums, yeah. Their first two albums are the best (despite having the worst album covers of all time), followed by Decoration Day and the Dirty South.
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Jul 10, 2015 09:39
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