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Mel Mudkiper posted:Are you seriously reducing yourself to attacking my avatar? And your handle! Mel Mudkiper posted:Here is what I found. Show me where she says it should never be done. Don't try to play interpretive tweet grab-rear end with me. You seem to be arguing with me as if I'm attacking Sarkeesian when I'm actually stating areas in which she and I diverge, which I find exceptionally annoying. It's like you're deliberately misreading my posts to find something you can argue about, and if it's all the same to you, I'd like it if you stopped. I'm not even accusing her of loving "censorship," because I know what the word means.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:30
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Mel Mudkiper posted:How so? Critics point out issues with narratives and themes all the time. It doesn't mean they are demanding the wholesale extinction on their usage. People don't tend to call specific instances of a thing as 'embarrassing' without some implication that they want the thing to stop being done.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:30
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Wanderer posted:Might've been. I should probably take the time to refresh my memory on her videos if I'm going to be talking about them. I just remember her making the case that the "damseling" thing happens super often and how that was weird. Yeah, that bothered me too. Overall her videos were underwhelming cause they were either pretty obvious 101 type stuff or really simplistic, as you said. That made sense cause she was aiming at newcomers, not people that had encountered feminist critiques. It would be interesting to see if she could make some serious critiques of a one or two games, though.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:31
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Germstore posted:That's an awfully razor thin distinction. If you're looking for justification to paint Sarkeesian as an Enemy of Art, I suppose it would be.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:31
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Wanderer posted:Really, my takeaway point from most of Sarkeesian's videos has always been an issue that I knew existed before she made the scene: writing in games, plot and dialogue and characterization If people who hate her would separate it this way when watching her, they would easily aknowledge how bad game writing is, since those analysis don't touch the gameplay itself. If they do it's just barely, or to point something about the writing. For example, if someone redid the entire writing and characterization of Bayonetta, but left the gameplay intact I would (and I'm probably not the only one) still love the game, because it's fun to play, and the only thing misogynistic characters are doing there is substracting merit from an otherwise amazing work of interactive media. wiregrind fucked around with this message at 02:39 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 02:31
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Plom Bar posted:If you're looking for justification to paint Sarkeesian as an Enemy of Art, I suppose it would be. Or perhaps just as a haver-of-bad-opinions.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:32
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Wanderer posted:Don't try to play interpretive tweet grab-rear end with me. You seem to be arguing with me as if I'm attacking Sarkeesian when I'm actually stating areas in which she and I diverge, which I find exceptionally annoying. It's like you're deliberately misreading my posts to find something you can argue about, and if it's all the same to you, I'd like it if you stopped. I'm not accusing you of attacking Sarkeesian. I am telling you that your impression of her perspective is inaccurate and that your diverting opinions are not as distant as you think they are.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:33
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Germstore posted:Or perhaps just as a haver-of-bad-opinions. To borrow a catchphrase from today's youth, where is the lie in those tweets?
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Jul 11, 2015 02:34
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Germstore posted:People don't tend to call specific instances of a thing as 'embarrassing' without some implication that they want the thing to stop being done. Or maybe just used less? Or more reasonably? Or with better justification? To immediate assume she is calling for the wholesale banning of a narrative based on calling the repeated use of it "embarrassing" is a stretch. If she wanted to say it should be banned she would have said "this should be banned."
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Jul 11, 2015 02:36
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Plom Bar posted:To borrow a catchphrase from today's youth, where is the lie in those tweets? The operative word is 'opinions'. You will notice I have not said her tweets should be banned, just that she should be embarrassed by them
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Jul 11, 2015 02:37
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Germstore posted:The operative word is 'opinions'. You will notice I have not said her tweets should be banned, just that she should be embarrassed by them Right. And I'm asking you why. Why should she be embarrassed by them? What is so wrong about them, divorced from your belief that she's actively calling for the banning of the trope?
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Jul 11, 2015 02:39
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wiregrind posted:This is really accurate, as this is specifically what she focuses on, not the games themselves... But the flaws in their writing and narrative. Games writing's weird because it's wholly unlike any other kind of script. If you ever get the chance to see a game script, check it out; it's usually a really big Excel spreadsheet full of "if X, then Y," sometimes in multiple languages. As such, I cut it a lot of slack because we're still very much in a learning pattern, and it has gotten dramatically better in the last few years as more people show up who have experience with it or studios hire writers from other media to come in and do the job. The biggest problem is the bizarre games-writing feedback loop: people think games writing is bound to suck, so developers don't put a lot of thought into it, so they don't hire people who are good at it, so the games writing sucks, which convinces people that games writing is bound to suck... wiregrind posted:For example, if someone redid the entire writing and characterization of Bayonetta, but left the gameplay intact I would (and I'm probably not the only one) still love the game, because it's fun to play, and the misogynistic characters only substract from an otherwise amazing work of interactive media. I wouldn't call Bayonetta misogynistic so much as having weaponized her own sexualization. Misogyny's a frequently misused term, to my mind. I've not played many games where I thought to myself, holy poo poo, somebody at this studio has a serious problem with women. I've certainly played a lot of games where the studio in question was clearly staffed by a bunch of dudes who were all firmly in touch with their inner 13-year-olds, though. Plom Bar posted:If you're looking for justification to paint Sarkeesian as an Enemy of Art, I suppose it would be. I really hope you're not talking about me.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:40
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Like, it's actually a huge leap between "I don't like this thing, here's why" and "no one should ever make this thing because I say so".
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Jul 11, 2015 02:41
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Wanderer posted:Misogyny's a frequently misused term, to my mind. I've not played many games where I thought to myself, holy poo poo, somebody at this studio has a serious problem with women. Misogyny doesn't necessarily have to imply the explicit conscious hatred of women though. Same way that saying behavior is racist doesn't mean the person who does it is automatically a Klan member. People will good intentions can still produce misogynistic media.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:42
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Plom Bar posted:Right. And I'm asking you why. Why should she be embarrassed by them? What is so wrong about them, divorced from your belief that she's actively calling for the banning of the trope? I haven't said at any point that she is trying to ban anything so I guess congrats on winning an argument that I wasn't participating in.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:43
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Germstore posted:I haven't said at any point that she is trying to ban anything so I guess congrats on winning an argument that I wasn't participating in. Germstore posted:People don't tend to call specific instances of a thing as 'embarrassing' without some implication that they want the thing to stop being done.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:44
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You can want something to stop happening without wanting to impose a ban on it.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:45
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Wow. How is wanting people to stop doing a thing the same as calling for its ban? I can also draw razor thing distinctions.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:45
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Wanderer posted:Buy a cheap GameCube or Wii and get the Legend port. It adds more content and fixes a couple of things, like the stupidly high encounter rate. Isn't it like 100 bux?
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Jul 11, 2015 02:45
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Misogyny doesn't necessarily have to imply the explicit conscious hatred of women though. Same way that saying behavior is racist doesn't mean the person who does it is automatically a Klan member. I'm aware of that. I'm saying that I don't consider objectification or sexualization to be inherently misogynistic. They're problems in their own ways. Watch_Dogs, for example, is a game I'd feel reasonably comfortable about calling misogynistic. The human trafficking plot goes nowhere and is apparently there specifically so you can have an entire room full of expressionless, topless women. Clara screws up everything she does after you find out she's a woman, Nikki spends half the game kidnapped, and Poppy might as well not be in the game at all.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:46
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Uncle Wemus posted:Isn't it like 100 bux? Huh. So it is. You know, I'd forgotten how rare that disc is. I'd still say that it's worth the $55-65 on eBay if you really wanted to play it, but yeah, that's more money than I thought it'd be.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:48
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Wanderer posted:I'm aware of that. I'm saying that I don't consider objectification or sexualization to be inherently misogynistic. They're problems in their own ways. Yeah. I agree with this.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:48
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Wanderer posted:I'm aware of that. I'm saying that I don't consider objectification or sexualization to be inherently misogynistic. They're problems in their own ways. Fair enough, I can see how sexualization might not be, but I think its hard to claim objectification in particular is not misogynistic. Objectification is the removal of a woman's personal agency and reducing her to an object meant for the pleasure of men. If that is not misogynistic, very few things are. Germstore posted:Wow. How is wanting people to stop doing a thing the same as calling for its ban? So this was all a set-up to be deliberately petulant then? Fair enough.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:48
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Germstore posted:Wow. How is wanting people to stop doing a thing the same as calling for its ban? Fine. Ignore that last clause, then. What about the opinions expressed in those tweets is so wrong?
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Jul 11, 2015 02:51
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Fair enough, I can see how sexualization might not be, but I think its hard to claim objectification in particular is not misogynistic. Objectification is the removal of a woman's personal agency and reducing her to an object meant for the pleasure of men. If that is not misogynistic, very few things are. I accepted your distinction, but when my argument requires the exact same distinction you don't accept it?
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Jul 11, 2015 02:51
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Plom Bar posted:Fine. Ignore that last clause, then. What about the opinions expressed in those tweets is so wrong? That having a man rescue a woman is not intrinsically embarrassing.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:52
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Mel Mudkiper posted:Fair enough, I can see how sexualization might not be, but I think its hard to claim objectification in particular is not misogynistic. Objectification is the removal of a woman's personal agency and reducing her to an object meant for the pleasure of men. If that is not misogynistic, very few things are. I'm actually gonna backtrack a bit on that one because I just realized I was treating objectification and sexualization as if they were basically the same thing. Characters as sex furniture is usually at least creepy, yeah. At best, it's juvenile; nobody told you to set this scene in one of those clubs where the decor involves people dancing in cages.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:54
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Germstore posted:I accepted your distinction, but when my argument requires the exact same distinction you don't accept it? "This should be stopped" and "This should be banned" are synonymous. "This is embarrassing" and "this should never be done" are not. You are either deliberately trying to muddy the distinction between "embarassing" and "should be stopped" or genuinely do not see the gap between their intentions.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:54
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how about this: video games are juvenile poo poo for manchildren and are very often sexist and misogynistic
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Jul 11, 2015 02:56
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Mel Mudkiper posted:"This should be stopped" and "This should be banned" are synonymous. "This is embarrassing" and "this should never be done" are not. You are either deliberately trying to muddy the distinction between "embarassing" and "should be stopped" or genuinely do not see the gap between their intentions. "You should stop doing this" and "you should be stopped from doing this" are different things.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:57
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wiregrind posted:This is really accurate, as this is specifically what she focuses on: Not the games themselves... But the flaws in their writing and narrative. Would you remove the camp from drag queens?
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Jul 11, 2015 02:59
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Germstore posted:"You should stop doing this" and "you should be stopped from doing this" are different things. Fair enough.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:59
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Wanderer posted:I wouldn't call Bayonetta misogynistic so much as having weaponized her own sexualization. Judge each aspect of the media with it's own measurement. Bad gameplay with good writing can have it's merits as a game too. I think it's important to think about demeaning writing in games, discuss the problem and change it. And it's also really important to think whether the gameplay in said game is really good or not. After all, the objective is to have better games, right? icantfindaname posted:how about this: video games are juvenile poo poo for manchildren and are very often sexist and misogynistic wiregrind fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Jul 11, 2015 |
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Jul 11, 2015 03:02
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Uncle Wemus posted:Would you remove the camp from drag queens? ....yes, actually.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:02
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Plom Bar posted:....yes, actually. Speaking of an enemy of art.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:06
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Wanderer posted:I wouldn't call Bayonetta misogynistic so much as having weaponized her own sexualization. I take considerable amount of issue with this viewpoint as well, actually. Created things do not have agency outside of their creator's whims. A writer/character designer can create a character that has agency within the universe they inhabit, but at the end of the day the character serves the needs and desires of the creator above all else. "I created this sexy librarian whose superpowers are to turn her hair, that is also her clothes, into hellbeasts to defeat her enemies, so that she literally has to remove her clothing to win fights " is...really reminiscent of the last panel of Kate Beaton's Strong Female Characters comic. She weaponized her sexualization because her creator had such in mind when creating her. And I will postface this by saying that I absolutely adore both games.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:10
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Plom Bar posted:....yes, actually. No more 'La Cage Aux Follies'? gently caress that noise. wiregrind posted:I think it's important to think about demeaning writing in games, discuss the problem and change it. And it's also really important to think whether the gameplay in said game is really good or not. After all, the objective is to have better games, right? Demeaning writing is bad writing and games need to start caring more about that. If the writing in games starts being better, everything will improve, including diversity.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:13
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Dapper Dan posted:Demeaning writing is bad writing and games need to start caring more about that. If the writing in games starts being better, everything will improve, including diversity. On a completely unrelated note the writer for Watch_Dogs is very pro gamergate
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Jul 11, 2015 03:14
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Would I be wrong in assuming that GGers basically want all game reviewers to be Dave Halverson as far as the eye can see? Or am I reading them wrong?
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Jul 11, 2015 03:14
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That always seemed like such an odd complaint but I'm not sure why. Bayonetta isn't exactly Hamlet, but it doesn't seem right to trash her on assumptions about the creator even if she is goofy and unrealistic. She's pretty good compared to most Japanese female characters; never submissive or incompetent, always in complete control of herself, doesn't swoon over men.
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Jul 11, 2015 03:18
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