Rainbow Unicorn posted:Video games aren't that important in the scheme of things and also this entire drama was silly as hell but otoh a bunch of actual women were actually driven out of their homes via tactics that would be punishable by prison time if only law enforcement took things that originate on the internet seriously. So idk, I get where people are coming from when they are dismissive of this entire situation because it's stupid as hell, but also, I'm a woman who plays games and occasionally creates a half finished pile of poo poo that could maybe one day be an okay indie game if I had an attention span longer than an average goldfish's, and part of why I don't pursue it more heavily is because a part of me thinks "oh well if I ever finished something and had to market it there's a non-zero chance hateful people would find my personal info and make my life a living hell." So I do other safer things instead, which is fine, but how many potentially cool games aren't being made because of this? who knows. Law enforcement isn't there to protect people, so doing so would require the kind of radical alterations to society the sort of freaks who jabber about "identity politics" are incapable of supporting.
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Jun 26, 2015 14:58
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In Training posted:Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain is going to be the best game ever made. Hell, this is the first good post in this thread. Black Baby Goku posted:So now it's about the police won't help privileged white women with 4chan trolls? That's identity politics you're using there.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:00
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Rainbow Unicorn posted:I guess that's true but I wish it wasn't. I've read a lot since gamergate started about how even stalking and harassment that doesn't originate online is treated kind of flippantly like "oh well we can't do anything unless you are actually hurt/murdered" and it makes me really angry actually, but I have no idea how you'd fix it or anything either. Realistically, you could fix this easily by demilitarizing the police and ending the surveillance state that makes stalking etc. acceptable socially. Of course, then you have to hold off the forces that militarized the police and created the expectation that you were being watched at all times, but there's at least a roadmap. Black Baby Goku posted:Attempted murder is now getting the cops called on you. This forum is sane. You're more likely to die from police than from allergies, in these United States.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:06
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XMNN posted:I don't think stalking is socially acceptable. It is as long as you're solely interested in harassing people. Once it shades over into something that's blatantly criminal, it's something that the police will care about, maybe, but if you just restrict yourself to harassing people over the phone and the internet and the mail, nobody really cares about stopping you, and the youngest people care least of all. EDIT: This is because we live in a world where you are being stalked constantly, and everyone knows that. In order to end it, you need to rework the social order.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:08
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Of course, the spear-carriers, the sort of people who call all dissenters insane, eventually get hosed by the system too. They get pulled into bureaucratic nightmares, get harassed by a cop, etc. But it's doubtful if they ever will recognize that there's any kind of problem beyond the existence of disagreement. So totalitarianism is a perpetual threat that any society must guard from.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:13
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:My impression is it has to do with more people caring about feminism as it relates to their hobbies more than anything else. My impression is that people are more likely to encounter feminism when it intersects with something they already know about, thanks to thirty years or so of propaganda from the radical right and their useful idiots like BBG.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:20
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Archer666 posted:It's hosed up, but also not really a problem. Set up a idealized facebook/twitter page for the companies and a more personal facebook/twitter for friends. With privacy settings you can easily manage who gets to see what. There's still a risk of getting your picture backtracked to you, I'll admit that. But I wholeheartedly believe that if you're extremely careful, you have nothing to fear when it comes to getting doxxed. The basic assumptions about human behavior on display here are astounding, as is the belief that existence should consist of carefully siloed identities from here to eternity.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:33
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BexGu posted:That doesn't answer anything. Give specific examples that you have a problem with. Hell take a current game you are playing. What is the purpose of this question? To deny that sexism exists in video games, gaming culture, the United States, the world? Sephiroth_IRA posted:Wouldn't you rather change their minds if they're as bad as you think? Actually, I would rather the sort of person who cares about this not exist at all, rather than being reoriented to be a idiocy factory for a better cause. So in lieu of them getting the necessary psychotherapy...
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Jun 26, 2015 15:35
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The most interesting thing about this is that the radical right actually believes some of the things it says. Witness, for example, people using their status as a minority to attempt to destroy all opposition.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:42
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Powercrazy posted:Actually no. It's not the relationship between a "developer" and a "journalist," its the non-disclosure. Since being good friends with someone is obviously going to color your review of their product. That's really it, and one of the many good things that has come from gamergate, beyond the hilarity of people melting down about it, is that many sites now have disclosures as part of their review process. Personally, I would not consider the expansion of the surveillance state to be a good thing.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:48
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Archer666 posted:Normally I enjoy it when guys stick things into my mouth, but I never said that you need to make endless identities for yourself. Just a private one, and a business one. Which isn't that strange, I think? That's not what I said. Please re-read it. I said that what you were saying is that people should maintain siloed identities for the rest of human history, since there is no way to avoid the need for it. Powercrazy posted:Agreed. But I think you may be posting in the wrong thread, friend Surveillance is bad even when private individuals are doing it, because "the state" is not some sort of magical entity distinct from the people that constitute it. Furthermore, the belief that having relationships with other people is a corrupting influence is gigantically evil and your support of it is sickening.
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Jun 26, 2015 15:51
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Powercrazy posted:Cute little strawman you've built there, but seriously don't do it again. That is exactly what you said. That it is necessary to disclose personal relationships because they are a corrupting influence on "objectivity". This in turn suggests that human relationships are inherently corrupt, conflates human contact with the buying of reviews that goes on overtly and covertly, and which everyone knew was going on before they decided to come down on the evil left-wingers, and concludes that trust is impossible. In short, you've never, ever thought about what slips from your lips unceasingly.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:00
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I said come in! posted:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but it's all about context. Bayonetta makes her outfit and behavior her own, it's clearly shown to not be in the service of others. This is why it's not sexist. Clothing by itself has nothing to do with sexism. Hmm, well, I don't think it works quite like that. I know you want it to, because it allows one right answer and the rest wrong, but it's just not real. It's an insane way to look at the world.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:02
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I said come in! posted:Again, it's about nuance and context. The fact that it's a fictional character isn't relevant. Yeah, it is actually. The character "Bayonetta" does not make decisions, they are programmed into the media she features in. Saying that her outfits are an attack on body-shaming and slutshaming and all that is meaningless, because those are done by women deciding how they dress, which Bayonetta does not do. Furthermore, the presence of particular characters with better justifications for hypersexuality doesn't change the fact that media creates these impossible images and broadcasts them constantly. Bayonetta is present even if you never play either of her games, just like the many, many other characters that feature similar hypersexuality.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:09
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Fabricated posted:it was really boring in lf and its really boring here Who do you think I am, exactly? I need to know how hard I should be laughing.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:09
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The only fun part of discussing sexism in media is that you can get this massive circle going where people can justify literally every single female character's design in, say, fighting games, but never get to the part of asking why you basically have a choice between sexualized and hypersexualized characters.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:21
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:Isn't that more because sexuality is different for everyone? Not really. Even if someone rejects the hourglass figure that's the current ideal in the US, most of Europe, and Japan, they still understand that to be sexy. And that's what virtually every female character in fighting games, barring literal children, has, along with a revealing costume that highlights sexuality. Even a character like Sakura that's on the low end of this scale still gets bigger boobs and a wider midriff when translated to merchandise.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:31
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unlimited shrimp posted:Not disagreeing with you, but what would a non-problematic female character look like in a genre as highly stylized as fighting games? There is no such thing. Assuming you meant "what are the other options available", you could always design characters that don't have sexualized costumes, have figures that aren't improbable hourglasses, etc. because these things are not necessary for good character design. See, for example, in SSF2T alone, how you have body types as diverse as T. Hawk, E. Honda, Dhalsim, and Zangief- but only for men.
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Jun 26, 2015 16:55
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I'm glad that people are willing to be racist as long as it comes to defending the sanctity of history by reassuring everyone that Negroes did not penetrate Europe until the last two hundred years.InsanityIsCrazy posted:I think there was a bout of claiming big girl designs was some form of fatshaming, but there's been so much discussion of negative body types and costume designs that its all sort of background noise now. Would you mind rephrasing your posts, because when I try to read them as they are right now, I find myself involuntarily putting a gun to my head after the second word.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:01
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I said come in! posted:lmao, what? I assume at this point you're just having a go at people and messing around. Zangief's muscle-bound figure is pretty distinct visually from Ryu/Ken/Fei Long/Guile/Bison's figures.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:02
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Spinning Robo posted:Could any game character in any game actually be empowering, if any choice of design or personality can be waved away with "well it's not the character deciding that"? Yes, but not in the ways people usually present them as empowering. Or you can make characters that the player has a lot of role in designing and giving personality, which can be empowering in that way. I said come in! posted:Except by your own argument earlier, this isn't valid because it's a fictional character. So according to you it only applies to male characters? Don't use words like "argument" when you're plainly too stupid to know what they mean. Also, that's not what I argued. In fact, these are facets of the same argument, but it is as beyond you as geometry is beyond a gecko. Shadoer posted:Yes because it's way better to just make up poo poo about history to make us feel better? Actually, there were black people in Europe in the Middle Ages, so saying that there absolutely were none in Bohemia at any point is an example of racism or ignorance. But beyond the factual level, the emphasis on historical accuracy when it comes to making all-white environments, sexist environments, etc. is plainly a consequence of bigotry. Also, calling the Turkish-made video game "Mount and Blade" "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better" because it has black NPCs in its thinly-veiled fantasy medieval Europe is grotesque.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:11
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Bholder posted:Remember kids, sex is bad and only men enjoy the female form. Nobody is going to come to your house and delete your spank bank of Mai Shiranui hentee, and nobody would take "Chun-Li has enormous boobs and gigantic thighs to appeal to lesbians" seriously if it weren't a way to justify the male gaze.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:14
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Nice. gently caress you.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:15
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I said come in! posted:There are female artists that have worked on the Street Fighter games, same for Bayonetta. Amazing, this ability to consistently hire only lesbian and bisexual women (and women who appreciate women's butts "artistically") to design these characters, and this apparent universal love for fighting games among QUILTBAG women. Spinning Robo posted:If I make a woman character in saints row 4 who does nothing but run down the street naked, is that empowering? How is it different from Bayonetta other than that I, personally, said it's empowering? It's empowering if you find it empowering, so it's not empowering at all because you made it up to make a dumbass remark. Because the sorts of things people claim Bayonetta supports are things that are a matter of people's choices and decisions, which SR4 supports in a way that Bayonetta does not. I said come in! posted:You said no fictional characters have agency, you said no diversity can exist among fictional characters because they are made by the artist. You can't say your argument applies to male characters and then decide to have it not apply to female characters as well. I didn't say any of those things, and if this is the level of delusion hellthreaders operate under, it may be the case that only kicking the bucket will prove an effective treatment for their insanity.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:21
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Totalizator posted:So why do these critics want to alter the design and creative choices other people make that they don't like, rather then promoting or funding games that are being made they do like? This entire thing is trying to shame people for enjoying things a small subset of left wing puritans don't approve of and trying to coerce developers to bend to the sensibilities of a loud minority, over the heads of people who like things as they are. Probably because sexism exists because we create it continuously, and eliminating it will mean stopping the creation of it, and because you have a huge persecution complex that only a little lead pill or fifty will cure. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 26, 2015 17:22
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I said come in! posted:"I'm a literal child that can't accept different views of the world." And now you're arguing that treating mental disorders is childish! Will you stop yourself before you start talking about how the Jew is a pestilence on humanity?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:23
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Totalizator posted:I assure you those critics are very sexist, in the traditional sense of the word. I assure you that your conservatism will be swallowed up by the fundamental power of chaos and repurposed into something new. I assure you that nobody said the thing that you talked about in this thread, and probably not ever anywhere. I assure you that the LORD your God is descending with the lightning of his terrible swift sword. Bholder posted:No, it doesn't loving work that way, but thanks for trying. You're supposed to meet effort with effort in this forum. Just saying words to the vague effect of "sexism exists independently of any person, because it's magic" is not enough.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:26
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Spinning Robo posted:If I tell you that Bayonetta was designed by a woman (Mari Shimazaki, lead character designer on 1 and 2), does that change how you feel about her design? I already knew that, because I enjoyed both games. It's not relevant to what I just said. Why there's nobody intelligent yet misguided who cares about this is a mystery for the ages. Shadoer posted:Err you're technically correct there were some.. but those populations existed, in what few numbers they did, largely in the Italian City States (mainly Venice, and Naples), France, the Iberian Peninsula, and some penetration into the Holy Roman Empire but it really depended on the state and even then we are talking about like a very small group of people (like in the realm of 20-100 in any single state, almost certainly merchants)  This is an image of Saint Mauritius, the patron saint of the city of Coburg in Bavaria, Germany. He has been the patron saint of Coburg since the middle ages. He was transformed from an Egyptian man to a black African man in depictions during that time, which happened because people were familiar with the features of black people, in Central Europe, in the Middle Ages, and so could depict them in artwork. Also, whenever a European starts talking about how their racism is so much different from the American kind, I reach for the safety-catch of my pistol. quote:Yes, saying that "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better" equals thinking that having any black character in medieval Europe fantasy is grotesque. You said that having black people in medieval Europe was "making poo poo up about history to make us feel better", so what does that say about games that feature Europe but with the geography and names changed that still include statistically impossible black people?
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Jun 26, 2015 17:35
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Bholder posted:Nah, it was the perfect answer to the "if we destroy imagery that we declare sexist, sexism will be over" argument. Agreed, we should never have outlawed marital rape. Also, sexism is totally subjective as a phenomenon. This, I declare, is the natural end result of the "service economy"- the inability of persons to believe in an outside reality anymore.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:39
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CrashCat posted:It won't ever be "eliminated", but I suspect you know this. Still, the activist voices need to continue to push against it if there will continue to be progress in that direction. What doesn't need to happen is the people who shift the "othering" part of their brain onto this sort of issue. It's no longer cool to call dark skinned people nasty names because of their color, but for some reason it's held as insanely cool and needed to insult anyone who disagrees with one's view on how gross video games are. Not a lot of poo poo gets done when neither side can talk to the "other" without going into paroxysms of overreacting, which seems to be the reason this GG poo poo caught on as much as it did in the first place. It's still as extremely cool to poo poo on other people as in old times, so long as we can trap them into a "gotcha" of our own design instead of their skin color. Yeah, it will be eliminated. Actually, insults are an essential part of human communication. You can only use the word "otherization" once people start getting murked for their support of Gamergate, but I still won't care. Totalizator posted:Describe your ideal world where sexism is solved. The poster with the handle "Totalizator" is dead.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:44
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Spinning Robo posted:Ok I think I understand where you stand on empowered video game characters, which is that they are empowered if specifically you say they are. Thank you for the discussion. There's no such thing as an "empowered video game character:, because they're not real. Meanwhile, people can find Bayonetta empowering, but she does not, as a character, act directly against slutshaming because the player cannot actually decide how she acts or dresses. That was entirely programmed in by Platinum Games. There is no choice there. Liandar posted:You are mistaking "there was a black person in medieval Europe" with "black people were living in Eastern Europe and were a notable minority", which is important when making a historical game, hth. Saint Mauritius lived during the height of the Roman Empire, and was an Egyptian man. The point is that this belief that Europe was a paradise free of Africans in the Middle Ages is blatantly false, because even sculptors in podunk towns knew what black people looked like well enough to depict them.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:49
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Disinterested posted:I'm not sure what you interpret this to mean, but it really just demonstrates that medieval racial attitudes were just radically different to modern racial attitudes - as well as being quite exceptional. I mean, the fact that people could depict black people accurately in Central Europe tells us that they were somewhat familiar with black people, which stands directly in contrast to the idea that black people were so rare it would be anti-historical to have them in a game set in the middle ages in Europe.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:52
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Bholder posted:You know what, you know better, not-hellthread to talk about what's good for women, without any women involved. Amazing, how you can discern sex over the internet. I'm sure that isn't because you think you know what women all believe at all. Shadoer posted:Yes I know. Also the first African Pope was Victor I. I didn't say there was none period, I said the communities were incredibly small and largely traders and merchants. I seem to think that because you have a tiny, dysfunctional brain. This conversation has been about how the evil SJWs are criticizing the poor hardworking Czech guy to make a game that's *gasp* anti-historical! Except that it would not be anti-historical to have a black person in a game set in Medieval Europe. Your arguments have been attempts to get around this fact, because you recognize dimly that it's a bad idea to engage head-on.
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Jun 26, 2015 17:56
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Disinterested posted:Well, it also demonstrates an inability to very adequately differentiate black and middle eastern people, and shows that the primary category for those people was religious. I think to claim that most medieval person knew what a black man looked like is an incredibly spurious claim. You also have to note that the depiction is, by modern standards, somewhat stereotypical at best and gollywoggish at worst. You're also dealing with a more cosmopolitan place in Coburg than, say, Poland. Okay, the argument here, Disinterested, is over whether having black people in Medieval Europe would be contrary to history and make a game anti-historical. What is your opinion on this question?
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Jun 26, 2015 18:02
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Bholder posted:Why are video game stylized and not designed with realism in question? Stylization means big titties, of course. That's all that people ever use it for. I look forward to cracking jokes about how stylized someone is as a pickup line in the future. turnways posted:It wouldn't be anti-historical but it also wouldn't be anti-historical to not include one, either. It's a null point and picking at nits; Polish culture barely saw any people of color and for their art based on their mythology to reflect this is as racist as Japanese mythology failing to depict similar minorities. Right. It says a lot that people's most prominent argument against it is not about forcing people, blah blah blah, if you're left-wing you're a sickopathic cultist blah, but is instead about how Europe was solely white (and Jewish, and Romany, and Turkish, and various ethnicities from central Asia, and) until the last two hundred years.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:05
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natetimm posted:It depends on the region, the time and the setting. Are you aware the game in question hired actual historians (not internet activists) to consult? Okay, so are you willing to outline the exact regions, times, setttings where it would be a crime against history to have a black person in the game, so that I can make them and hopefully give you a fatal heart attack? natetimm posted:If they depicted women in outfits that actually represented professional fighters they would be even more naked and sexualized. Minimal spandex is pretty much the norm in fighting sports, adding that much costume is a cover-up if anything, not a blatant sexualization. If just seeing naked flesh constitutes sexualization to you, you may have a serious sexual dysfunction. Do you get a boner from Botticelli?
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Jun 26, 2015 18:09
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InsanityIsCrazy posted:
There's nothing wrong with saying, on the internet, that you want to murder someone in horrible ways, like the fact that I'm saying that I want to crucify you Roman-style, where you're fed and watered and eventually die from exhaustion and exposure after a matter of weeks, well, that's just on the internet, it's not real. Or it wouldn't be real if I was firmly on the right wing.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:11
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Homicidal leftists. I love 'em!
natetimm posted:SO now it's not even an issue of sexualization any more, it's an issue of taste. "Dont show me a frilly boob, show me a spandex boob, I have refined tastes!" Do you think that the Birth of Venus was meant to give someone a boner? Or every time a Madonna and Child shows Mary nursing, you were meant to spank it to her exposed breast? Disinterested posted:Before the 1500's style era, I think it's not inconsistent historically to have a very limited racial presence in terms of characters, although there is scope for inclusion in the context of city life and port/naval life. But this depends on setting - if you're depicting medieval villages in buttfuck nowhere is different to a medieval royal court, and is different again from, say, Italy or Spain or the Eastern Empire where awareness was much greater. Okay, well I agree that there's nothing wrong with having a game where there aren't any black people that's set in Medieval Europe. 
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Jun 26, 2015 18:14
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natetimm posted:Why do you think camp and video games were designed specifically for masturbation? Is there a hobby you have you would like to share? That's not what I said. I'm starting to suspect that you're angry and mentally handicapped. Unfunny Poster posted:That image is of a video game character designed specifically in that way by a mostly male video game design team, not someone in real life.  Weird. It looks like you're saying something really stupid and condescending. Can you give five reasons why someone shouldn't dome your worthless rear end right now?
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Jun 26, 2015 18:17
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That is exactly what I am doing. None of those posts had effort put into them. I'm sorry you are unable to recognize that.
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Jun 26, 2015 18:21
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