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Grexit has a lot more hope than austerity in the EU.
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Jul 14, 2015 11:33
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Actually Tsipras basically said the same things today that I've been saying about a grexit in this thread, it would be a complete and utter catastrophe:quote:Yannis Palaiologos @yanpal7 3 mins3 minutes ago A grexit right now means no food and no energy, because there would be no money to import basically anything. They even talked with Russia like I guessed (assuming for energy).
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Jul 15, 2015 02:38
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People talked about the Grexit so casually, but part of me wondered if it was even possible in the first place. Guess it really wasn't. I at least admire him for picking the option that was the least worst for the majority of people in his country. So what now? Even if Greece is still in the union, its relationship with everyone else has been so irrecoverably soured. Does that make the Grexit a long term goal instead of something immediately reactionary?
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Jul 15, 2015 05:21
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It's their loving fault for not having reserves why would you not have reserves in this situation jesus christ.
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Jul 15, 2015 05:33
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How long does Greece have before it needs that new IMF loan?
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Jul 15, 2015 06:10
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PerpetualSelf posted:It's their loving fault for not having reserves why would you not have reserves in this situation jesus christ. Well they may have had reserves in the past but those reserves are now ECB reserves.
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Jul 15, 2015 07:19
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Morroque posted:People talked about the Grexit so casually, but part of me wondered if it was even possible in the first place. Guess it really wasn't. I at least admire him for picking the option that was the least worst for the majority of people in his country. From the sounds of it, that would've been accepting the deal that the referendum rejected, rather than putting it to a vote, getting that deal thrown out, realizing they can't actually afford to leave the Eurozone then accepting a worse deal and angering their own population that their vote was ignored - just about the worst way to go about it.
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Jul 15, 2015 08:07
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PerpetualSelf posted:It's their loving fault for not having reserves why would you not have reserves in this situation jesus christ. Given that the debt level has gone from 125% to 175% in the last 5 years, I'm guessing that any currency reserves once present have long been used up.
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Jul 15, 2015 09:31
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Anyone know what the current situation on the ground in Greece is? I assume it's worse in Athens than on the islands, but they can't be too relaxed either. Are Germans advised to avoid the country?
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Jul 15, 2015 20:25
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Mulatto Butts posted:Anyone know what the current situation on the ground in Greece is? I assume it's worse in Athens than on the islands, but they can't be too relaxed either. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33535205 You might want to avoid it for a while.... http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/07/finance-minister-greek-bailout-versailles-150715164751774.html quote:Clashes have broken out at an anti-austerity rally by thousands of protesters outside Parliament in Athens. CommieGIR fucked around with this message at 21:11 on Jul 15, 2015 |
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Jul 15, 2015 20:29
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you have to hand it to Varoufakis: he knew when to get out (and earn the big bucks by selling books).
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Jul 15, 2015 21:21
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So, pretty much Greece should have immediately left the Euro 4 years ago, when they had lower debt and some currency reserves remaining?
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Jul 15, 2015 23:00
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Well technically they should never have joined it in the first place. They didn't meet the requirements and fiscal union without political union was always going to end up like this.
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Jul 15, 2015 23:04
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TheBalor posted:So, pretty much Greece should have immediately left the Euro 4 years ago, when they had lower debt and some currency reserves remaining? yes, or defaulted within the eurozone in 2008/9 when nobody had any idea what was going on and they could've gotten away with it
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Jul 15, 2015 23:11
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So apparently a majority of SYRIZA's Central Committee have come out against the deal, suggesting that at the very least the left platform have a mandate to cross the floor and refuse to accept the deal.
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Jul 15, 2015 23:22
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Waaaah the Christians are out to get me
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TheBalor posted:So, pretty much Greece should have immediately left the Euro 4 years ago, when they had lower debt and some currency reserves remaining? Looking at IMF data, Greece had roughly $US 6.5 billion in reserve assets 4 years ago and roughly 5.7 now (though it was averaging above 6.5 for the past year)
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Jul 16, 2015 00:07
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CommieGIR posted:
Half-serious question: how much longer can they actually afford riot police?
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Jul 16, 2015 04:05
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They went through all the circus and showmanship with the No vote just to be forced to follow the same failed austerity policies.
etalian fucked around with this message at 06:02 on Jul 16, 2015 |
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Jul 16, 2015 04:39
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TheBalor posted:So, pretty much Greece should have immediately left the Euro 4 years ago, when they had lower debt and some currency reserves remaining? Soviet Space Dog posted:Looking at IMF data, Greece had roughly $US 6.5 billion in reserve assets 4 years ago and roughly 5.7 now (though it was averaging above 6.5 for the past year) Yeah, to say that the Grexit 2009 would not have been costly is wrong. It would have been a different situation, probably with more goodwill directed to the direction of Greece and it could have been done under the normal IMF tutelage. And, the mechanisms would have been developed along this direction, not along the fact that Greece stayed in the Euro. NEVERTHELESS a Grexit, for a small country like Greece in the vicinity (locality as well as economic connection) of Eurozone. A Euro-peg would have never succeeded, not then and not now. The large issues would have been the same as they are now: Devaluation, inflation (towards imports and internal savings) etc. Export-led growth in a country with zero export industry would have been just as much a pipe-dream as it is now. There is a reason why Greece still doesn't want to exit.
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Jul 16, 2015 08:54
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this is usually about the time a junta comes in and make course corrections
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Jul 16, 2015 15:41
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Morroque posted:Half-serious question: how much longer can they actually afford riot police? go3 posted:this is usually about the time a junta comes in and make course corrections These thoughts are quite possibly related.
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Jul 17, 2015 03:54
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https://books.google.com/books?id=e...hatcher&f=false "The Euro is often spoken of as a means to unite post-war Europeans together emotionally and politically and to give this united Europe the economic power to compete with the U.S. economy. That’s horseshit. The Euro was invented in New York, New York, at Columbia University. Professor Mundell invented both the Euro and the guiding light of Thatcher-Reagan government: “Supply Side Economics” or, as George Bush Sr. accurately called it, “Voodoo Economics.” Reagan-Thatcher voodoo and the Euro are two sides of the same coin. (Ouch! Some puns hurt.) Like the Iron Lady and President Gaga. the Euro is inflexible. That is, once you join the Euro, your nation cannot fight recession by using fiscal or monetary policy. That leaves “wage reduction, fiscal constraints (cutting government jobs and benefits) as the only recourse in crisis,” The Wall Street Journal explains with joy—and sell-offs of government property (privatizations). Why the Euro, Professor? Dr. Mundell told me he was upset at zoning rules in Italy that did not allow him to put his commode where he wanted to in his villa there. “They’ve got rules that tell me I can’t have a toilet in this room. Can you imagine?” I couldn’t really. I don’t have an Italian villa, so I cannot really imagine the burden of commode placement restriction. The Euro will eventually allow you to put your toilet any drat place you want. He meant that the only way the government can create jobs is to fire people, cut benefits, and, crucially, cut the rules and regulations that restrict business. He told me: “Without fiscal policy, the only way nations can keep jobs is by the competitive reduction of rules on business.” Besides bowl location, he was talking about the labor laws, which raise the price of plumbers, environmental regulations, and, of course, taxes. No, I am not making this up. And I am not saying the Euro was imposed on the Old Country just so the professor could place his toilet at a place of maximum pleasure. The Euro is fashioned as an anti-regulation straitjacket that would eliminate gallons-per-flush laws, flush away restrictive banking regulation, and all other government controls."
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Jul 19, 2015 06:43
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It is amazing how many bad things can be traced back to Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher.
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Jul 19, 2015 08:56
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KernelSlanders posted:These thoughts are quite possibly related. Half of the police force are members of Golden Dawn, so... Yeah. They are. Hitler.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:11
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Rand alPaul posted:It is amazing how many bad things can be traced back to Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. Well Thatcher and Reagan trace back to this guy, apparently. Though I'd be hesitant to ever give sole credit on something like supply-side to just one guy. The author was more likely trying to make a point.
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Jul 19, 2015 14:40
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Just sell Greece to Turkey or something. I think the only way out at this point is for creditors to just eat the loss, but that's never going to happen. Greece is too demolished at this point to do anything remotely similar to repaying the money. Future historians are going to point at this as the root cause of some war, aren't they.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:14
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The Lord of Hats posted:Future historians are going to point at this as the root cause of some war, aren't they. it'll only take one spark at this point to light up the gunpowder, and that spark could be anything history repeats itself when people don't loving learn why poo poo happened in the first place
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Jul 19, 2015 21:29
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Always those drat Balkans.
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Jul 19, 2015 21:50
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The Lord of Hats posted:Just sell Greece to Turkey or something. Let Germany annex Greece. That way, the Greek get financial help without any crushing conditions, and the Germans get access to the Mediterranean Sea. Everyone wins.
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Jul 19, 2015 22:04
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Cardboard Box A posted:He meant that the only way the government can create jobs is to fire people, cut benefits, and, crucially, cut the rules and regulations that restrict business. But if you use the euro you are in the EU and if you are in the EU many of your rules and regulations come from Brussels. You can't abolish them to get you through a crisis any more than you can devalue the currency unless you find support from many other countries (or a few big ones).
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Jul 19, 2015 22:06
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hosed by the Arabs, then hosed by the Italians, then Turks, and now the Germans. The Greeks just can't get a break.
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Jul 20, 2015 01:26
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Venomous posted:it'll only take one spark at this point to light up the gunpowder, and that spark could be anything History education is always the first thing to get axed, along with the arts. I mean in most American high schools the history curriculum is taught by the football coach.
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Jul 20, 2015 10:33
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Lichy posted:hosed by the Arabs, then hosed by the Italians, then Turks, and now the Germans. They got plowed by the Macedonians and then the Romans, then the Ottomans, so on, so forth.
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Jul 20, 2015 14:06
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They had a pretty good run, but after 300 BCE or so it was probably time to throw in the towel.
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Jul 22, 2015 02:02
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FAUXTON posted:They got plowed by the Macedonians and then the Romans, then the Ottomans, so on, so forth. I like how greeks looked down on Macedonians but then claimed Alexander the Great was greek after he built his empire.
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Jul 22, 2015 02:23
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etalian posted:I like how greeks looked down on Macedonians but then claimed Alexander the Great was greek after he built his empire. Then Alexander started dressing and styling himself as Persian after he conquered them. The man was not exactly a cultural partisan.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:00
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Ah, so we've now come down to historical revisionism and the like. Mm, Greek intellectuals never dominated in Rome, either. Goons.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:21
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Cliff Racer posted:Well Thatcher and Reagan trace back to this guy, apparently. Though I'd be hesitant to ever give sole credit on something like supply-side to just one guy. The author was more likely trying to make a point. Yeah, no, the entirety of the loving Europroject wasn't a diabolical plot to enslave everyone to the whims of supply-side economics. There were a lot of dumb optimistic reasons to support it, lots of them economic. A lot of untested economic schemes seem to make sense at the time. (Like communism.  )I'm not even sold on it being a project that supply-siders largely supported - a pan-European cooperative effort sounds suspiciously like a thing that might counterbalance the oligarchs in any given country.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:29
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Velisarius posted:Ah, so we've now come down to historical revisionism and the like. Intellectuals like Pyrrhus?
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Jul 22, 2015 04:54
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Yeah, no, the entirety of the loving Europroject wasn't a diabolical plot to enslave everyone to the whims of supply-side economics. The single currency concept failed miserably since it was based on idealism.
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Jul 22, 2015 04:57
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