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Antwan3K posted:lol nice bubble this Greek economy yes if there is one problem with the greek economy it's this unsustainable and unfounded growth
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Jul 10, 2015 18:43
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The real Greek GDP, outside of this maniacal bubble, is actually 38 million US$, less than that of Tuvalu.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:45
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Like, the loans they got were basically a rough equivalent of QE, and look where they ended up because of it. Keynesian economics is not some inviolable law of nature, it works well in some cases and fails miserably in others. Antwan3K posted:lol nice bubble this Greek economy yes Yes, that is what it is? Are people here really that ignorant on this topic?
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Jul 10, 2015 18:48
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V. Illych L. posted:if there is one problem with the greek economy it's this unsustainable and unfounded growth Precisely.
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Jul 10, 2015 18:49
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tsa posted:Like, the loans they got were basically a rough equivalent of QE, and look where they ended up because of it. Keynesian economics is not some inviolable law of nature, it works well in some cases and fails miserably in others. So what's the real GDP, absent the current inflated GDP of 246.6 billion US$? Is it in the millions? Tens of millions?
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Jul 10, 2015 18:49
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Unfortunately, having a huge % of your population retire at 50 is unsustainable, who would have thought? Having tax evasion be your national sport doesn't help either!
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Jul 10, 2015 18:51
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Effectronica posted:So what's the real GDP, absent the current inflated GDP of 246.6 billion US$? Is it in the millions? Tens of millions? We'll find out soon enough 
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Jul 10, 2015 18:51
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tsa posted:Unfortunately, having a huge % of your population retire at 50 is unsustainable, who would have thought? Having tax evasion be your national sport doesn't help either! What is the real Greek GDP, since they are currently, even after a 33% decline, in a bubble?
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Jul 10, 2015 18:52
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 This is a bubble, there was no underlying reason for Greece to grow at that rate vs. other EU countries.  Greek productivity. Seems weird they grew more than other countries while having the lowest productivity and employment rate. It's almost as if the money just went to servicing a clientalist economy.  Greece has been in the shitter for a long time, and has papered over this with unsustainable debt. I hope this has been educational!
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Jul 10, 2015 19:03
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Effectronica posted:What is the real Greek GDP, since they are currently, even after a 33% decline, in a bubble? This is the bubble deflating, see above.
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Jul 10, 2015 19:03
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Effectronica posted:The real Greek GDP, outside of this maniacal bubble, is actually 38 million US$, less than that of Tuvalu. Uhhh... Greece's 2014 GDP was $237.59 billion.
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Jul 10, 2015 19:06
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You know what else is unsustainable: banks that lend billions of dollars to people who could never pay it back in a hundred years...oh, but now that we've bailed them out it's time to demand people starve in the name of self-sufficiency.
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Jul 10, 2015 19:11
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tsa posted:This is the bubble deflating, see above. That's not what you said earlier, you L-I-A-R. Zeroisanumber posted:Uhhh... Greece's 2014 GDP was $237.59 billion. That's the bubble GDP. The real GDP is such that there are less than ten dollars per Greek.
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Jul 10, 2015 19:14
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I'll give one thing to Syriza, as much as I hate their dumb guts I have no idea what can be done to actually regenerate the Greek economy. Elimanating all international debt would be an obvious start and the fact that they aren't doing that shows how cynical the new negotiations are. Cracking down on tax evaders would be good but most of the uncollected tax is locked up in London and Manhattan real estate so that's limited. Stimulate the economy, what does Greece actually produce again that can be stimualed - tourism...can Athens be made into the next Barcelona? Kinda doubt it...yoghurt olives and shipping? Ermmm Can they sell an island outright? How much would Lesbos fetch?
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Jul 10, 2015 19:36
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Effectronica posted:That's the bubble GDP. The real GDP is such that there are less than ten dollars per Greek. That's impossible. I know three guys who make more than that per year. Greece is a nation of 11 million, shipping and tourism alone have to be way, way higher than that.
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Jul 10, 2015 19:37
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Zeroisanumber posted:That's impossible. I know three guys who make more than that per year. Greece is a nation of 11 million, shipping and tourism alone have to be way, way higher than that. Wow, look at this guy who thinks that Greece isn't in a bubble right now. Jesus. What an idiot, am I right, fellas?
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Jul 10, 2015 19:39
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The selling an island suggestions are just bizarre, what are you going to do with the Greeks that live on the island?
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Jul 10, 2015 19:40
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Sergiu64 posted:The selling an island suggestions are just bizarre, what are you going to do with the Greeks that live on the island? Move them to another island? It's not like anyone can tell the difference.
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Jul 10, 2015 19:46
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Effectronica posted:Wow, look at this guy who thinks that Greece isn't in a bubble right now. Jesus. What an idiot, am I right, fellas? Lol if you actually thing that the Greek GDP is $38 million. You sound like a crazy person unless you present some bulletproof sources for your number Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 20:00
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Mr.48 posted:Lol if you actually thing that the Greek GDP is $38 million. You sound like a crazy person unless you present some bulletproof sources for your number Don't be willfully dense.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:09
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Mr.48 posted:Lol if you actually thing that the Greek GDP is $38 million. You sound like a crazy person unless you present some bulletproof sources for your number tsa posted:Without reforms QE makes the situation worse. You can't get out of a bubble by pumping it with more money. The whole problem in the first place is money going to unproductive clientalism, for QE to work you actually need to have a functioning economy to begin with. The IMF has not been opposed to helping Greece out, the problem is Syriza is doing jack poo poo to actually fix their underlying issues.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:11
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Still not a source for your quite specific and extremely ridiculous claim. Chamale posted:Don't be willfully dense. Sorry I wasnt aware that people could just pull numbers our of their rear end and post them as if it were fact around here.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:14
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Mr.48 posted:Still not a source for your quite specific and extremely ridiculous claim. You can't be this stupid.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:15
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Effectronica posted:You can't be this stupid. Effectronica posted:The real Greek GDP, outside of this maniacal bubble, is actually 38 million US$, less than that of Tuvalu. Waiting for a source.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:17
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Mr.48 posted:Still not a source for your quite specific and extremely ridiculous claim. Mr.48 posted:Waiting for a source. I am sure that the guy making an absurdly specific and ridiculous claim is being 100% serious and not taking the piss out of the guy asserting that the current Greek GDP is actually some vague lower number. Good job.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:17
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Mr.48 posted:Waiting for a source. That was a joke, based on tsa insisting that the Greek GDP is still inflated after a 33% crash. I predict that you will start pulling out GBS catchphrases about puppetmastering or whatever in response to this statement.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:18
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VitalSigns posted:I am sure that the guy making an absurdly specific and ridiculous claim is being 100% serious and not taking the piss out of the guy asserting that the current Greek GDP is actually some vague lower number. Good job. Coolio, next time I make poo poo up I'll just pretend that its everyone else's fault for calling me an idiot when I was clearly kidding. If you really were kidding its a pretty dumb joke.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:18
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Mr.48 posted:Coolio, next time I make poo poo up I'll just pretend that its everyone else's fault for calling me an idiot when I was clearly kidding. he was really clearly kidding
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Jul 10, 2015 20:19
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Mr.48 posted:Coolio, next time I make poo poo up I'll just pretend that its everyone else's fault for calling me an idiot when I was clearly kidding. It was incredibly obvious he was being sarcastic. Good lord
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Jul 10, 2015 20:22
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Mr.48 posted:Coolio, next time I make poo poo up I'll just pretend that its everyone else's fault for calling me an idiot when I was clearly kidding. You really need to stop having such a low opinion of people that you assume someone who says that there are only three dollars and change per person in Greece right now is being serious.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:22
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Omelette du Fromage posted:It was incredibly obvious he was being sarcastic. Good lord Effectronica posted:You really need to stop having such a low opinion of people that you assume someone who says that there are only three dollars and change per person in Greece right now is being serious. Have you actually talked to many people lately? Many are absolutely that dumb about anything that happens outside of their own little world. Sorry for blowing up on you.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:22
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Effectronica posted:You really need to stop having such a low opinion of people that you assume someone who says that there are only three dollars and change per person in Greece right now is being serious. To be fair, Greece chat here has been almost wall-to-wall shitposting and poorly veiled racism for a while, so your constant sarcasm and "joke" racism just sort of blend into the diarrhea stream at this point.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:26
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Greece is not a bubble it is a recession, perhaps a depression. Dunno if this has been resolved or not yet.
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Jul 10, 2015 20:57
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tsa posted:Without reforms QE makes the situation worse. You can't get out of a bubble by pumping it with more money. The whole problem in the first place is money going to unproductive clientalism, for QE to work you actually need to have a functioning economy to begin with. The IMF has not been opposed to helping Greece out, the problem is Syriza is doing jack poo poo to actually fix their underlying issues. I'm not going to comment on QE. But I will say that clientalism of the Greek form is not necessarily unproductive. If the money for paying pensioners had come from taxes of some sort (rich people, tourism, shipping, olives, whatever) then those pensioners can go out and spend that money on goods and products. In an economic sense, that isn't unproductive. Greece's problem is that it financed its client payments with money it could only borrow because of the interest rate convergence that occurred because lenders assumed that Greece would be bailed out by the EU, boy was that wrong. I am not defending Greek clientalism or the practice in general, especially because Greece's pension system appears to account for about 15% of GDP (I forget where I saw that number). But the problem with Greece isn't that it engaged in clientalism per se or that clientalism is necessarily a drag on the economy, the problem is that Greece borrowed a poo poo load of money to do it on a grand scale. Also, I don't think I have ever seen (presumably) unsustainable GDP growth ever referred to as a 'bubble.' Although I guess the Greek GDP is supposed to measure the value of the whole Greek economy (an asset of sorts) and the people bidding up the price of that asset were the people willing to loan the Greeks ever more money, betting that the asset would be more valuable tomorrow than it is today. I suppose they also could have been cynically betting on a bailout, so they didn't care about the value of the asset from day one. Oliver Blanchard's explanation of the IMF's position is interesting. So is the inevitable response from Krugman.
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Jul 10, 2015 21:22
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Mr.48 posted:Its entirely possible that the internet broke my sarcasm detector for good. You may have the 'tism. (This is not a joke)
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Jul 11, 2015 00:09
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tsa posted:Without reforms QE makes the situation worse. You can't get out of a bubble by pumping it with more money. The whole problem in the first place is money going to unproductive clientalism, for QE to work you actually need to have a functioning economy to begin with. The IMF has not been opposed to helping Greece out, the problem is Syriza is doing jack poo poo to actually fix their underlying issues. Well greece does have two somewhat separate problems. First they have obvious structural problems (small weak economy). But second, and somewhat separately the recent past has hosed their financial system. They have zero money flowing, terrible employment and aren't coming close to properly utilizing the capital and labor that they do actually have. Financial policy, which might include QE, could theoretically addresses that. Although how you implement anything in the current context is a huge question.
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Jul 11, 2015 02:56
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In a way, Greece has to crash so that you know for a fact what the rock bottom level level of real productivity is. Defaulting cleanses all debts and gets you to that point, at the cost of the misery of the common Greek.
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Jul 11, 2015 04:18
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Mr.48 posted:Its entirely possible that the internet broke my sarcasm detector for good. I think if they're dumb enough to swallow that line about 38 million dollar being the GDP of Greece you'd need to reclassify them as plants. On the other hand, I found this data supporting Effectronica, so maybe the Greek GDP really is that low  Source.
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Jul 11, 2015 12:54
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A+ trolling going on.
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Jul 11, 2015 18:12
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Boner Slam posted:Piketty and Kruggles are not in opposition to my view, duder. quote:Who claims that finance people are qualified in economic policy matters? That's an entirely different education. ...a hell of a lot of people who work in finance, unfortunately (as ridiculous as that may be, given, as you said, it's a completely different education). Even people who consider themselves liberals/not right-wing (which would actually be most of the people I know who work in finance) seem to automatically assume the prevalent ideology of their employer to be the most correct/objective. There's this sort of anti-intellectual bent to it, which is strange given that most of the people I'm thinking of work in various quantitative fields, rather than in sales-focused positions. quote:Otherwise I am not sure I know where you are disagreeing with me... Yeah, I think I read something into your posts that you weren't actually saying due to my own dislike of the sort of attitude I (wrongly, apparently) was attributing to you.
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Jul 11, 2015 23:47
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