Let's Read Jojo Part 4

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Let's Read Jojo Part 4

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

On the topic of Alessi, he's probably the only one of the Egyptian God Stand Users that they could've gotten the secret of The World's power from considering that they were able to render him unconscious even as kids.

Then again, I wouldn't want to look into that guy's mind either.

I don't think he knew what The World did. I think the only people who knew were Enya, Vanilla Ice, Daniel D'arby, and maybe Terence D'arby. (Nukesaku would have had a clue because he was present for the testing with the bullets, at least in the anime, but he wasn't smart enough to actually figure it out.)

# ¿ Jul 19, 2015 19:41

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 13:18

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Bad Seafood posted:

Samurai Deeper Kyo and Bleach are the two shounen I think of immediately when I want an example for how not to write shounen.

I think of Katekyo Hitman Reborn, personally.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2015 22:24

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Xibanya posted:

OK actually I find this totally fine because full disclosure, I used to do this all the time. It's only after I graduated from university that I was diagnosed with ADHD...ahh if only I had known sooner. Josuke, get help! You can still save yourself the anguish of disappointing your friends and loved ones with your ADHD ways! Beyond my jokey comments, to talk about the actual executive function disorder known as ADHD and not the dumb stereotypes about what that it is (it does not meen hyper happy funtimes at all hours, I assure you,) Josuke's mood swings and personality dissociation are also very typical of someone with ADHD (go ask ADHD megathread for details if you start realizing that this might describe you. Don't let the stigma of "lol kids overdiagnosed big pharma" stop you from finding peace in your life. [/public service announcement]) The diagnosis isn't common in Japan (in fact I found I was not allowed to take my adderall with me into the country) but just as literary scholars can look at two hundred years ago and say "the author gave this character traits we now know to be consistent with someone on the autism spectrum," it wouldn't surprise me if Araki had seen people in his life with (undiagnosed) ADHD and applied some of their traits to Josuke. OK all that might be a bit of a stretch, but now I'm gonna be looking out for more evidence to flesh out my theory!

By the way, I can't be the only one who thinks Naruto Uzumaki has ADHD, right?

# ¿ Sep 5, 2015 01:22

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

You should probably post Part 5 stuff in the manga thread.

I'll post a reply there.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2015 20:59

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Xibanya posted:

I saw a lot of criticism of Speed Racer that was related to how the world it presented would collapse on itself out of sheer impossibility. And I haven't even looked too deeply at criticism of the Scott Pilgrim movie (I saw it last night) but what I've already seen is people complaining about how it doesn't make sense that the main character in a modern day North American city could go around wire-fu fighting people to death without getting arrested.

I think the main thing that stops people from finding these films accessible is that the logic of the setting shown by these films collapses if you try to think of them as worlds that exist continuously even when we're not watching. (Criticism related to characters being "one dimensional" is just another way of phrasing this complaint.) But a good story's setting doesn't have to be realistic even within the confines of its own logic.

A lot of people think that a good story has to have a realistic setting in the sense that the story presents XYZ departure from reality and then follows its own internal logic such that you could set up a simulation to the parameters outlined by the setting and it should be reasonably stable. (As in, OK we accept that faster-than-light travel is possible in this setting; everything else follows real world logic.) But a setting that follows its own internal logic is not the cause of a good story; a setting that doesn't follow its own internal logic (commonly said to have "plot holes") is not the cause of a bad story. A bad story is one that is thematically, not logically, inconsistent. In other words, if a theme is a statement about some fundamental truth in life, a good story has themes that are complementary and a bad story has themes that contradict each other. It just so happens that a story that was written carelessly enough to be thematically incoherent tends to also be logically incoherent. It's a shame, because I think we internet people in particular have been primed to believe that settings should theoretically be able to continue functioning "off screen" and that if they couldn't possibly exist without vanishing in a puff of logic then the story is bad.

However, I believe that even though that's the case, on some level we know that's not true. Have you ever watched a movie and thought to yourself "this is so dumb but I like it; I guess you just have to turn your brain off to enjoy it"? That phrase "you just have to turn your brain off" ... people say it almost sheepishly which is a shame because the films that tend to fall into that category tend to be films that tell a thematically consistent story with effective use of emotional beats and powerful archetypes. It's also generally the case that the internal logic of those films' settings don't really hold up to scrutiny. The films that tend to fall into this category are summer action blockbusters that involve explosions. I'm not crazy about these films, but they tend to employ visual storytelling techniques extremely effectively and communicate their themes extremely clearly. The reason why I don't care much for them is because I'm not crazy about the message. Generally it's something along the lines of "Being good at fighting leads to success," which is not particularly challenging as far as themes go (and of course complementary themes like "white dudes are awesome" and "") and if I'm in particularly bad mood, I'd go so far as to say all the films with that theme have a net negative effect on society in aggregate. Still, a good story is a good story, so every now and then even I can find myself out for a beer at the Alamo Drafthouse for such a film.

When you see a story that is using symbols to represent its setting and archetypes to represent its characters, in place of specific character development, the storyteller is developing your relationship with these cultural touchstones. (And that's why I'm not crazy about summer action flicks - they usually don't bring anything new to the table.) If you go back to Beowulf, the story is as much a conversation with the audience about what an ideal king is as it is the literal story about some dude who fought monsters or something I guess. Speed Racer touches on the concept of developing an identity as an individual as much as it tells the story of some kid caught up in high stakes auto racing. The Scott Pilgrim film is about a guy who learns to have a healthy relationship with himself and others through making peace with his own insecurities. The main thematic content of Stardust Crusaders comes from the story of a boy who transitions into manhood by defending his family from an external threat, which is one of the oldest and most powerful stories ever told.

Obviously this style of storytelling has limits, (and notably, JJBA Part 4 is not done in this style and therefore is not confined by its limits) but it can also achieve a certain kind of emotional resonance within a rather short time frame that isn't really possible with a more realistically drawn setting which is what makes it so effective in film. This is probably also why Stardust Crusaders to this day is the most popular Jojo outside of Japan - it uses universally recognized symbols and motifs as its visual elements so you don't even need to explain why anything is happening.

drat that became a lot of .

More Let's Read DiU coming tonight....and a very very special Let's Cold Read Duwang!

This is an interesting view, although I disagree with it. I think part of what makes Part 4 more enjoyable than Part 3 for me is that the characters, even villains of the week, do seem to have lives "offscreen" (Enigma is an exception, but he wouldn't be Enigma if he wasn't) and we get to see the Part 4 protagonists in contexts other than fighting for their lives.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Sep 28, 2015

# ¿ Sep 28, 2015 21:00

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Maybe Dio put a bud in his head because he knew he was an abusive parent and sympathized with the future main characters?

I intended for that to be a joke, but now I halfway believe it.

I can kind of buy that, actually. He might have reminded Dio of his own father.

# ¿ Sep 30, 2015 04:57

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Prison Warden posted:

This stuff seriously happens so much in anime I barely even noticed it. The impression I have of Japan is that approximately 50% of all kids just raise themselves somehow like wolves. Except not. Japan's child welfare system is pretty robust too since they can not only feed themselves (and often a sibling) but can somehow afford a mortgage as well.

It's a remarkably common and silly cliche. Often there's a handwave where they have a legal guardian who sends them money but doesn't live with them, and the oldest sibling is usually a teenager when the parents die or whatever. Here their father hasn't been lucid since Keicho was 8 or so, though.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Oct 6, 2015

# ¿ Oct 6, 2015 00:21

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Jojo isn't a parody, exactly, but it is intentionally campy in a way that sort of blurs the line between silly and serious, at least from Battle Tendency onward. (I'm not sure if Phantom Blood's campiness is intentional; the anime plays it that way, but the manga doesn't give me that impression.)

# ¿ Oct 21, 2015 06:26

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Amaryllis posted:

I would buy the whole "Kobayashi is putting on an act so as to worm his way in with Koichi" explanation, except that it doesn't seem like he has much reason to put on that act in the first place. What does he stand to gain by getting involved with these wacky stand users, versus just scuttling off and doing his own thing? Does he really think that Koichi, of all people, is going to come after him if he doesn't hang around acting all servile? The biggest thing that confused me about Kobayashi in this chapter, though, is why this adult con artist knows more about high school gossip than the high school students themselves. (Did I forget about some little detail that would make that make sense?) Anyway, these chapters are cool enough that I don't actually care in the end that the setup is kind of strange.

I think Kobayashi is only 20 years old, and he used to go to the same high school. It's not implausible for him to have a friend in the third-year class.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2015 03:41

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Actually, Dark Blue Moon was only 3 chapters.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2015 23:26

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

Or maybe Kakyoin was just that much of a tool with the flesh bud in.

I think it's this. The flesh bud affected his personality much more than it did Polnareff's.

# ¿ Dec 2, 2015 04:01

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

ZenVulgarity posted:

I am enjoying this anime and the one punch anime very much

Why does Joseph turn into a bit of a moron in his old age

I think he took some serious brain damage during the Lovers fight.

# ¿ Dec 8, 2015 02:48

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Hobgoblin2099 posted:

N'doul was pretty cool. He almost took out the whole group on his own, killed himself to avoid any mind reading of Joseph's, and had enough honor to tell Jotaro some information about his enemies out of respect.

I think it's pretty interesting, though, how N'doul makes it sound like he and the other Egyptian God Stand Users are all familiar with DIO's power as well as each other's powers. It's a stark contrast to, say, Devo (Ebony Devil) who went on about how the Stand Users he knew of that worked for DIO went out of their way to avoid showing each other their abilities.

Despite this, the Egyptian Gods work together only slightly more than the Tarot guys. Oingo works with Boingo, Alessi works with Mariah, and Terence D'Arby sort-of works with Kenny G. N'Doul, Daniel D'Arby, Anubis, Pet Shop, and Vanilla Ice all work alone. There are some plausible reasons for this, though; Oingo taught Boingo to distrust people other than himself, conventional combat-oriented Stands would probably just get in the D'Arby brothers' way, and Pet Shop and Anubis don't seem to like humans much.

It's an interesting example of how Jojo's plot structure differs from most battle shonen today. In a series like One Piece or Bleach, every party member essentially fights a different opponent one-on-one at the same time. This demonstrates more sensible tactical thinking on the part of the villains than the Jojo approach, but sometimes leads to awkward pacing due to having to cut between the different fights.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 09:03 on Dec 8, 2015

# ¿ Dec 8, 2015 08:53

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Okuyasu Nijimura posted:

Re-reading Surface again reminded me of the fact that it's hilarious that Star Platinum's just well known apparently. Like there's some sort of Superstar Stands bulletin circulating or some poo poo. I can see why Hazemada's not totally familiar with Crazy Diamond but it's weird when people miss his powers but seem to know what SP can do.

I've noticed that too. The best explanation I can come up with is that Keicho Nijimura found out from someone at the Speedwagon Foundation, then told everybody he gave powers to.

# ¿ Dec 24, 2015 03:48

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Xibanya posted:

Because Hazamada was the character who was under the most pressure emotionally, I can't help but compare him to Keicho. Not only was Keicho also someone who would rather behave in a self-destructive pattern than confront their own flaws, Keicho was also undone more or less as a result of his own choices with little direct action by Josuke. I'll be curious to see if this ends up being how most enemies in this series end up getting taken out. If so, that's pretty zen - Josuke defeats his enemies by redirecting their momentum back at them. Still, I kind of hope that that isn't the case as in both this story and Echoes Josuke seemed so cold and detached that he stopped feeling like a teenager to me, which is a shame because I thought Araki managed to strike a pretty good balance between having him seem wise beyond his years and keeping his behavior age-appropriate.

I think the death of his grandfather (who was far more like a father to him than Joseph was) has made Josuke a bit emotionally numb lately.

# ¿ Apr 18, 2016 02:21

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Xibanya posted:

Read to the end of Yukako's Love, think I'll wrap up the whole thing in one entry since going chapter by chapter was getting tedious. Something I wanted to note separate from the Let's Read, the arc ends with a duwang-ism that the Invincible Trio chose to preserve. I think it's unfortunate that they used the fan-famous duwangisms in more serious scenes (like "who in face are you") and I'd advice anyone working on a translation to avoid similar stamps of individuality on their work since not only do in-jokes like this seem a bit self-indulgent, they also require knowledge of the fandom at the time of translation and so may not age well. Sure, I knew about the duwangisms because I've been chatting with alla ya'll this whole time but what if someone starts reading part 4 and isn't into fandom-type stuff? Too late for this series, but thought I'd put my two cents in there since some of you do work on other fan translation projects.

I think "Get a feeling so complicated" was actually a pretty apt line regardless of it originally being Duwang, as was "I feel you! I feel you deeply! Your feeling I can feel deeply!" I agree that "Who in face are you?" was overly self-indulgent, though.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 03:56

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

no they will not posted:

and based on how the eyes of heaven loading page quote translated it, the official anime translation is going to SUCK

I don't remember the line in question. What is it?

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 23:21

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 13:18

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

CodfishCartographer posted:

I assume the line about the Mona Lisa.

That's barely even a Duwangism, that's just a straightforward translation. Though I expect the Crunchyroll translators to censor it slightly.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2016 23:47

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > VEGETA > Let's Read Jojo Part 4