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Sadi posted:Motor trend put Randy Pobst in the frs and ND at willow springs and the ND was faster by about 1.4 seconds. I would think the BRZ is faster than a s2k on the track but I've never driven either on the track so #benchracing. Why would you think that
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Aug 11, 2015 00:41
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Nodoze posted:Why would you think that Probably because in the video he is referencing they mention that the Miata has gripper tires. Kinda funny that he only mentions it once and its deep in the video. 16:35 in this video. BRZ vs Miata Club Sport https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLtw2z_mZ6w BlackMK4 fucked around with this message at 02:49 on Aug 11, 2015 |
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Aug 11, 2015 02:27
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BlackMK4 posted:Probably because in the video he is referencing they mention that the Miata has gripper tires. Kinda funny that he only mentions it once and its deep in the video. I meant the BRZ being faster than the S2K Both the (new) miata and the S2k are faster
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Aug 11, 2015 03:41
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Because the BRZ has newer engineering (lol jk wrx suspension) and its 100lb lighter for about the same hp. Frankly I figured the s2k should have been the frs' bench mark. But I've never driven either, no less raced. I'd love to run a s2k though. I hear they are nice and loose (which I like) and I'm a sucker for a good shifter.
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Aug 11, 2015 04:02
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Sadi posted:Because the BRZ has newer engineering (lol jk wrx suspension) and its 100lb lighter for about the same hp. 
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Aug 11, 2015 04:41
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Wrar posted:The S2K has another 40HP dude They also weigh the same, and the BRZ can end up a little heavier
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Aug 11, 2015 05:09
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It's weird that the BRZ/FRS gets accused of having skinny tires, when the S2000 is only 10mm wider in the rear.
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Aug 11, 2015 06:13
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kimbo305 posted:It's weird that the BRZ/FRS gets accused of having skinny tires, when the S2000 is only 10mm wider in the rear. Well, that depends on your aspect ratio for the S2000. I know the 06 I used to have came with a 245/40 and a 255/40 would also fit. On the other hand, I think the AP1 came with 225/45s.
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Aug 11, 2015 06:24
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BlackMK4 posted:Well, that depends on your aspect ratio for the S2000. I know the 06 I used to have came with a 245/40 and a 255/40 would also fit. On the other hand, I think the AP1 came with 225/45s. Stock AP1 wheels are 16x6.5 in the front and 16x7.5 in the back, 205 and 225 AP2 is the good stuff, 17x7 and 17x8.5
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Aug 11, 2015 06:29
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S2000 is the only car I'd consider trading my e36 m3 for...but the ap2s are still balls expensive and the ap1s are apparently not as good at autoX which is all I do these days.
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Aug 11, 2015 12:05
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Human Grand Prix posted:I have a NA Gen 2. It's easy to drive and snap-oversteer claims are somewhat exaggerated. Super agreed. I drift my dumb Gen 2 NA in the rain all the time, and oversteer in the dry is comparable in abruptness and violence to the S2000.
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Aug 11, 2015 13:54
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I'm still having way too much fun in my BRZ after two years, am I doing this wrong?
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Aug 11, 2015 15:22
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Phone posted:Road and Track has the fuel cut at 6900rpm in their notes: (link: http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/a25857/testing-the-2016-mazda-miata-less-is-more-quantified/ ) Hmm, I have doubts that the tach is accurate at the high end. I suspect 6900 indicated is really 6500-6600. I guess we'll see in the next few months how it really performs.
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Aug 11, 2015 18:20
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Why would the tach not be accurate? If there's one thing an ecu knows, it's the rpms...?
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Aug 11, 2015 18:53
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bolind posted:Why would the tach not be accurate? If there's one thing an ecu knows, it's the rpms...? The ECU can know all it wants, but the dial on the gauge can potentially fall behind what is happening in the motor.
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Aug 11, 2015 18:58
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ssjonizuka posted:The ECU can know all it wants, but the dial on the gauge can potentially fall behind what is happening in the motor. Kinda. What the gauge indicates, and what the ECU says, can be two different things. The ECU might send a signal to the gauge to display 4000, but the resolution at that particular point in the gauge sweep might be off, so the gauge displays 4125. If you hook up a scan tool to the ODB2 port and ask the ECU directly, it will report 4000. Same thing with speedometers. You speedo may say you are doing 150 on that back stretch of the track, but GPS or a radar gun will put you at 130. The gauge is calibrated to be accurate at a particular range, and values outside of that range are not as accurate due to electronic or mechanical limitations of the system. I know the RX-8 and NC miatas have this issue. For example, the fuel cut according to the tach on the RX-8 is at 9300 RPM, however its at 9000 according to the ECU.
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Aug 11, 2015 19:16
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Roadspeed is difficult due to the fact that the circumference of the tire can be different from expected (tire pressure, aftermarket wheels) but the tach not showing right is just pure laziness.
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Aug 11, 2015 19:22
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Brigdh posted:Kinda. What the gauge indicates, and what the ECU says, can be two different things. The ECU might send a signal to the gauge to display 4000, but the resolution at that particular point in the gauge sweep might be off, so the gauge displays 4125. If you hook up a scan tool to the ODB2 port and ask the ECU directly, it will report 4000. Also with scales and thermometers. I used to calibrate precision equipment, and you'll generally find that quantities within the "most used" area tend to be the most accurate, but once you get around the edges things can go wonky.
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Aug 11, 2015 20:03
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bolind posted:Roadspeed is difficult due to the fact that the circumference of the tire can be different from expected (tire pressure, aftermarket wheels) but the tach not showing right is just pure laziness. Its not lazyness. Pretty much any gauge or calibrated tool has a range its good for, and everything else. This tends to be why there are guidelines for torque wrenches and air pressure gauges that you should only use them if the value you are shooting for is within the middle of what the tool can provide, and if not, get a different tool with a range more suited to the usecase. Oh hey, its not just my imagination: Solkanar512 posted:Also with scales and thermometers. I used to calibrate precision equipment, and you'll generally find that quantities within the "most used" area tend to be the most accurate, but once you get around the edges things can go wonky.
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Aug 11, 2015 21:26
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Sadi posted:Because the BRZ has newer engineering (lol jk wrx suspension) and its 100lb lighter for about the same hp. The twins are designed to be fun to drive and handle well. They're really quick with good tires and respond to modification well because of that, but S2000s are just outright faster cars. Crustashio posted:S2000 is the only car I'd consider trading my e36 m3 for...but the ap2s are still balls expensive and the ap1s are apparently not as good at autoX which is all I do these days. They're pretty much the exact same speed wise. AP1s werent going to beat AP2s in B Stock but in STR prep the difference between the two is mostly the driver. Solkanar512 posted:I'm still having way too much fun in my BRZ after two years, am I doing this wrong? Yes, you need to be complaining about the torque dip.
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Aug 11, 2015 21:31
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Muffinpox, do you have any SW20 MR2s (preferably ES) you can borrow and write about? I would like to see that post, and share it with the locals.
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Aug 11, 2015 21:39
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There was one there this weekend, but we were in seperate run groups and I couldn't really hand him the keys to what I brought to trade runs.
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Aug 11, 2015 21:42
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Muffinpox posted:The twins are designed to be fun to drive and handle well. They're really quick with good tires and respond to modification well because of that, but S2000s are just outright faster cars. However, if you dare to bring up the fact that stock for stock the 350Z is faster than the S2000 around a race track (not autox), you'll get so much shade thrown at you. It's pretty funny to see in action. For the record, I like S2000s and have driven both AP1s and AP2s. They're twitchy and unforgiving, but ridiculously fast. (I don't like the shifter though, too vague... Not truck like in the Miata 5 speed)
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Aug 11, 2015 22:06
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Phone posted:(I don't like the shifter though, too vague... Not truck like in the Miata 5 speed) It's not my favorite shift feel, but it is drat close to the most precise.
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Aug 11, 2015 23:21
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Phone posted:(I don't like the shifter though, too vague... Not truck like in the Miata 5 speed) ...S2000 gearshift is stupidly precise, it's honestly one of the finest shifts in a car. Vague isn't a word I'd use to describe it.
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Aug 11, 2015 23:50
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I didn't feel any positive engagement when putting it in gear, just an extra two seconds of questioning if it went into the right gate. If you've ever typed on Cherry MX Blues or an old IBM Model M keyboard, you'll know the satisfying clunk at the press of engagement.
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Aug 12, 2015 00:32
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If you're ever in South Florida and there is an autocross going on, let me know. I'll let you co-drive my 350hp supercharged 06 S2000. I've been meaning to kill some cones again.
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Aug 12, 2015 01:42
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Phone posted:I didn't feel any positive engagement when putting it in gear, just an extra two seconds of questioning if it went into the right gate. are we using the same transmission?
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Aug 12, 2015 02:18
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ssjonizuka posted:The ECU can know all it wants, but the dial on the gauge can potentially fall behind what is happening in the motor. If Road and Track are figuring a car I'm pretty sure they'll use some kind of data acquisition system to pull the actual numbers from the CAN. A Traqmate or RaceCapture Pro isn't expensive.
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Aug 12, 2015 02:23
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dandaman posted:If you're ever in South Florida and there is an autocross going on, let me know. I'll let you co-drive my 350hp supercharged 06 S2000. I've been meaning to kill some cones again. PM me, I'm willing to fly around to drive any cars people want to offer up! I'm gonna try to make it to TN in sept for some M3s. Phone posted:I didn't feel any positive engagement when putting it in gear, just an extra two seconds of questioning if it went into the right gate. I BET YOU'RE THE ONE WHO DESIGNED THE E36 M3 MANUAL YOU SICK SON OF A BITCH.
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Aug 12, 2015 03:16
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Brunton Super stal... what's that.... OH GOD SNAKEBITE 2014 Dodge Viper: But it's a loving Dodge I pull up to a stop light. A Supra abruptly stops next to me and a blonde man with lightly tussled hair and with a bald man next to him look over. "Nice Car" he says, "Whats the retail on one of those things?" "More than I can afford pal", I snarkily reply as I rev the V10, "Dodge."  Before I dive into the review of the Gen V Viper, we just need to talk about the Viper. The Dodge Viper. What can you really say about the Dodge Viper that is not understood by saying "Viper." It is not a car, it is an idea, a classification. It had a TV show in the 90s because it's just that cool. A Dodge Viper is not a model, it is a type of car. It is something that hates you and you buy one because you revel in masochism. Because of this, not many people buy them and occupies a weird super car niche where it is more exotic and eye catching than a Ferrari, but it's a Dodge. They're not a really a beautiful car, but it's also hard to not just stare at them. It has all the stupid gills and vents and wings that people think make cars look dumb, but at the same time it just has such a nice, curvy shape. It's like a lion. It's athletic, it's powerful, it's majestic, and it is built for one purpose; to chase things down and eviscerate them. I picked up camera gear to document this review on Friday night. On the drive back I came across a pack of 15-20 early 20 year olds at a stop sign. Every single one of them became transfixed on the car. The first one to speak was a gorgeous blonde girl that walked over, leaned down so I could see her through the window, and asked "How tiny is your dick?" Snakebite. As I've mentioned earlier, the old Dodge Vipers do one thing and they do it well; they are fast through pure, brunt force and it feel like the world is exploding while you're in a shed that is also exploding. They are not nice places to be. The handling is more of an afterthought. The car hates you. It's the most raw and visceral experience you can even imagine in a car. Everything about them is absolute, unadulterated savagery. It is absolutely magnificent. I get into the new Viper the same way you get into all Vipers; carefully. A big sticker warns you not to touch the wide door sills in case you're a little baby that's going to cry because you're bothered by things like first degree burns on any exposed body part that may touch it. I knew of this risk and still ended up with a first degree burn on my kneecap. Once bitten, twice snakebite they say. There's still that character but then you get in the car it's a bit worrying. The cabin is really nice, actually fitting of a 80k+ car, for once. The cabin is covered in rich leather and nice shiny plastics. The sabelt seats have the perfect amount of bolstering to be unobtrusive like a race seat but keep you in place while driving hard. The rear hatch is carbon and aluminum, the front hood is all carbon. There's carbon and aluminum everywhere. The coilovers use articulated mounts rather than a pillow ball top. You don't see any of this from the driver seat though, just hood. And roof. Then some of the outside world. I'd say 40% hood, 40% outside world, 20% roof. Looking out the rear is approximately 80% hatch and 20% outside world, there's a backup camera to help you out though which is extremely useful but also feels weird to be backing up just staring at a screen. The infotainment system doesn't have menus upon menus, anything you need can be accessed from the first screen. There's some customization options buried in it a bit deeper but everything needed to drive the car and be comfortable is immediate and obvious. The flat bottomed steering wheel is small and has a great thickness to it. The buttons on the wheel make a lot of sense and do everything you want or need to while staying out of the way of hand placement for driving.  The car is big, the hood has three pairs of air extractors running down it from the front, there's approximately two or three feet of car from the front splitter to extractor closest to the cabin on the hood. That closest extractor is the last part of the hood you see before it drops off completely. It's a big car but doesn't feel particularly massive. The gauge cluster is digital and has a bunch of customizable menus. Most are standard vehicle information; do you want the digital speedo in MPH or KMH? What's my current fuel mileage? How far did I go on Trip A? How many hours does the motor have on it? What is the instantaneous G load? What is my peak g load? How fast did I do the 1/8mile? How fast did I do the 1/4mile? What is my 60-0 braking? Ralph Gilles isn't the Dad who tells you to have his daughter to have you home by midnight; he's the Dad who gives you a 12 pack of condoms, a bottle of wild turkey, the keys to his car, and tells you that he doesn't want you to bring his daughter back, he wants a phone call to come post bail for the both of you.  The new Viper, for as nice as it is, is still a clown car. It is not a vehicle, it is an experience. Lighting off the motor sounds like the high pitched whine of a lambo V12 starter followed by a huge PHWOOOM as the V10 explodes into life. I accidentally had my foot partially on the throttle during start up and it emitted a huge backfire which sounded awesome and probably woke up everyone in my building. It has traction control that makes things easy and livable, like a rain mode that cuts power, reigns in the slip angles, and makes it even easier to manage. And even normal mode is unobtrustive but there's a button on the steering wheel that disables it when you hold it for a little bit. But you hold the button down for a few seconds, a message flashes up that ESC is off. From then on, there's no big sign. There's no "Whoa can you handle this?" Every run I left the car idling and before I went out I had to remember to look to see if ESC was still off. Right below the oil temp there was a little Dodge Viper leaving flaming burnout lines behind it. That is the ECS off symbol. There's a launch control button on the wheel too, it's closer to your thumb than the ESC button. If you don't bring up the revs fast enough or disable it, the car calls you a pussy. You should feel bad. Why would you push the button and not do it? Huh? Scared? I've been told the launch isn't particularly fast using launch control, mostly smokey. The engine backfires a lot. It is tuned to backfire even on small rev blips. The motor constantly backfires off throttle from 2000rpm to idle. Every time you drive a Gen V viper like an rear end in a top hat, Ralph Gilles gets his wings doing the worlds sickest burnout in a daycare center parking lot in a HellCat. I get the point out and away we go. The shifter is the same TR-6060 unit as the Z06 but it has a different configuration as it's not running into a transaxle. The already spectacular transmission feels even better in the Viper, much tighter and crisper. The pivot point for the shifter is off center of the transmission tunnel, the height of the shifter changes depending on the gates you are in. It seems weird when you're not driving but feels right at home when you are. They're still tightly spaced and I attempt to start the car in third again. The Viper clutch is also a bit different, it has a very long engagement which clouds if you're in the wrong gear or just being a doofus. It doesn't matter though, there's still prodigious torque and starting in third or fifth are trivial. The starter reminds me to keep the car pointed in the right direction this run. I spun within the first 20 seconds of my second run out when I decided to see how the car would fare in first gear and it didn't go well. It's the engine braking. It's absolutely mental. It is complete and utter savagery with how much there is and how quickly it ramps up. I was told by a first gen driver to stay in the throttle and just brake with your left foot when you need to, otherwise it will spin the car. The first time he learned that was on an offramp in 3rd gear. Every generation does that, he tells me. That's some DNA right there. Snakebite.  I get the go ahead, the long clutch pedal makes launching a bit interesting as there isn't really a bite point as there is a bite zone. Instead of doing what you do with most cars and setting an RPM and controlling the wheelspin with the clutch, the viper is the opposite. You set an RPM, begin engaging the clutch until full engagement, and manage wheel spin with the throttle. Get it right and you will wonder if you latched the hood down correctly because it looks like the engine is trying to tear its way out as the clamshell shakes violently while the 355mm rear tires start scrambling to deal with the amount of power coming through. Coming from the Z06, the OHV motor in the Viper feels odd. The power doesn't swell, it surges. While you have all the torque in the world from idle to 4k, once you hit 4000 and start approaching 5000 there is a noticeable torque ramp up as the car switches from obscenely fast to warp speed ahead. It feels like going into plaid. The intake starts dominating the cabin with the sound of the worlds most pissed off snake hissing. An agricultural V10 blat is screaming from the exhaust a foot below your head. A big red snake appears in the the tachometer to tell you it is time for second. You lift for the gear change and a giant backfire erupts from the exhaust. The 8.4L is insanely responsive, and I don't mean "wow it revs fast for an 8.4L motor", it's the most responsive motor in a street car I have encountered in terms of throttle and eagerness to pick up revs. It is fantastic. I turn in for the right hander and then an immediate left, the steering is heavily boosted due to the 295 width fronts. The steering is sharp, and very fast. It weights up but it's more of a "this will stick" than any actual road feel. There is prodigious amounts of grip. There is prodigious amounts of everything. I'm under instruction to take it easy on the car, not a Sunday drive but not a full 10/10ths. I keep wide on cones and don't try to pile it in but even when I begin to probe, it is just sublime. The car has no real handling gotchas aside from the engine braking. The rear doesn't aggressively oversteer, the front doesn't have terminal understeer. It is easy to be very very precise in this car. Sweet jesus this thing handles really well. It's a Viper that doesn't want to kill you. It doesn't feel like your in a shed while the world is exploding, more like sitting in a Penthouse on Fifth Avenue in Manhattan watching the world explode outside while you're sipping on a Martini. We come off the rear runway with a hard right hander; this catches out all big power RWD cars. It tricks you into wanting to get on the throttle too much too early. The Viper dives forward on the brakes in a straight line, then happily points towards the apex as I trail brake it in. It has the same problem as the Corvette, if you try to drive too fast into a corner, which is extremely easy, you will be pushing wide. The Viper handles going in too hot in a much friendlier manner though. Approaching the grip limits of the car is superbly easy but managing it in transitions is where it becomes a bit tricky, mainly because the base suspension spring/damper setup is atrocious. The spring rates are actually pretty mild and the compression damping isn't too bad, so the car gets a good amount of weight transfer. After the turn we are hitting midrange RPM in second and approaching a slalom fast. The best way into most slaloms is come in hot at an angle, brake once you're past the first cone towards the second and complete braking right when you're turning for the second cone. Devens isn't particularly bumpy place but I've never felt a car skip around so much. The rebound setting is just awful. Really, really awful. Far too much rebound. The car itself is well composed but due to the rebound, it takes on a very skittish and nervous feeling at the limit which doesn't inspire much confidence for placement. I didn't trust that the car wasn't going to be skipping around at the limit. Not that it would spin, but placing it where you want it becomes questionable. This carries over into how fast you can drive it, and getting it into the slalom quickly was not easy. The car responds well to things like trail braking where it is unnervingly stable while in second. In first, trail braking is a death sentence. I suspect the car would have been several seconds faster leaving it in first with with TC on solely because it will cut engine braking when the rear becomes unstable. Once you're out of first though, the rear never feels like it's going to come out and bite you. There was a hard, straight brake zone before a low speed left that I was slowly but surely using to grind these little air flaps in front of the front tires into complete oblivion. The brakes are easy to modulate and there is apparently a never ending supply of front end grip for them. We come in, the time wasn't the best mostly due to the aforementioned suspension and unwillingness to push past 9/10ths in someones brand new Viper but every single person who rode with me said a variation of the same thing, "This thing is mean as gently caress", "This car is savage", "That was insane". The difference is now that the car is actually fast rather than just a tilt a whirl. The Viper sits parked outside my apartment on the street. I return to find a pack of guys staring at the car, taking photos of it, taking selfies with it. They gawk at it. They look at it like a piece of meat. They don't know what it is. One of them figures it out and says, "But it's a loving Dodge. I wouldn't spend 80k on a Dodge." The rest agree. "I would buy a 911 for 80k" one of them says, "It's nicer." He's missing the point of the Viper, I think to myself. I should let them know. I straighten my wife beater and tuss my blow out hairstyle. I walk over and they look down at the aluminum bat I have in my hand. "You talking poo poo bout my Viper?" I ask them, "I don't think you understand what a Viper is about. Let me show you some snakebite" as I start swinging for the fences. Muffinpox fucked around with this message at 06:04 on Aug 12, 2015 |
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Aug 12, 2015 03:30
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Muffinpox posted:Brunton Super stal... what's that.... OH GOD SNAKEBITE  nailed it.The standard SRT suspension on his car is awful awful awful compared to the Bilsteins. The springs are way stiffer but the damping is much better, keeping the car from skipping around. You won't believe just how much faster that thing really is until the suspension is sorted out. The bit about the blonde had me laughing out loud, too. Brilliant writeup.
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Aug 12, 2015 05:36
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DV's blue would go so much better with the painter's tape. In hindsight, the Z06 was, through and through, a driver's car first. Outside of atrocious rear bump steer, the car was dynamically  . The motor was a goddamn marvel of sound and power delivery, even if the revs hung a bit driving around town.The Viper is not a driver's car. It is not a sports car. Its most important trick is molding the promise of violent acceleration into car form, presenting a stick of dynamite for you to light. The Viper draws you in. Your thrill-seeking is like a seal's instinct to swim right on the tail of a Great White. If American muscle cars are theater, then the Viper is a brutal sideshow tribute to the artform. I have to get up in 4 hours for a big conference, but I'm still sitting on the fence about grabbing the key and driving. e: drove it  Still surprising how fast it is.
kimbo305 fucked around with this message at 10:35 on Aug 12, 2015 |
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Aug 12, 2015 08:26
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Isn't a backfire when you get flame out the intake? That doesn't sound like what you're describing. 
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Aug 12, 2015 10:18
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Muffinpox posted:I BET YOU'RE THE ONE WHO DESIGNED THE E36 M3 MANUAL YOU SICK SON OF A BITCH. God, I wish I were responsible for all of those money shifts.
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Aug 12, 2015 14:10
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Muffinpox posted:The Viper sits parked outside my apartment on the street. I return to find a pack of guys staring at the car, taking photos of it, taking selfies with it. They gawk at it. They look at it like a piece of meat. They don't know what it is. One of them figures it out and says, "But it's a loving Dodge. I wouldn't spend 80k on a Dodge." The rest agree. "I would buy a 911 for 80k" one of them says, "It's nicer." He's missing the point of the Viper, I think to myself. I should let them know. I straighten my wife beater and tuss my blow out hairstyle. I walk over and they look down at the aluminum bat I have in my hand. "You talking poo poo bout my Viper?" I ask them, "I don't think you understand what a Viper is about. Let me show you some snakebite" as I start swinging for the fences. Tremendous stuff. You should send it to Gilles and film the next commercial.
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Aug 12, 2015 14:23
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Raluek posted:Isn't a backfire when you get flame out the intake? That doesn't sound like what you're describing. What they're doing is overlapping the combustion and exhaust cycles slightly, so that some of the fuel gets burnt in the pipe on the way to the cat. It's a bit like a controlled misfire. Although the main reason is because there's something childlishly delightful about a car that goes BANG! every time you lift off at high revs or change gear, it also apparently helps emissions by burning off more nitrogen compounds in the exhaust. There's a short piece about how (and why) Jaguar did it with the F-Type here: http://articles.sae.org/12441/
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Aug 12, 2015 15:02
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Das Volk posted:
Yep, even with the terrible dampers it was still really quick, the only cars on street tires that were faster all had autocross tires and suspension. The bit about the blonde actually happened, I laughed so hard when she said it. Raluek posted:Isn't a backfire when you get flame out the intake? That doesn't sound like what you're describing. It's colloquially used to refer to exhaust as well. Seat Safety Switch posted:
Except for the confrontation, this also happened.
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Aug 12, 2015 17:51
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Muffinpox posted:I straighten my wife beater and tuss my blow out hairstyle. I walk over and they look down at the aluminum bat I have in my hand. "You talking poo poo bout my Viper?" I ask them, "I don't think you understand what a Viper is about. Let me show you some snakebite" as I start swinging for the fences. You and Seat Safety Switch should write a movie script. AI: The Movie
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Aug 12, 2015 20:55
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Muffinpox posted:PM me, I'm willing to fly around to drive any cars people want to offer up! I'm gonna try to make it to TN in sept for some M3s. If you're around SC, your welcome to run my e46 m3 manual. FS car on RS-3 V2s. Currently running 3rd in my regions pro class.
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Aug 12, 2015 21:43
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