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computer parts posted:The BNP polled similarly in 2010 UK. Because a political party and a terrorist group are equivalent? I guess I'm #FeelingTheBern of your edgy posting.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:45
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Sinestro posted:Because a political party and a terrorist group are equivalent? I guess I'm #FeelingTheBern of your edgy posting. They're literally the bad guys from V for Vendetta, so yes.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:47
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Sinestro posted:Because a political party and a terrorist group are equivalent? I guess I'm #FeelingTheBern of your edgy posting. I think his point was that nobody would seriously state that the BNP make up a significant portion of the British electorate, and that therefore making the very small portion of ISIS supporters out to be a significant portion of Muslims is equally ridiculous. I hope this helps!
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Jul 5, 2015 06:48
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A larger percentage of Americans oppose interracial marriage. That's the same percentage of the popular vote that Ralph Nader won in 2000. 3% is completely unsurprising and I would have expected it to be slightly higher, even. If you think 3% is a big deal, 97% opposing ISIS is a much, much bigger deal. I'm pretty sure you could get 3% support for Hitler among Germans today. This is a completely insignificant number and not indicative of anything seriously interesting.
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Jul 5, 2015 06:54
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Oh Exclamation Marx, you are the Mod of my heart. 
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Jul 5, 2015 06:55
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Hey guys, be sure to NOT study ANY political, socio-economic or historical events and how international powers and the dictators they propped up turned the middle east into what it is today, also politics and history, Local factors and players, and colonialism and everything else that might explain factually how things became what it is today. Just throw that poo poo in the trash. if facts and figures start climbing into your head, remember to chant this motto over and over:- "Islam is bad. Muslims are evil (ignore the ones who were calling for democracy western or russian allies helped crush their hopes for peaceful transistion). I'm an idiot who doesn't read anything." Good luck! Al-Saqr fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 07:25
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Volkerball posted:I've decided to make this thread so people can finally The follow up interview with Bernard Haykel, the expert cited in The Atlantic article. What The Atlantic Left out About ISIS According To Their Own Expert This follow up interview confirmed my initial suspicions that Wood had misrepresented Haykel. Personally what angered me about the original article was that someone in the mainstream media was finally examining ISIS/AQ has a Salafi Takfiri phenomena BUT was also attempting to position them as representative of normative Sunnism. Anyway the above interview also contains links to interviews and articles relevant to authoritativeness of Wood's original article. While I'm here I'll leave links to interviews with a major Syrian Sunni alim, Shaykh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi regarding Syria, JaN, ISIS, sectarianism and what the Sunni response is and should be. Sheikh Muhammad al-Yaqoubi Interviewed by Syria Comment Sheikh Muhammas al-Yaqoubi Responds to al-Julani's al-Jazeera Interview This last article by Mohammad Fadel assumes a particular level of knowledge but it's the most nuance piece for it's length that I've read. The cliff notes are that the historical institutional expressions of Sunni Islam have collapsed since the colonial period and haven't been replaced with anything meaningful, leaving a vacuum that extremists have flooded. ISIS, Islamophobia and the End of Sunnism
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Jul 5, 2015 07:46
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I am honestly wondering about something here. I can name only 3 countries where the muslims are the majority and in wich there are currently no big episodes of violence linked to religous extremists. Thats Oman, Malaysia and Brunei. I'm sure theres more?
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Jul 5, 2015 13:23
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Al-Saqr posted:Hey guys, be sure to NOT study ANY political, socio-economic or historical events and how international powers and the dictators they propped up turned the middle east into what it is today, also politics and history, Local factors and players, and colonialism and everything else that might explain factually how things became what it is today. Just throw that poo poo in the trash. Maybe all religions even Islam are evil. Makes you think. GyverMac posted:I am honestly wondering about something here. I can name only 3 countries where the muslims are the majority and in wich there are currently no big episodes of violence linked to religous extremists. Thats Oman, Malaysia and Brunei. I'm sure theres more? Yeah and murder rates skyrocket whenever ice cream sales go up. Must be some kind of connection there too.
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Jul 5, 2015 13:25
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GyverMac posted:I am honestly wondering about something here. I can name only 3 countries where the muslims are the majority and in wich there are currently no big episodes of violence linked to religous extremists. Thats Oman, Malaysia and Brunei. I'm sure theres more? ...Morocco, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Tadzikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan...Albania, Bahrain, UAE, Burkina Faso, Comoros, Djibouti, Gambia, Guinea....Jordan, Kosovo, Maldives, Niger, Senegal, Turkey....I'm also sure there is more.
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Jul 5, 2015 13:36
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DarkCrawler posted:...Morocco, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Tadzikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan...Albania, Bahrain, UAE, Burkina Faso, Comoros, Djibouti, Gambia, Guinea....Jordan, Kosovo, Maldives, Niger, Senegal, Turkey....I'm also sure there is more. Err more than half of the countries on your list have Muslim terrorists blowing up poo poo.
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Jul 5, 2015 13:41
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DarkCrawler posted:...Morocco, Azerbaijan, Uzbekistan, Tadzikistan, Turkmenistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan...Albania, Bahrain, UAE, Burkina Faso, Comoros, Djibouti, Gambia, Guinea....Jordan, Kosovo, Maldives, Niger, Senegal, Turkey....I'm also sure there is more. Okay thanks. shrike82 posted:Err more than half of the countries on your list have Muslim terrorists blowing up poo poo. And several of them are super oppressive dictatorial regimes. EDIT: Haha, what? Thats not what I meant you strawman using idiot. Oppressive regimes foster resent wich provides a breeding ground for extremism. Like, you know, whats currently making Syria into one of the worst hellholes in the world at the moment. Or the chinese communist regimes oppression of the Uighurs. It was meant as a possible explanation for religious extremism, not a "durr all muslims are bad" comment. VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV GyverMac fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 13:47
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You see, Islamic dictators are awful because Islam. Christian and Atheist dictators were just aberrations of society, not real representatives of the things they professed to believe.
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Jul 5, 2015 14:06
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Ghost of Reagan Past posted:A larger percentage of Americans oppose interracial marriage. computer parts posted:The BNP polled similarly in 2010 UK. It must be weird going through life with no sense of degree or scale ----------------
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Jul 5, 2015 14:23
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shrike82 posted:Err more than half of the countries on your list have Muslim terrorists blowing up poo poo. Which ones?
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Jul 5, 2015 14:28
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GyverMac posted:I am honestly wondering about something here. I can name only 3 countries where the muslims are the majority and in wich there are currently no big episodes of violence linked to religous extremists. Thats Oman, Malaysia and Brunei. I'm sure theres more? Correlation != causation. Is there a single Muslim-majority country with a government more than a hundred years old? Entire continents were ruined by Western imperialism.
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Jul 5, 2015 15:35
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That animism sure makes Indians shoot an arrow at me, while I'm exterminating their game animals. *pulls arrow from hat* What gives man? You need to quit loving around with such a violent religion.
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Jul 5, 2015 15:56
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If 97% of muslims do not view ISIS positively, you would think there would at least be a decent amount headed to the middle east to fight against ISIS. The fact that this hasn't happened at all makes me question polls like these.
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Jul 5, 2015 16:32
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Fanatics always attract more fighters than moderates.
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Jul 5, 2015 16:34
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L-Boned posted:If 97% of muslims do not view ISIS positively, you would think there would at least be a decent amount headed to the middle east to fight against ISIS. The fact that this hasn't happened at all makes me question polls like these. Do you view ISIS positively? Why are you not in the middle east fighting them?
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Jul 5, 2015 16:34
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L-Boned posted:If 97% of muslims do not view ISIS positively, you would think there would at least be a decent amount headed to the middle east to fight against ISIS. The fact that this hasn't happened at all makes me question polls like these. I'm sorry but this has to be a joke argument.
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Jul 5, 2015 16:37
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Narciss posted:It must be weird going through life with no sense of degree or scale I could probably find greater numbers of people (both % and absolute) in the US who want to establish a Christian theocracy.
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Jul 5, 2015 16:49
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L-Boned posted:If 97% of muslims do not view ISIS positively, you would think there would at least be a decent amount headed to the middle east to fight against ISIS. The fact that this hasn't happened at all makes me question polls like these. Do you want to fight ISIS? I don't. Is it their job to fight them?
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Jul 5, 2015 17:12
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L-Boned posted:If 97% of muslims do not view ISIS positively, you would think there would at least be a decent amount headed to the middle east to fight against ISIS. The fact that this hasn't happened at all makes me question polls like these. There's already tens of thousands in the Middle East who don't have a choice about fighting or dying. The reason there's not a "decent amount" (whatever that is) heading there from, say, Indonesia is that there's no cohesive anti-ISIS movement trying to recruit them. Stop being disingenuous.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:17
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Xandu posted:There might be (probably not as much in English since most English analysis of Jihadi material is written by non-Muslims), but while this is interesting in some ways, I also think you have to take a step back and ask if it even matters. Religion evolves and changes and can't simply be defined by what's in a book, even though that's what most adherents will tell you. There's plenty of violent, awful stuff in the Qur'an, just as there is in other religious texts. More important is how it's interpreted, and most "manistream" Muslims will downplay the violence, etc because it's not important to their understanding of Islam. I come from the standpoint that people are generally evil and don't really need a reason to kill, maim, torture, etc. Any unifying idea such as religion or some other ideology can always be twisted to support what a person really wants such as power, money, etc. So, I understand what you are saying. I am not a scholar of comparative religion or sociology or anything and don't have to tools to really analyze things myself. I am mostly looking for a scholarly work which looks at the claims made by salafists or individuals and measures the degree of textual or historic support. I'm not looking to see whether modern Muslims would be considered "true Muslims" or whether they should believe a certain way based upon the texts. I don't have to draw any conclusions based on the analysis I am just interested. I see that Islam is like other religions in that they have a great number of differences across regions, etc. and am fascinated by things such as the Zaidis, Ibadis, Sufis, etc. just as I am with the various Christian and Jewish groups that have sprung up over thousands of years. Many times I notice that groups try to go back to source texts and reinterpret them for a certain place/time and the results mostly depend on the people interpreting rather than the texts. I'd be interested to know how the modern salafists fit in with historical understandings of Islam. Are they a historic aberration and is their theology based on unique and spurious claims or is there something that they are referring which has historical precedence? I appreciate some of the links so far and am reading my way through them.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:17
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I've heard their ideology is quite similar to the Kharijites, but I don't know how well that holds up beyond the belief that it's important to kill the poo poo out of kuffar. I do know ISIS apologists despise that comparison, and have written big long articles to try and disassociate themselves from the Kharijites.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:22
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kustomkarkommando posted:Do you view ISIS positively? Why are you not in the middle east fighting them? I have once already. Also, I am not muslim.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:26
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Just for reference for that study to be correct 3% of Muslims support Isis they would have to have interviewed 1,500,000 people for 99% accuracy with a margin of error or confidence interval of .1%. Even if you went with a 95% and a 5% margin of error you'd still have to interview like 30,000 people. Basically that study is bullshit. To get accurate results for a population that size would require thousands of hours of interviews. You may as well as asked " Does the Quran require you to pray?" and gotten the same amount. Complete. Bullshit. Study. Hollismason fucked around with this message at 17:28 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 17:26
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L-Boned posted:I have once already. Also, I am not muslim. The FSA doesn't pay quite as well, and they issue a ziploc bag for an LBE.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:29
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So, basically the majority of countries would rather bomb Houthi rebels than deal with ISIS. I get the whole Shia vs. Sunni thing, but it is sad that Sunnis turn a blind eye to ISIS as long as it furthers their cause.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:33
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Main Paineframe posted:Correlation != causation. Is there a single Muslim-majority country with a government more than a hundred years old? Entire continents were ruined by Western imperialism. Morocco and Turkey. Brunei if you squint (the sultanate survived as a UK protectorate).
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Jul 5, 2015 17:33
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Obliterati posted:Morocco and Turkey. Brunei if you squint (the sultanate survived as a UK protectorate). Turkey's not quite 100 years.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:35
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L-Boned posted:So, basically the majority of countries would rather bomb Houthi rebels than deal with ISIS. I get the whole Shia vs. Sunni thing, but it is sad that Sunnis turn a blind eye to ISIS as long as it furthers their cause. I'm pretty sure there's not one country in the Saudi coalition in Yemen that isn't also in the US coalition to bomb ISIS. And there's several more on top of that.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:38
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computer parts posted:Turkey's not quite 100 years. Meh, close enough? But yes, you're right. Turkey formed in 1923, so is a little short of the target.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:39
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L-Boned posted:So, basically the majority of countries would rather bomb Houthi rebels than deal with ISIS. I get the whole Shia vs. Sunni thing, but it is sad that Sunnis turn a blind eye to ISIS as long as it furthers their cause. Like a dozen Sunni Grand Muftis have publicly condemned ISIS. Most of the Muslims being murdered by ISIS are Sunnis, and most of the Muslims fighting them are Sunnis. But what actual Muslims say and do doesn't seem to matter unless you don't like it, so hey.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:41
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Abner Cadaver II posted:Like a dozen Sunni Grand Muftis have publicly condemned ISIS. Most of the Muslims being murdered by ISIS are Sunnis, and most of the Muslims fighting them are Sunnis. Actions speak louder than words. The governments can condemn them all they want, but while thousands of their citizens join ISIS and huge amounts of money go to fund ISIS, I can't take their stance seriously. The only countries in the region (or ethnic groups) actively fighting ISIS are Iran, Syria, Kurds, and, I guess, Iraq. Edit: Honestly, and I can't really fault them, ISIS is a convenient meat grinder for them to get rid of this dissidents.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:52
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L-Boned posted:Actions speak louder than words. The governments can condemn them all they want, but while thousands of their citizens join ISIS and huge amounts of money go to fund ISIS, I can't take their stance seriously. The only countries in the region (or ethnic groups) actively fighting ISIS are Iran, Syria, Kurds, and, I guess, Iraq. 
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Jul 5, 2015 17:57
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Abner Cadaver II posted:Like a dozen Sunni Grand Muftis have publicly condemned ISIS. Most of the Muslims being murdered by ISIS are Sunnis, and most of the Muslims fighting them are Sunnis. I think that'd have to require a number on how many SAA, Shia militiamen, Iraqi Army personnel, and iranian guards are fighting vs some FSA troops and Kurds.
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Jul 5, 2015 17:58
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the entity known as ISIS is an instance of a contagious cultural psychosis. We have seen this many times- Nazism, Stalinizm, Maoism, Juche ( North Korea) and Pol Pot's Cambodia (the model for Kim's Juche). They are all the same category of entity. It is a disease- an infection of malicious memes. How do you stop disease? -Quarantine- -Immunization- -Sterilization. Reference this paper- http://jom-emit.cfpm.org/1998/vol2/lynch_a.html It is quite technical but thorough. "Thought contagion" is the operative term. I once found a concise paper describing this phenomenon specifically using Nazism as an an example but I can no longer find it. All diseases either kill the host or go into remission. I expect ISIS will suffer the former. Their creed is unable to allow the creation of a stable society. They will presently implode, I 'spect. They ain't got the brains to maintain infrastructure or keep the lights on, and- Who will grow the food? Farmers don't like to work at gunpoint, as Mao found out. ... The Thousand Year Reich endured for eleven years. I give these animals two more years at the outside. It can be compared to an infestation of zombies. zimboe fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 18:02
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zimboe posted:the entity known as ISIS is an instance of a contagious cultural psychosis. Does ISIS have the oil revenue to make up for their shortfalls? I agree that they lack the expertise to govern their territories through anything other than brute force.
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Jul 5, 2015 18:08
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