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Rigged Death Trap posted:Perhaps the same could be said of all religions! Yeah basically. Given that Christianity (to take just one example) has varied between the crusades and pacifism, the prosperity gospel and liberation theology, chattel slavery and abolitionism and more, it's not clear to me why, even if it were to be demonstrated that X ISIS position follows fairly directly from some authority and requires interpretive gymnastics to avoid, this should be considered important to non-Muslims. The claim that Islam is inherently bad in some fashion requires a great deal of legwork beyond just pointing to how you prefer to interpret chunks of Islamic theology and history. I find the wandering preacher on the corner far more Christlike than the Pope - but so what? And given how islamophobia is a major vector of bigotry in the modern West, anyone who wants to claim it had better put in that legwork first before carrying water for racists. Peel fucked around with this message at 23:27 on Jul 4, 2015 |
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Jul 4, 2015 23:24
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I absolutely love the Crusades. Every time, every single time you get someone oozing out of the woodwork to whine that they did it too, miss, as if that wasn't the very point being advanced.
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Jul 4, 2015 23:50
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Narciss posted:Hindus and Buddhists never overran a third of the known world in violent conquest after founding their religion. They may form violent sects and butcher Muslims in their own country, but I'm having trouble thinking of holy wars that took place on anywhere near the same scale as the Islamic conquests. The closest I can think of are the crusaders in the pagan slavic/baltic states. What's your point?
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Jul 4, 2015 23:51
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tsa posted:I'm not sure I've ever heard the phrase "christianphobe" used here, even though the (numerous) threads on it are far more critical and insulting of the religion than any thread on Islam. It's strange how Islam seems to be currently singled out as the only belief system that isn't to be questioned or debated. People make fun of 'reddit atheists' all the time, but more importantly, there isn't a large body of opinion in the superpower and its allies that supports invading and brutalising Christian countries and propping up bloodsoaked dictators on the grounds of holding off the threat of The Christians. See also: white people, racism against (also, you know, domestic islamophobia) Peel fucked around with this message at 12:47 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 12:35
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bitey posted:“Islamophobia” is usually used to describe western anti-muslim bigots. What a waste of a perfectly good word. The armies fighting ISIS and the refugees fleeing ISIS are both full of Muslims.
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Jul 13, 2015 14:28
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Nobody is pretending that many Muslims don't have illiberal views, that would be absurd (note, however, the wide variation of views even in your posted survey). The objection is to the idea that this represents an essential problem in some kind of well-defined object 'Islam', typically allied to policy prescriptions of excluding and targeting Muslims in Western countries and blowing up or tyrannising Muslims in non-Western countries, until Islam is either destroyed or has been sufficiently 'encouraged' to 'reform'. I wouldn't claim this sort of hostile attitude is exclusively directed at Islam - you see some lurid stuff in American liberal fantasising about the South - but when directed at Muslims it has teeth (and dollars, and bombs), so becomes a more pressing problem. See also: the absence of White History Month.
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Jul 13, 2015 15:04
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Sethex posted:This view rests on the false notion that US foreign policy is influenced by Islam's features when I don't think that is an important factor. I don't think it's actually caused by Islam's features at all, though contemporary Islamic extremism is certainly making things worse. European (and post-European) Islamophobia is more than a millennium old. It also doesn't have to be about the American or European public directly, though they help. Senior foreign policy, military, economic and other elite figures are as moulded by these views as anyone else. And popular islamophobia certainly contributes to domestic oppression and alienation of Muslims. I think the OP actually has quite a sensible view of Muslims (he really hates Iran but doesn't see it as the avatar of Shiism any more than he does Israel of Judaism) but wanted to present two views to promote a debate and siphon it out of the ME thread. This is based on my reading him in the ME thread though, not the content of the OP.
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Jul 13, 2015 22:54
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I don't think the details of who did what when and whether it 'counts' in the 1400 or so years of conflict between Christian and Islamic societies really matters. Just that that history exists as a background to contemporary Islamphobia rather than it being a novel negative reaction to a religion Christendom and its successors suddenly discovered 14 years ago.
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Jul 14, 2015 19:58
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I'm shocked, shocked, that the holy text of this religion condemns people who scoff at it.
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Aug 10, 2015 00:19
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'tumblrina' is at least a change of pace from 'SJW'.
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Sep 13, 2015 18:02
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Immortan posted:Mexicans aren't bringing terrible ideas and theocracy with them. Look at this naive tumblrina who's never heard of papal monarchy.
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Sep 13, 2015 19:27
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I'm serious guys. We've found it at last. I know we've had some false alarms in the past but for real this immigrant group is the unassimilable cancer that will destroy western civilisation.
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Sep 13, 2015 19:41
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Sinestro posted:Well, and this is a theme that shows up a lot in this thread, but it's a case where the ones who are willing to adapt to modern culture are the ones who don't actually follow all the tenets of their religion. Even supposing we accept you appointing yourself the judge of true Islam, a position controversial enough when a Muslim claims to occupy it, it's not clear why this is relevant to anything at all.
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Sep 13, 2015 19:57
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Effectronica posted:
The presence of religious conservatives in Europe would cause liberalism to immediately collapse. As liberalism has not yet collapsed, there must be no religious conservatives in Europe.
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Sep 13, 2015 20:04
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Sinestro posted:
Yes, indeed. So what's the problem?
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Sep 13, 2015 20:15
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This is getting a bit mean so I will spell it out. Many immigrants to the west from non-western countries hold beliefs not in the mainstream of western liberalism. This is not news, nor is it especially alarming. Many natives of western countries hold beliefs not in the mainstream of western liberalism. To get from these trivial points to 'we will be destroyed by the [ethnicity] menace' requires 1. stereotyping and exaggeration of the immigrant group (racism), 2. a belief that the immigrant group is inherently different from other humans and cannot become a normalised part of society (racism) and 3. projection of transient demographic trends forward over several decades (stupid bullshit). These are not new arguments, they are very old, and everyone is well used to swatting them down. This is why people are making fun of them rather than engaging bright-eyed with the nth person to walk into the evolutionary biology thread to talk about what they saw at the Creation Museum. Peel fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Sep 13, 2015 |
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Sep 13, 2015 20:34
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