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Why is religion being considered separate from the society as a whole? Who gives a poo poo if a premodern enpire was motivated by religion or not? Why are the Umayyads worse than Alexander or Ghengis Khan? If you get stoned for adultery why is it worse if that is prescribed in a holy book vs being a secular law? Religion is simply one component of a society or culture and IMO it's very hard to separate it from those other components icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jul 5, 2015 |
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Jul 5, 2015 00:25
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Seriously though the fact that the Saudi government has retained American patronage for so many decades now while being a state constitutionally dedicated to opposing liberal democracy, is one of the funniest / most depressing things about the ME. It's like a loving Monty Python skit. Ultimately I don't think American ME policy will be fixed until and unless we tell Israel to gently caress off. The whole reason we back the Saudis is because they cooperate with Israel. Support for Israel and opposition to Wahhabism don't seem to be compatible, unfortunately icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 05:27
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Smoothrich posted:Seriously? Yes the USA should shift from a War on Terror to a War on Zionism. I'm sure Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, Intel, IBM, HP, Motorola, Amazon, etc to name some names won't mind the shift in policy. Iran sucks too. Here's an idea, don't support either. You don't see how it undermines your claim to support liberal democracy and human rights when you simultaneously throw money and guns at a Wahhabist theocracy as fast as you can to indirectly support an apartheid state because evangelical fundies have decided Israelis are of the same mold as they are? It's impossible to support both liberal values and the apartheid state, and the United States has loudly and clearly chosen the apartheid state icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 10:18 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 09:44
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Absurd Alhazred posted:You really can't think of a reason that the US is supporting KSA other than it playing nice with Israel? I can personally think of at least two things: one is a black liquid that runs your car, the other is a place where literally every Muslim is expected to visit at least once in their lives. Those too, and those strengthen my point. The US doesn't give a poo poo about liberal democracy or human rights, it gives a poo poo about cheap oil and about helping people we think are evangelical fundies like us to commit ethnic cleansing. It will be impossible for the US to effectually promote liberal democracy and human rights until it drops those things Like it's almost Kafka-esque that people are complaining that there's no liberal democracy in the ME as their own country does basically everything in its power to stamp liberal democracy out wherever it goes icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 18:16 on Jul 7, 2015 |
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Jul 7, 2015 18:13
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Rigged Death Trap posted:Small aside, thats a baller rear end mug. It's also a souvenir sold to support a terrorstic, theocratic paramilitary
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Jul 8, 2015 20:03
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Stalinist purges: A necessary component of liberal democracy
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Jul 8, 2015 23:15
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I wouldn't really consider pederasty / pedophilia to really count as a liberal, enlightened practice though. Goes for the Greeks/Romans and Muslims alike
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Jul 9, 2015 01:56
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Liberal_L33t posted:Again, let's flip this question around. Can anyone give me an example of a religious text (aside from maybe the Old Testament) which is less charitable to people of other faiths, talks more about waging war against them, levys more legal restrictions on them, or is more aggressive in its urges to proselytize? Let's look at history honestly here. Islam didn't spread by convincing people on an intellectual level. It was spread through a mix of military conquest and economic pressure, always very coercively, in sharp contrast to the organic growth of various pagan faiths, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. Sufism? What's that? Also, the Christian and Muslim scriptures are not comparable because the Christian scripture is a contradictory mess both in the literal text and in authorial intention, it requires further interpretation to produce a coherent religion out of it. It doesn't say "Kick all the Jews and Muslims out of your country and burn them at the stake if they stick around" in the Bible but that is what Pauline, Trinitarian, Nicene Christianity does, or did back when it had enough state power to do so. You can't equate Christianity with its scriptures because the scriptures alone don't produce a religion unlike with Islam. You could argue the only reason we don't execute people for heresy anymore is because we no longer live in Christian theocracies, but it doesn't make any sense to credit Christianity with that. icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Jul 10, 2015 |
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Jul 10, 2015 04:37
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Liberal_L33t posted:The American Party obviously had some racist and anti-democratic elements but dismissing them as one-dimensional villains or bedfellows of the KKK is an oversimplification. They were about as close to a mass progressive movement as mid-19th century America got. lel (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jul 10, 2015 05:09
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Narciss posted:Islam is a cynical religion created by a warlord-wannabe and has been used to drive violent conquest since the time of it's creation. I honestly do not have much respect for it. and Christianity is a cynical religion created by the state bureaucracy of the Roman Empire to justify its continued existence, and has also been used to drive violent conquest since its creation
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Jul 12, 2015 01:38
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Sinestro posted:Hoooly poo poo, there's a slight difference that I think you're glossing over. The romans sure loved Jesus, it's not like they did anything that would show something other than full support for Christ and his followers at any point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea quote:The First Council of Nicaea (/naɪˈsiːə/; Greek: Νίκαια [ˈni:kaɪja]) was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicaea in Bithynia by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in AD 325. This first ecumenical council was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire Yes, the Romans did love Jesus, if you think this is some sort of iceburn uhhhhhh icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 01:58 on Jul 12, 2015 |
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Jul 12, 2015 01:53
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Smoothrich posted:Say co-opted instead of created and maybe you could have a point. Pre-nicene Christianity was so internally fractured and divergent it shouldn't really be called a single religion or equated with modern christianity. Modern christianity, AKA the religion 99% of people ITT are discussing, is a Roman invention
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Jul 12, 2015 01:57
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There's still no reason to treat a nominally Muslim multiethnic empire like the Ottomans or Mughals any different from any other multiethnic empire. We know that premodern empires invaded stuff, that's a basic trait inherent to all of them, Islam or no, so how does them being Muslim constitute evidence of Muslims being especially warlike? What about the Spanish? The Russians? Britain remains to this day officially a Christian country, but their imperialism is unrelated to that?
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 19:57 on Jul 14, 2015 |
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Jul 14, 2015 19:53
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Smoothrich posted:Modern political militant Islam should be viewed, and dealt with, the same way as 20th century expansionist fascism. ISIS and friends are basically emulating the worst aspects of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. Bonzai bombers and industrial scaled ethnic cleansing with a sick ideological framework underpinning it all. You're right, the decentralized amorphous terrorist movement expanding into a power vacuum left by collapsing states is the same as two extremely strong, centralized states which started wars with other strong, centralized states
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Jul 17, 2015 17:24
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Not .... not really, no? Europe since the French Revolution has had strong states and brief, violent revolutions that change who runs the state. Russia was a strong state before its revolution and was a strong state afterwards, there was never any power vacuum. There was never a big tract of land with basically no government for people to set up camp in and throw poo poo at people from
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Jul 18, 2015 02:49
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Narciss posted:A major difference is that you could very credibly call yourself a Christian and reject the Old Testament and large swathes of the New Testament based on what you perceive as a lack of validity, given how the Christian Bible was compiled over a hundred years after Jesus' death from a wide variety of sources and whether or not you believe Jesus' teachings superseded Jewish law (like how Christians don't follow Jewish dietary practices). A Muslim cannot do the same for the Quran, although they can pick and choose their Hadiths. I'm pretty sure Pauline, Nicene Christianity (AKA what people are referring to when they say "Christianity") requires both the Old and New Testaments, regardless of what the average western Christian personally believes. Because that is the standard we're using here, remember
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Aug 2, 2015 02:14
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I don't know why anyone is bothering to argue with a guy who seriously says that you can summarily dismiss self-identified "Muslims" who don't follow ahadith they don't like, but insists that everyone who thinks positively of Jesus counts as a Christian. Unitarians, people who only use the gospels, whatever, are not "Christian" by the definition used for 2000 years. And as for religious law, for most of those 2000 years the Christian establishment considered it fine and dandy to have it and enforce it, including forced tithing, church attendance, fasting, and execution of heretics. You can argue that Islam is somehow less suited to dispense with the religious law, but to argue that Christianity doesn't have it is 100% false
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 19:45
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Narciss posted:We'd have hordes of mainstream Sunni muslims coming in, going "yup I'm *oppressed religious minority*" and then ghettoing it up in Dearborn, Michigan. Can we just make it bannable to say stuff like this icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Aug 3, 2015 |
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Aug 3, 2015 01:57
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Liberal_L33t posted:Traditionalist Islam cannot survive many generations as a cultural force without the support of authoritarian institutions, governmental or otherwise. Sooooo...... what's the problem, again? Just wait a while and it goes away
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Aug 3, 2015 08:34
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Which is why there are no Christian churches that sanction gay marriages, seeing as homosex is similarly condemned by normative Pauline Christianity
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Aug 3, 2015 18:06
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Once again, normative, Pauline, Nicene Christianity is not the same thing as the Bible. I'm not saying the Bible condemns homosex. I'm saying normative, Pauline, Nicene Christianity condemns homosex. What the Bible says is irrelevant. So it is an exactly comparable situation, because both normative Christianity and normative Islam condemn homosex. Do you understand?
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Aug 3, 2015 18:33
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Miltank posted:That Nicene Christianity exists as a separate entity from the bible is the entire point. Nicene Christianity is not the only Christianity nor is it the only conceivable Christianity. Islam with a fallible Koran is inconceivable- it undermines every conceivable narrative of the religion. Do you think that if someone self-identifies as a Muslim but doesn't follow the Quran to the letter they'll like fade out of existence Back to the Future style or like Time Cops will show up and drag them away?
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Aug 3, 2015 19:04
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http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/ It's interesting how in all of these charts, 100% of self-identified Muslims believe Sharia is following the Word of God, and 100% believe apostates should be executed. The 44% of Tunisians who do not support death for adultery as prescribed in the Quran, don't exist. You may think otherwise, but they don't. It's a tricky thing
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Aug 3, 2015 19:07
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Miltank posted:Some really nice irrelevant facts right there. "Facts are irrelevant to my arguments" -SA forums poster Miltank You literally said it was inconceivable for somebody to have a Muslim religious framework without 100% adherence to Quranic precepts. The people in this study don't do that? I'm sorry that the real world is biased against your argument or whatever?
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Aug 3, 2015 19:10
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Miltank posted:Those facts are irrelevant to my argument. There are many, many self-identified Muslims in the world who do not adhere 100% to normative Muslim behavior. Therefore, your argument that it's impossible for an adherent of the Muslim religion not to adhere 100% to normative Muslim behavior, is wrong.
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Aug 3, 2015 19:16
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_inerrancy This is the stupidest loving argument. Like literally sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "NO I WIN" over and over dumb
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Aug 3, 2015 19:18
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It's almost like the narrative of Islam (or any other religion) is irrelevant to the vast majority of people's behavior
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Aug 3, 2015 19:25
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Is this the part where you start rolling with the punches?
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Aug 3, 2015 19:26
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TheImmigrant posted:Religious governance is, almost by definition, incompatible with modernity, and the concept of secularism/laïcité seems anathema to the dominant strands of contemporary Islam. this is funny see, because outside of france turkey is one of the best examples of laicite. i guess just pretend one of the most important muslim middle eastern countries doesn't exist because it's inconvenient for your argument?
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Aug 4, 2015 01:26
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TheImmigrant posted:Turkey is not a Muslim state. It is a secular state whose population is overwhelmingly Muslim. Unfortunately, the secularism there is eroding. you said TheImmigrant posted:the concept of secularism/laïcité seems anathema to the dominant strands of contemporary Islam. So if normal, orthodox Sunnism is what is practiced in Turkey by the majority of the population, what gives????? Are the borders of Turkey some kind of magic artifact within which Sunni Islam can be practiced without fundamentalism and outside of which it cannot? Maybe the Turks are just Übermenschen with superior genetics? Smudgie Buggler posted:Like you similarly pretended major Christian denominations don't exist, you mean? yes, that's the joke. i'm saying christianity is no different from islam in terms of people following its normative rules. that is to say lots of self-id'd adherents don't 
icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 02:26 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 02:20
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TheImmigrant posted:You sound very indignant, but unsure why you are indignant. Stop sputtering, and think about it. It's not my job to formulate an argument for you. The arguments you've made thus far are easily, hilariously disprovable. So, get to work on the thinking yourself I guess? Or don't, and I'll keep calling out your arguments as dumb and wrong as long as you keep making them
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Aug 4, 2015 02:56
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PT6A posted:I realize that, but I don't understand it. What's the point of having a supreme being telling you what to do if you just stick your fingers in your ears for the bits you don't like? Cultural identity? If everyone you know, have ever known, will ever know, in addition to your entire family for generations, is religious, breaking with that leaves you with no social or familial identity or support. Basically https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWSoYCetG6A This is seriously the  -iest post. Lots and lots and lots of people, probably a large majority of religious people in both the West and in these countries, who don't really deep down believe in the prescribed articles of the religion, but who still identify as adherents because of tradition. Most people are not actually true believes, it's why zealots and fundies stand out as weirdos even in nominally religious societiesPT6A posted:Many Muslim fundamentalists have no problem saying that various backward cultural practices, like female genital mutilation, are endorsed by Islam; why, then, can['t] people who don't really believe all that strongly in Islam simply appropriate the parts of it they wish to practice under the guise of culture? It would be the same process working in reverse. I'm assuming that is supposed to be 'can't' not 'can' They can and do, this is what many nominally religious people do, in fact. They just don't bother to actively and vocally break with the religion's precepts icantfindaname fucked around with this message at 03:38 on Aug 4, 2015 |
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Aug 4, 2015 03:29
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It's an interpolation by far-right Wahabbist zealots, and yes Saudi Arabia pushes that hard
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Aug 8, 2015 16:26
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Sinestro posted:When it's a people that are largely homophobic, transphobic, misogynist and racist, then yes, the democratic instruments of Western Europe getting controlled by them is a disaster. it's cool how individuals under liberalism have rights regardless of whether they're homophobic, transphobic, misogynistic and/or racist. then again Europe has always had a shaky grip on liberal values, maybe it's time for thr US Army to come impose them again? we might have to throw some bits of eastern and central europe to the Russians again for their assistance, but oh well, that's realism for you
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Sep 13, 2015 20:04
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Sinestro posted:It's mostly the conception of the rule of law that's the issue. Salafi groups are incredibly widespread in the Sunni parts of the middle east, and support for Sharia law is present among French muslims. So far the actual threats to and rollback of liberal values in Europe have been 100% from nativist far-right movements, which makes it hilarious that people keep insisting that the Muslims will begin working to implement Sharia law and no-go zones the instant they set foot on pure white Christian soil, despite basically no examples of this being a thing. Do you think two gunmen in a supermarket are a greater threat to democracy than Jobbik?
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Sep 13, 2015 20:19
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CommieGIR posted:Most countries and states have laws against extralegal courts. Especially if said extralegal courts are trying to usurp laws against child marriage and multiple wives. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitration
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Sep 14, 2015 18:12
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CommieGIR posted:Arbitration =/= Marriage courts and licensing. Its also not extra-judicial and is overseen by the courts. Any sort of resolution decided in arbitration still has to be submitted and approved via a court clerk. wait what? an arbitration court is literally the definition of extrajudicial. it's overseen by the real courts in that the real courts have signed off on it, just like a sharia family law court. if you're going to run around with the goalposts on the exact jurisdiction of the extrajudicial courts vs the real ones i don't see why anyone should bother arguing with you. the statement you made about extrajudicial courts not being a thing is patently false, sorry dude
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Sep 14, 2015 19:10
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CommieGIR posted:Let me know when a real court in a Western country signs off on a Sharia court. Thanks in advance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Malaysia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Indonesia let's watch those goalposts fly
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Sep 14, 2015 19:49
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Narciss posted:You are such a drat baby. Are you capable of debating like an adult? You have to be debating with adults in order to debate like one CommieGIR posted:That's SouthEast Asia. That is also a country where Islam is the state religion. Thanks for playing! Oh poo poo the goalposts were already moved before you asked the question. How about you address your original comment that extrajudicial courts were not a thing in most countries? That was completely, 100% bullshit?
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Sep 14, 2015 19:52
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CommieGIR posted:You're right, my mistake. But it's not true in the US? And it's not true in Europe? Like I'm sorry you're this mad about the existence of arbitration courts, but uh, they're a real thing and have been for a long time
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Sep 14, 2015 19:56
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