Islam, ISIS, and You: Where are all these so-called "moderate" Muslims?

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Islam, ISIS, and You: Where are all these so-called "moderate" Muslims?

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

I've decided to make this thread so people can finally ~~gently caress off~~ get into this debate in a thread where it wouldn't be a derail for the first time ever. The topic is whether there is something fundamentally wrong with Islam that inherently creates terrorism. Today, that debate revolves around the lovely, regressive terrorist assholes we call ISIS, who are bringing about an unprecedented level of shittiness, regressiveness, and terroristness. As far as that goes, there are two articles I would consider must reads when it comes to understanding both sides of the debate.

The first, "What ISIS Really Wants," played a huge role in reigniting this debate, and was widely circulated. Its central thesis is that ISIS is a natural progression of Islam, as its creation is based around a group of zealots trying to follow a valid, perhaps the most valid, interpretation of Islamic Law. As such, we need to address the root of the problem, Islam, in some way, in order to truly deal with extremists like ISIS.

quote:

To take one example: In September, Sheikh Abu Muhammad al-Adnani, the Islamic State�s chief spokesman, called on Muslims in Western countries such as France and Canada to find an infidel and �smash his head with a rock,� poison him, run him over with a car, or �destroy his crops.� To Western ears, the biblical-sounding punishments�the stoning and crop destruction�juxtaposed strangely with his more modern-sounding call to vehicular homicide. (As if to show that he could terrorize by imagery alone, Adnani also referred to Secretary of State John Kerry as an �uncircumcised geezer.�)

But Adnani was not merely talking trash. His speech was laced with theological and legal discussion, and his exhortation to attack crops directly echoed orders from Muhammad to leave well water and crops alone�unless the armies of Islam were in a defensive position, in which case Muslims in the lands of kuffar, or infidels, should be unmerciful, and poison away.

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

Virtually every major decision and law promulgated by the Islamic State adheres to what it calls, in its press and pronouncements, and on its billboards, license plates, stationery, and coins, �the Prophetic methodology,� which means following the prophecy and example of Muhammad, in punctilious detail. Muslims can reject the Islamic State; nearly all do. But pretending that it isn�t actually a religious, millenarian group, with theology that must be understood to be combatted, has already led the United States to underestimate it and back foolish schemes to counter it. We�ll need to get acquainted with the Islamic State�s intellectual genealogy if we are to react in a way that will not strengthen it, but instead help it self-immolate in its own excessive zeal.

The second, The Clash of Civilizations That Isn't, was written as a response. It argues that believing ISIS is very Islamic, and acting accordingly, will make that a self-fulfilling prophecy, as ISIS' recruiting thrives on the belief that the West is on a crusade against Muslims.

quote:

Since 9/11, I�ve realized that, in the case of Islam, the forces that could make the clash of civilizations a self-fulfilling prophecy are particularly powerful. For one thing, in this case, our actual enemies, such as Al Qaeda and ISIS, themselves favor the clash-of-civilizations narrative, and do their best to encourage it. When the Atlantic tells us that ISIS is �very Islamic� and the New York Times runs the headline �Islam and the West at War,� it�s party time in Mosul. Order up another round of decapitations! Get Roger Cohen more freaked out! Maybe he�ll keep broadcasting a key recruiting pitch of both Al Qaeda and ISIS: that the West is at war with Islam! (Wood noted, a week after his article appeared, its �popularity among ISIS supporters.�)

People who insist on linking terrorism to Islam often say that only by doing this�only by seeing the problem �for what it is��can we figure out what to do about it. Really? Long before last week, we knew that ISIS does a good job of convincing some young Muslims that its cause is authentically Islamic. What value has been added if we grant Wood�s point that ISIS, in doing this job, can quote selectively from Islamic texts and point selectively to ancient Islamic traditions? I guess this helps us understand one rhetorical advantage that ISIS has in its recruiting. But since that particular advantage�what ancient texts say, what ancient people did�is something we can�t change, where do we go from there?

Which leads to what may be the biggest problem with the views conveyed by Cohen and Wood�especially as those views seep into Fox News and beyond and become further simplified, if not warped. When people think of extremism as some kind of organic expression of Islam, the belligerence of radical Muslims starts to seem like an autonomous, intrinsically motivated force�something whose momentum doesn�t derive from mundane socioeconomic and geopolitical factors. It�s something that you can stop, if at all, only with physical counter-force. In other words: by killing lots of people. I don�t think it�s a coincidence that commentators who dismiss attempts to understand the �root causes� of extremism tend to be emphatic in linking the extremism to Islam, and often favor a massively violent response to it.

So with all this in mind, what is the role, if any, that Islam plays in creating terrorism?

As a last note, this is not stormfront. If you intend to make a massive, sweeping generalizations about 1.6 billion people, one way or the other, back it up with a source. If you're going to make a claim about how many Muslims are or aren't sympathetic to ISIS' ideology, find a poll and post it, or shut up. They're out there. I promise. There's facts and there's stereotypes, and discussion is going to go a lot smoother if it's based around the former.

# ¿ Jul 4, 2015 22:41

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 22, 2024 17:33

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

I've heard their ideology is quite similar to the Kharijites, but I don't know how well that holds up beyond the belief that it's important to kill the poo poo out of kuffar. I do know ISIS apologists despise that comparison, and have written big long articles to try and disassociate themselves from the Kharijites.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2015 17:22

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

L-Boned posted:

I have once already. Also, I am not muslim.

The FSA doesn't pay quite as well, and they issue a ziploc bag for an LBE.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2015 17:29

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

L-Boned posted:

So, basically the majority of countries would rather bomb Houthi rebels than deal with ISIS. I get the whole Shia vs. Sunni thing, but it is sad that Sunnis turn a blind eye to ISIS as long as it furthers their cause.

I'm pretty sure there's not one country in the Saudi coalition in Yemen that isn't also in the US coalition to bomb ISIS. And there's several more on top of that.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2015 17:38

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

L-Boned posted:

Actions speak louder than words. The governments can condemn them all they want, but while thousands of their citizens join ISIS and huge amounts of money go to fund ISIS, I can't take their stance seriously. The only countries in the region (or ethnic groups) actively fighting ISIS are Iran, Syria, Kurds, and, I guess, Iraq.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2015 17:57

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Re: ISIS and the Khawarij, f you've got an hour to kill, I'm finding this really interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytoUfTsy7QA

The big thrust so far has been the things ISIS has done that are consistent with the Kharijites of old. One thing he mentions is how ISIS kidnapped Alan Henning and held him for ransom. Islamic scholars said that Henning should be released, but ISIS ignored them because you can't just go around releasing people and expect to get ransom in the future. So they executed him. While ISIS likely did this because of greed and the pursuit of personal gain, rather than any sort of Islamic reason, from an Islamic perspective, this subversion of the highest scholars of Islam is consistent with the Kharijite depictions.

quote:

The heresy of the Departers [Kharajites] was the first group of people who deviated from the pure and sublime faith of Islam. The first and worst of those who departed from the Sunni path was the Kharijī known as the Dhul-Khuwaisarah. The Companion Abu Sa`īd al-Khudrī (r) related, �Once Sayyidina `Alī (r) sent some gold ore wrapped in dyed leather from Yemen to the Prophet of Allah (s), and he divided it among four people: Zaid al-Khalīl, al-Aqra ibn Hābis, Unaiyna ibn Hisn and Alqamah ibn Ulāthah.

Then a man with sunken eyes, high check bones, protruding forehead, thick beard and a shaven head, stood up and said, �Muhammad! Fear Allah!� The Prophet (s) turned to him and replied, �Woe be to you, am I not the person who fears Allah (s.w) the most?� The man than walked away and Khālid ibn al-Walīd (r) jumped up and said, �Perhaps one who observes prayer says with his tongue what is not in his heart.� The Prophet (s) said, �I was not commanded to pierce the hearts of the people or slit open their bellies.�

He (s) glanced at the man who was walking away and said, �There will arise a people from among the progeny of this man who will recite the Qur'an but it will not go beyond their throats. They will pass through the religion as an arrow passes through its target.�

The cursed man was called Dhul-Khuwaisarah at-Tamīmī and he is considered the first of the Kharijī to arise in Islam. The root of his sickness was that he preferred his own opinion above that of the Prophet (s). If he had waited to hear what the Prophet (s) had to say, he would have realized that no opinion can be given precedence over that of The Prophet (s), and it was his individual's tribe men who later rose in arms against the fourth Khalipha Sayyidina `Alī ibn Abi Talib (r).

That sort of holier than thou arrogance is present in everything ISIS does, particularly when it comes to, as Alyas Karmani calls them, children, casually invoking takfir and jihad, which are reserved for the most learned of Islamic scholars. There's definitely a case to be made that ISIS are a manifestation of the Khawarij.

# ¿ Jul 5, 2015 19:19

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

TheImmigrant posted:

Another thing I have to say is that Islam, as practiced today, motivates far more violence than any other religion, as practiced today.

I don't agree with that. Islam is certainly used as a justification for violence far more often than any other religion, but I don't think that's the motivator. The motivator is political in almost all cases, typically in the name of fighting "oppression," real or imagined. The exceptions are things like Charlie Hebdo, but there's still political subtext in those situations as well.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2015 18:45

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

raise your hand if you've provided material support to hezbollah

# ¿ Jul 8, 2015 18:46

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

TheImmigrant posted:

Wow, that mug is the gift that keeps giving. The amount of support I provided Hezbollah with the purchase of a souvenir mug in Baalbek is de minimis, certainly not 'material.' It's still one of my favorite souvenirs ever.

I wasn't one of the ones who was appalled you bought it, but I'm not going to not give you poo poo about it.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2015 22:38

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

rudatron posted:

Yes. You have a point with an outside force being resisted simply because they are outsiders, that's a natural human thing to do. But you cannot have the revolution without the terror, the declaration of the rights of man without the committee of public safety. This was the mistake of the Egyptian people in the Arab Spring, they did not organize paramilitary forces to purge the 'deep state' of the military and, as a result, the deep state is still in power.

They largely didn't even recognize the deep state of the military when it came to overthrowing Mubarak. It doesn't matter what you do to fight if you aren't even looking at the right enemy.

# ¿ Jul 8, 2015 23:06

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

But enough about Islam.

# ¿ Jul 10, 2015 06:00

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Narciss posted:

Other people may have different arguments, but mine has been that Islam is a worse religion than Christianity (in terms of "which would I rather exist in the world today?") because it's Holy Book, handed down word-for-word from God himself, explicitly supports rape, murder, forced conversion, slavery, and all kinds of nasty stuff. Did Christians do all that too? Yes. I think it's much easier for those things to happen when a fifth of the world follows a religion whose unquestionable holy book supports them.

- a guy who's never read deuteronomy

Every holy book supports genocide, murder, slavery, and rape if you want to selectively read it. They were all written in a different time. But the overall message in all of them is peaceful, and that's becoming more and more accepted as time goes on.

# ¿ Jul 12, 2015 15:02

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

#radicalised is a hashtag where jihadists are explaining what "radicalized" them. it's fairly active and pretty interesting.

# ¿ Jul 15, 2015 01:05

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Abner Cadaver II posted:

I think the Shah was pretty much as bad as the current Iranian regime. What are we arguing?

From 1971-1979 100 political prisoners were executed in Iran. From 1980-1985, 8,000 were.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 03:47

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Miltank posted:

Like, how do you spin an imperfect Koran into Islamic doctrine? Christians can just say 'Paul was wrong' and its really no big deal.

What similar handwaving can Muslims pull off? That Muhammed interpreted the intentions of God incorrectly? That the Holy Koran was corrupted in its infancy? It could happen I suppose, but it will require a massive overhaul in dogma. Sure, followers now can just ignore whatever they want but people actually do like their religious narratives to be coherent enough to pass the slightest bit of scrutiny.

You're not supposed to say that. The bible is accepted as the unequivocal word of God, handed down directly from God. It's a cultural thing to discount certain parts as more or less word of God, not a religious one. You see the same thing in Islam where different people accept some collections of Hadith as true and discount others, which include huge things such as sharia law. There's no basis to your argument that the Quran is somehow inherently seen as more word of God to Muslims than the bible is to Christians.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 19:13

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Liberal_L33t posted:

On the contrary; the more that Islamic literalism gets associated with violent terrorist acts, the better.

How can you be so dumb? How can you have read these forums for so long and never learned one single thing? It's remarkable.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 19:38

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Sound great schizotek.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2015 05:44

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

It's always funny to me explaining to American Christians that Arab Christians say "allah akbar" as well.

# ¿ Aug 21, 2015 04:15

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Cat Mattress posted:

You got to hide their boobs.

Stoning is usually over adultery and Iran cares about boobs a lot, so that probably has something to do with it.

# ¿ Sep 12, 2015 11:39

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Most refugees in Germany are going to Christian churches to try and assimilate into German culture. They buy Dortmund and Bayern poo poo to wear around to show pride in their new home. But you really think they're going to bring Islamic extremism to Europe? Most of you talking don't have the slightest idea what these people are like. They're fleeing to get away from violence and hard times. They're not going to show up in Europe and immediately try to make life difficult for themselves by demanding sharia law or w/e. They just want to live their lives. And the second generation will be raised in Europe and will be westernized just like basically every other second generation Muslim in the west. These fears are based on ignorance, nothing else.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2015 20:23

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Sam Harris and Maajid Nawaz are live at Harvard discussing "Islam and the future of tolerance." Stream is here if anyone is interested.

https://forum.iop.harvard.edu/content/islam-future-tolerance

# ¿ Sep 14, 2015 23:30

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Miltank posted:

My right to dehumanization!

Many women choose to wear it. The hijab especially is a very common thing that women wear as they feel very strongly about modesty. If you want to call that dehumanizing, you will be arguing with women about it, and you will be denying women their right to act as they wish to it if you try to ban it. I tend to think this is the real "dehumanizing" issue involving it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/05/muslim-woman-hijab-delta_n_6616806.html

# ¿ Sep 14, 2015 23:50

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Effectronica posted:

What differentiates high heels from a niqab, in terms of dehumanization? Are we to take it that sexual objectification is better than non-sexual objectification? That seems rather, um, sexist.

women wear high heels by choice you see

# ¿ Sep 14, 2015 23:51

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Narciss how come you've spent like $100 to keep posting stupid poo poo in this forum? Asking for a friend.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2015 00:10

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

what's funny is over generations, muslim immigrants to the west tend to become more relaxed about that kind of thing without any intervention required. yet here we are talking about it.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2015 03:07

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

rudatron posted:

Missed this, hope they put a youtube out. Though I often find harris insufferable, it may still be worth watching.

I agree, and I still thought it was interesting. The debate never switches over to the existence of god except for one question in Q&A, and Harris actually impressed me with a message of surprising tolerance towards Islam once he wasn't being put in a position where he was supposed to discredit it.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2015 03:50

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 22, 2024 17:33

Volkerball: Oct 15, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Liberal_L33t posted:

The primary purpose of a garment like the niqab is to enable and justify rape, whether by impulsive male action or as part of arranged marriage.

Do elaborate.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2015 22:33

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Islam, ISIS, and You: Where are all these so-called "moderate" Muslims?