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The Lord of Hats posted:You don't get to handwave it away like that. China does not exist in some parallel universe where the laws of physics are wildly different. There are tons of Chinese citizens who have money in the stock market because it was hugely encouraged, and many of them bought on the margin. Either the market crashes, in which case a huge chunk of the population is completely hosed, or you prop up the market with government funds--which is quickly a huge drain on the government, or you just do what they're doing and turn the entire market so illiquid that the shares are worthless anyways because nobody wants to buy into that farce. I don't c are how authoritarian you are, you can't make that scale of event unhappen. You are arguing economics with a guy who is on record in this thread supporting the Holodomor.
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Jul 24, 2015 22:39
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 16:33 |
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Every time Horselord posts global communism is delayed by a generation.
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Jul 24, 2015 22:49
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Rent-A-Cop posted:You are arguing economics with a guy who is on record in this thread supporting the Holodomor. I see you're making poo poo up again.
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Jul 24, 2015 22:55
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HorseLord posted:I see you're making poo poo up again. You are no better than a neo-nazi comrade HorseFuhrer.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:01
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Genocide denial is support for genocide. Proponents of the Holodomor theory of the famine are actually the ones denying deaths, for example, all of the ones that happened outside of Ukraine. They need to do this because otherwise the narrative of a genocide against Ukrainians doesn't work. Perpetuating the Holodomor version of events is an insult to all of those victims.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:06
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HorseLord posted:Proponents of the Holodomor theory of the famine are actually the ones denying deaths, for example, all of the ones that happened outside of Ukraine. They need to do this because otherwise the narrative of a genocide against Ukrainians doesn't work. Guys some SS soldiers also died during the Holocaust. My great-uncle fell out of a guard tower for example.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:08
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Guys some SS soldiers also died during the Holocaust. My great-uncle fell out of a guard tower for example. You're really comparing all of the people in Belarus, Georgia, Russia, and Kazakhstan who starved to death as rural class struggle disrupted food production to Nazis who fell out of guard towers as they leaned over to get a better look at the jews they were gassing. Bravo! HorseLord fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 23:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Guys some SS soldiers also died during the Holocaust. My great-uncle fell out of a guard tower for example. People who are proponents of the Holodomor theory also don't deny deaths outside the Ukraine, they just do comparative analysis of deaths in the Ukraine and outside it. The statistics are simply undeniable: whether you view it as intentional or unintentional, the Ukraine and some other areas suffered hugely, compared to Russia, during the famine. The best-case scenario is that this was unintentional incompetence and a failure of the USSR to take care of its citizens, but there isn't really a sufficient mechanism to explain why it would have affected the Ukraine so heavily comparatively to Russia.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:14
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Obdicut posted:People who are proponents of the Holodomor theory also don't deny deaths outside the Ukraine, they just do comparative analysis of deaths in the Ukraine and outside it. Kazakhstan had it worse than Ukraine, the Kazakhs became less than half of the population of their own republic. If you were going to derive a motive for doing this intentionally from the statistics alone, then the holodomor theory would place Kazakhs as the target of genocide. But instead Ukraine gets that "honor" because it's politically useful. This poo poo was popularized in the west by "reporters" who'd never been there despite claiming they had.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:17
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HorseLord posted:rural class struggle disrupted food production communists starved people to death
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Jul 24, 2015 23:23
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HorseLord posted:Kazakhstan had it worse than Ukraine, the Kazakhs became less than half of the population of their own republic. Um, people do also think that the Kazakhs were a target. The main reason it doesn't get talked about much now is because the USSR suppressed any discussion of it, and Nazarbayev likewise suppresses it now. the Ukrainians--Euromaiden--do talk about it, though. The targets were the non-ethnic-Russian states, or to put it another way, when famine hit, the USSR directed food away from the non-russian-ethnic places and towards the ethnic russian places.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:27
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Obdicut posted:Um, people do also think that the Kazakhs were a target. The main reason it doesn't get talked about much now is because the USSR suppressed any discussion of it, and Nazarbayev likewise suppresses it now. the Ukrainians--Euromaiden--do talk about it, though. Funny how you only go "but we do talk about it" after I point out the suspicious absence of talking about it. Regardless an intentional famine of the USSR is horseshit because it contradicts all of the USSR's goals, and also the reasoning behind, and ultimate result of the collectivization. If collectivization was just a front to starve people because [unexplained reasons], then it wouldn't have actually worked as claimed afterward.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:38
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The Holodomor either occurred as an act of deliberate policy, in which case Stalinist socialism is a tyrannical regime of misery and oppression, or as a transgression of incompetence, in which case socialism's claims that government control is inherently more professional, efficient and far-sighted are comprehensively debunked. So HorseLord, are you an rear end in a top hat or an imbecile? Your pick. kapparomeo fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 23:39
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kapparomeo posted:The Holodomor either occurred as an act of deliberate policy, in which case socialism is a tyrannical regime of misery and oppression, or as a transgression of incompetence, in which case socialism's claims that government control is inherently more professional, efficient and far-sighted are comprehensively debunked. I choose option C. The 1930s soviet famine occurred due to significant active resistance against collectivization (rural class war), and was compounded by the fact the USSR had no food security whatsoever due to constant "minor" famines that you get by relying on medieval farming techniques. They'd had one in 1928 and the NEPmen went wild speculating on grain prices. The alternative to implementing the collectivization was to keep having famines all the time anyway. Whereas the next famine after the early 30s one is called World War II. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 23:47 on Jul 24, 2015 |
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Jul 24, 2015 23:43
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HorseLord posted:I choose option C. The 1930s soviet famine occurred due to significant active resistance against collectivization (rural class war), and was compounded by the fact the USSR had no food security whatsoever. Its the people we starved's fault that we starved them.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:44
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kapparomeo posted:So HorseLord, are you an rear end in a top hat or an imbecile? Your pick. I dont see how those two are mutually exclusive.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:45
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HorseLord posted:Funny how you only go "but we do talk about it" after I point out the suspicious absence of talking about it. That's not really funny, no. There isn't a suspicious absence of talking about it. quote:Regardless an intentional famine of the USSR is horseshit because it contradicts all of the USSR's goals, and also the reasoning behind, and ultimate result of the collectivization. If collectivization was just a front to starve people because [unexplained reasons], then it wouldn't have actually worked as claimed afterward. This doesn't really make any sense on any level. Behavior that contradicts the stated goals of a nation happens all the time, as when the US promotes repressive right wing governments while claiming to want to spread democracy. In addition, the USSR isn't a sentient entity; the intentions and desires of individual people matter. Stalin, in particular, was both Russian-supremacist in his policies in the USSR, favoring ethnic russians above other ethnicities, and moved to crush and weaken dissenting power structures. I don't know what you mean by 'it wouldn't have actually worked as claimed afterwards'. Nobody is claiming collectivization was a front to starve people to death, either. You are really horrible at making sense and arguing, to the extent that I think that you must be someone trying to make your point of view look terrible. HorseLord posted:I choose option C. The 1930s soviet famine occurred due to significant active resistance against collectivization (rural class war), and was compounded by the fact the USSR had no food security whatsoever. Even if this were entirely true, you still have to account for the effects of the famine being greater in the non-ethnic Russian areas like Ukraine and Kazakhstan.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:45
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quote:Regardless an intentional famine of the USSR is horseshit because it contradicts all of the USSR's goals, and also the reasoning behind, and ultimate result of the collectivization. If the USSR is bad then why did the USSR say it was good? Checkmate Libtards.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:48
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Obdicut posted:In addition, the USSR isn't a sentient entity; the intentions and desires of individual people matter. When I point this out people say I'm stanning for Stalin. Obdicut posted:Stalin, in particular, was both Russian-supremacist in his policies in the USSR, favoring ethnic russians above other ethnicities Stalin was an ethnic minority within Russia, a Georgian, and rose to prominence in the RSDLP(b) as an expert on "nationalities policy", what we would know today as multiculturalism. This directly led to things like Korenizatsiya and more generally the USSR's hardline internationalist stance. I think you might be confusing him with Uncle Rukus from the boondocks, which is an american cartoon show. Obdicut posted:I don't know what you mean by 'it wouldn't have actually worked as claimed afterwards'. It is very simple. If collectivization was a lie, and just something to cause a famine of people Stalin didn't like, then it wouldn't have actually achieved the goals they claimed they had for it. But it did. Obdicut posted:Nobody is claiming collectivization was a front to starve people to death, either. It is, again, simple. Collectivization was the agricultural policy of the USSR. The famine is a matter of agriculture that is blamed on the USSR. Obdicut posted:You are really horrible at making sense and arguing, to the extent that I think that you must be someone trying to make your point of view look terrible. I think you're just reading past me and operating on a very different set of fundamental assumptions. Your idea of Stalin's basic background is way off, for example.
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Jul 24, 2015 23:57
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HorseLord posted:
Nope. Stalin's policies favored ethnic russians. quote:It is very simple. If collectivization was a lie, and just something to cause a famine of people Stalin didn't like, then it wouldn't have actually achieved the goals they claimed they had for it. But it did. Nobody is claiming it was a lie that was just to cause a famine. quote:It is, again, simple. Collectivization was the agricultural policy of the USSR. The famine is a matter of agriculture that is blamed on the USSR. The roots of the famine are difficult to disentangle but it'd be very odd if farming techniques and policy weren't part of the problem. quote:I think you're just reading past me and operating on a very different set of fundamental assumptions. Your idea of Stalin's basic background is way off, for example. I didn't say anything about his background. Again: Even if it were entirely true that the famine was the result of 'class struggle', you still have to account for the effects of the famine being greater in the non-ethnic Russian areas like Ukraine and Kazakhstan. Can you do that?
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Jul 25, 2015 00:03
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Obdicut posted:Nope. Stalin's policies favored ethnic russians. Because you say so? In spite of all evidence? Obdicut posted:Even if it were entirely true that the famine was the result of 'class struggle', you still have to account for the effects of the famine being greater in the non-ethnic Russian areas like Ukraine and Kazakhstan. I would start by looking at the political inclinations of the most badly effected areas relative to the least effected areas as obviously there's going to be more trouble in areas that most resist the collectivization. (Crop burning, cattle killing, etc) .Then things like their preexisting level of food security, then what effected how good they were at food production like climate, tools in use etc. That's all the stuff to look at before we even begin to analyze the famine relief itself. At that point we'd need to study how they prioritized say urban vs rural famine relief efforts. That's incredibly important. I could see them prioritizing the urban and industrial areas because they don't produce food. Of course, the decisions they make will have all been incredibly distorted as communication broke down on the ground. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 00:18 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 00:15
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Rent-A-Cop posted:You are arguing economics with a guy who is on record in this thread supporting the Holodomor. True, but I really want to hear HorseLord's account of why the mystical Orient is entirely incomparable to the rest of the world.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:18
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The Lord of Hats posted:True, but I really want to hear HorseLord's account of why the mystical Orient is entirely incomparable to the rest of the world. Pointing out that China is a different country with a different economic base and political system to western countries isn't orientalist. You know what is orientalist? All the stupid racist stereotype poo poo people like to attack the DPRK with, including in this thread. Which I've already pointed out is dehumanizing propaganda. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 00:19
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HorseLord posted:Pointing out that China is a different country with a different economic base and political system to western countries isn't orientalist. I changed my mind, never stop posting.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:24
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HorseLord posted:Because you say so? In spite of all evidence? No, all of the evidence is that he did favor ethnic Russians. This became more pronounced later, culminating in the V-day toasts: quote:I would like to raise a toast to the health of our Soviet people and, before all, the Russian people. But it was present from the beginning, in his mass deportations of ethnic minorities. quote:I would start by looking at the political inclinations of the most badly effected areas relative to the least effected areas as obviously there's going to be more trouble in areas that most resist the collectivization. (Crop burning, cattle killing, etc) .Then things like their preexisting level of food security, then what effected how good they were at food production like climate, tools in use etc. That's all the stuff to look at before we even begin to analyze the famine relief itself. You don't seem to understand that this analysis has already been done. The 'trouble' was that food was removed from the Ukraine and the other areas and shipped out to the ethnic Russian areas. You don't seem to even understand that these were the food-producing areas. I am going to put you back on ignore now. I never should have responded to you. Nothing ever changes.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:28
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HorseLord posted:Pointing out that China is a different country with a different economic base and political system to western countries isn't orientalist. Norks.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:33
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Fojar38 posted:I changed my mind, never stop posting. See I get nothing from horselord. It's just the communist dial set on 11 and delivered unironically post after post.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:34
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asdf32 posted:See I get nothing from horselord. It's just the communist dial set on 11 and delivered unironically post after post. I sincerely never thought I would see the day when someone was earnestly defending North Korea. It's amazing and I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:39
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Fojar38 posted:I sincerely never thought I would see the day when someone was earnestly defending North Korea. It's amazing and I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. I'm actually quite moderate, like most people I see that the truth is often in the middle, and the extremes are more alike than they are different. 
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Jul 25, 2015 00:42
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HorseLord posted:I'm actually quite moderate, like most people I see that the truth is often in the middle. No ring, 4/10.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:43
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Fojar38 posted:I sincerely never thought I would see the day when someone was earnestly defending North Korea. It's amazing and I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. I have, but it's a rare and precious specimen. Authenticity (non-troll credentials) is always suspect. True Western groupies of the Kim Dynasty are like unicorns.
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Jul 25, 2015 00:44
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HorseLord posted:I'm actually quite moderate, like most people I see that the truth is often in the middle, and the extremes are more alike than they are different. Fetching come-hither look from Koba, yeah?
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Jul 25, 2015 00:45
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HorseLord posted:Pointing out that China is a different country with a different economic base and political system to western countries isn't orientalist. Alright, so what aspect of China's economy or political system is going to make it immune to a stock market crash? Because until you have actually provided a cogent argument as to why that's the case, you're just saying it's different in mysterious ways that make it immune to the economic forces of the world at large. China's stock market is enormously inflated (laffo if you think 117% growth in a year is remotely real), and the populace at large is hugely exposed to the stock market, because the message being yelled at them is "INVEST", and credit has been made consistently easier to get, to the point where you can now use your house as collateral for margin trading. When the bubble finally pops, a huge number of people are going to lose everything, a lot of institutional investors are going to eat giant losses because they have literally been ordered to buy more stock, lenders are going to get a bunch of real estate they can't possibly unload given the housing glut and the shrinking of the buyers market because everyone just lost a bunch of money. And you're probably going to see some political instability as well, because that's a natural part of a recession, and because the CCP has been using the message that everything in China is getting better for everyone under them, so don't stop the good times.
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Jul 25, 2015 02:31
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Wow this socialism/communism(same thing imo) seems pretty bad.
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Jul 25, 2015 02:51
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Fojar38 posted:I sincerely never thought I would see the day when someone was earnestly defending North Korea. It's amazing and I want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes. You didn't read the marxist thread then. This is what clinging to fringe 19th century ideology looks like up close.
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Jul 25, 2015 03:10
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asdf32 posted:You didn't read the marxist thread then. What, like classical liberalism?
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Jul 25, 2015 03:12
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Most liberals on SA seem to be social liberals rather than classical liberals.
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Jul 25, 2015 03:42
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Fojar38 posted:Most liberals on SA seem to be social liberals rather than classical liberals. This kind of liberal: Assata Shakur posted:I have never really understood exactly what a ‘liberal’ is, since I have heard ‘liberals’ express every conceivable opinion on every conceivable subject. As far as I can tell, you have the extreme right, who are fascist racist capitalist dogs like Ronald Reagan, who come right out and let you know where they’re coming from. And on the opposite end, you have the left, who are supposed to be committed to justice, equality, and human rights. And somewhere between those two points is the liberal. Sounds about right. Y'all agree with freedom for whatever, so long as they don't disturb you by fighting for it. Fojar38 posted:I, too, take my political philosophy lessons from convicted murderers. Just like that. HorseLord fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Jul 25, 2015 |
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Jul 25, 2015 04:02
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I, too, take my political philosophy lessons from convicted murderers.
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Jul 25, 2015 04:06
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HorseLord posted:"hey guys! China is capitalist now! They're full free market and everything! Clearly they're not real communists at all" On the other hand, their efforts at implementing the "to each according to his needs" part of communism leave something to be desired: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2266412/Chinese-man-kept-alive-13-years-HOMEMADE-dialysis-machine.html
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Jul 25, 2015 04:07
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