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http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/06/the-media-mens-emotions/?utm_source=SocialWarfare&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=SocialWarfare  I thought the notion that men only have the outlet for Anger and not much else was a particularly good observation and it would explain, in part, why men are more represented among people who commit violence. At the same time, while we are allowed to be sad, it comes with the label of being emotional. Being confident makes me a "bitch." Either way, it is toxic and we should as a society evolve on the matter and encourage the story telling arts to show the alternative.
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Jul 19, 2015 09:56
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I've read somewhere that in a past man crying were not only not considered weak, but crying was common even with strong men. Example would be Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar. It was just one accepted form of expressing emotion be at admiration of something beautiful or sad. I've always found it sort of funny how things have changed.
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Jul 19, 2015 10:19
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For I looked out and saw there were no more worlds to conquer, so I closed my door and cried like a bitch boy. - Alexander the Great
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Jul 19, 2015 10:27
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Is this not all rather obvious and mundane?
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Jul 19, 2015 10:30
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Achilles and Priam cried together, masculine group tears are cool
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Jul 19, 2015 10:49
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Webcomics aren't though why did you post a webcomic thread?
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Jul 19, 2015 10:54
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Yeah, this all basically Gender Studies 101 and the sort of thing that starts seeming simplistic and trite if you delve a little deeper. From my own experience, sex and gender science is a particularly politicized field where the textbooks are frequently written by movement feminists and queer advocates. This is better than the old approach of leaving it up conventionally-minded old men and clueless neo-Freudians, but the current crop of authors does tend to overemphasize the social conflict perspective (IE, mentioning "patriarchy" on every single page) and sometimes have some pretty funny ideas about what true gender equality might look like. Judging by the deliberately androgynous art style, I'd say our cartoonist is the sort of person who thinks that most differences between the genders are artificial (and typically oppressive) social constructs and we'd all be a lot happier if we tore the walls down. Interestingly, there's another (equally feminist) perspective that says that gender roles are informed by natural and immutable differences between the sexes and a truly egalitarian society would respect and celebrate those differences rather than trying to treat men and women as if they were the same. These two viewpoints have been clashing for years (sometimes in the same textbook), and the science is not nearly so settled as to establish which one is "right," even if such a thing were possible. These are issues that a lot of people are incredibly invested in and even experts in the field can get things stupidly wrong or simply don't have enough to work with. I try not to put much stock in what people on the internet have to say about it, even if it's as innocuous and banal and this comic, because a lot of the things people think they know about sex and gender are based more on what sounds good than what's true.
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Jul 19, 2015 11:26
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Whoa, that's so... so deep, man. Just think about how we have.... gendered insults, man. e: Seriously, why did you think a gender studies 101 webcomic, oh I'm sorry, a visual essay, was worth its own thread. It's tolerably insightful, but it's not exactly new. BravestOfTheLamps fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 12:18
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Duckbag posted:Interestingly, there's another (equally feminist) perspective that says that gender roles are informed by natural and immutable differences between the sexes and a truly egalitarian society would respect and celebrate those differences rather than trying to treat men and women as if they were the same. What garbage.
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Jul 19, 2015 13:40
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Smudgie Buggler posted:What garbage. Mostly but when trying to design an egalitarian society at some point you do have to acknowledge that, while gender roles are by and large just social constructs, people with an XY chromosome do not ever get pregnant (at least in my experience). Doesn't mean everyone with an XX chromosome will, just that absolutely nobody with an XY chromosome will. I mean if you don't cross that bridge you just look kind of ridiculous, though not as ridiculous as a webcomic about gender roles. E: I shouldn't have to say this, but this observation is not meant to be prescriptive or say that people with different biology should or would act in a specific way or adhere to a specific identity. Bifner McDoogle fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 16:24
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Duckbag posted:Judging by the deliberately androgynous art style, I'd say our cartoonist is the sort of person who thinks that most differences between the genders are artificial (and typically oppressive) social constructs and we'd all be a lot happier if we tore the walls down. Interestingly, there's another (equally feminist) perspective that says that gender roles are informed by natural and immutable differences between the sexes and a truly egalitarian society would respect and celebrate those differences rather than trying to treat men and women as if they were the same. so how do men and women biologically differ in the expression of emotion
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Jul 19, 2015 16:51
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Duckbag posted:Judging by the deliberately androgynous art style, I'd say our cartoonist is the sort of person who thinks that most differences between the genders are artificial (and typically oppressive) social constructs and we'd all be a lot happier if we tore the walls down. they are
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Jul 19, 2015 16:55
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Popular Thug Drink posted:so how do men and women biologically differ in the expression of emotion hormones? which differ from person to person I guess so not really but is there a hormonal baseline difference between men and women? i know nothing about it
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Jul 19, 2015 17:10
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OwlFancier posted:they are Trans people don't exist? I disagree. Dreylad posted:hormones? which differ from person to person I guess so not really but is there a hormonal baseline difference between men and women? i know nothing about it http://gpi.sagepub.com/content/11/2/143.abstract Whether or not these neural differences are a result of years of socialization or not might be able to be argued? I dunno, not a brain doctor either. I would be surprised as well if hormones played no role. tsa fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 18:02
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OwlFancier posted:they are Bruce Reimer's case presents another challenge to that view. His penis was obliterated by a surgical accident at the age of 6 months, and due to a prevailing belief in the socialization model, doctors decided that the easiest way forward was to remove the testes, reassign him as female and raise him accordingly. Dr John Money, the presiding psychologist, declared the experiment a success and used it to forward his theories of gender identity, however that never happened and Reimer later in life said that he had always internally identified as male. There are a lot of things in gender roles that are purely social or cultural, but gender identity itself seems to be something deeper and difficult to square with the idea of a purely social gender.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:03
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In general I doubt anything is purely nature or purely nurture; the default assumption should always be that underlying biology plays a role.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:15
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Guavanaut posted:My main issue with claims that gender is 100% a social construct is that it has bad implications for trans people. If it's all social, then were trans people badly socialized? Should medical professionals try to 'resocialize' them? That's still a social construct, but humans are social creatures so that we have very integrated social tendencies isn't too surprising. If you put a human in a complete vacuum I doubt they would have any concept of male or female, both are defined by socialization, in contrast to other humans around us. Without society there is no concept of gender because there is only you. That doesn't really mean you have to make everyone one or the other or neither though or that you have to decide for other people which, if either, they want to be. But it does mean that "this is a prevalent social archetype therefore it has inherent value and people should aspire to fit it" is a stupid idea. Gender roles are as mutable as any other social concept and carry no moral obligation to either fit or not fit them.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:26
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Guavanaut posted:My main issue with claims that gender is 100% a social construct is that it has bad implications for trans people. If it's all social, then were trans people badly socialized? Should medical professionals try to 'resocialize' them? just because we don't have a social construct of gender that fits all cases, or is often incorrect, doesn't mean that the idea that gender is socially constructed is incorrect. it just means humans are imperfect and often wrong or express flawed ideas. your argument is like saying that science doesn't know everything yet, therefore science can't know anything in a way, trans people are 'badly' socialized - they're forced to accept gender roles which are uncomfortable or inappropriate for them as individuals because society cannot or is not willing to permit them to express themselves as they are. there is a mismatch, and it's society's problem boner confessor fucked around with this message at 18:32 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 18:30
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Popular Thug Drink posted:just because we don't have a social construct of gender that fits all cases, or is often incorrect, doesn't mean that the idea that gender is socially constructed is incorrect. it just means humans are imperfect and often wrong or express flawed ideas. your argument is like saying that science doesn't know everything yet, therefore science can't know anything
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Jul 19, 2015 18:40
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I really don't think the comic delves deep enough into feminist concepts for the fundamental differences between men and women to be particularly relevant. It only has the modest goal of discussing how social pressures guide the way we judge emotions.
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Jul 19, 2015 18:43
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Bifner McDoogle posted:Mostly but when trying to design an egalitarian society at some point you do have to acknowledge that, while gender roles are by and large just social constructs, people with an XY chromosome do not ever get pregnant (at least in my experience). Doesn't mean everyone with an XX chromosome will, just that absolutely nobody with an XY chromosome will. I mean if you don't cross that bridge you just look kind of ridiculous, though not as ridiculous as a webcomic about gender roles. you're commenting on this post: Duckbag posted:[some feminists say] gender roles are informed by natural and immutable differences between the sexes [and that's ok]
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Jul 19, 2015 19:00
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Another great thread by Mandy Thompson
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Jul 19, 2015 20:12
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More related to the thread responses than the comic, but I never got the argument that something can be dismissed because it's a basic analysis of the subject being discussed, especially when the general population (at best) barely acknowledges it. It would be one thing if it was used in an academic discussion among people who study these things as a career, but in a public discussion, especially on the internet, it's glib to invalidate something like this as too simplistic. I'll give that this doesn't deserve it's own thread (assuming the feminism thread still exists), but my point still stands. MizPiz fucked around with this message at 20:36 on Jul 19, 2015 |
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Jul 19, 2015 20:33
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Jul 19, 2015 20:39
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MizPiz posted:More related to the thread responses than the comments, but I never got the argument that something can be dismissed because it's a basic analysis of the subject being discussed, especially when the general population (at best) barely acknowledges it. It would be one thing if it was used in an academic discussion among people who study these things as a career, but in a public discussion, especially on the internet, it's glib to invalidate something like this as too simplistic. People are being glib because someone posted a new thread for a single subpar comic about some surface-deep philosophical argument. That doesn't mean the argument is bad, it's just that there's really nothing to talk about.
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Jul 19, 2015 20:41
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Its too bad bitch is gendered because there's something great about an insult that means two completely contradictory things
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Jul 19, 2015 22:07
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I always imagine that first door says genocide.
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Jul 19, 2015 22:14
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Bip Roberts posted:I always imagine that first door says genocide. lol, from now on, so do i
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Jul 19, 2015 22:15
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Jul 19, 2015 23:24
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Who keeps moving this poo poo to D&D? Haven't we suffered enough, we already read D&D.
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Jul 19, 2015 23:48
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Gas.
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Jul 20, 2015 00:19
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Jul 20, 2015 00:30
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Duckbag posted:Interestingly, there's another (equally feminist) perspective that says that gender roles are informed by natural and immutable differences between the sexes and a truly egalitarian society would respect and celebrate those differences rather than trying to treat men and women as if they were the same. Well duh. Philosophy has known and understood this for a long time - I'd even go as far as to say since the dawn of philosophy itself.
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Jul 20, 2015 01:24
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Smudgie Buggler posted:Is this not all rather obvious and mundane? Yeah this is kinda what I came into this reading this- all of this talks about are things you can figure out by the 6th grade. Also does anyone else just roll their eyes when "Problematic" is used to describe something? What this doesn't say is things are getting better in the developed world at least. What would be unbelievable even only 20 years ago like stay at home dads are pretty common nowadays. People just see the negatives in their own lives.
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Jul 20, 2015 01:35
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Nelson Mandingo posted:Yeah this is kinda what I came into this reading this- all of this talks about are things you can figure out by the 6th grade. Also does anyone else just roll their eyes when "Problematic" is used to describe something? It's amazing much progress we have made with the pussification of America.
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Jul 20, 2015 01:51
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Yeah, "problematic" tends to be undergrad-speak for "it makes me uncomfortable, but I can't really articulate why." It's fine to say something is problematic if you actually say what the problem is, but too often people on the internet don't really know how to do that.Haruhater posted:Well duh. Philosophy has known and understood this for a long time - I'd even go as far as to say since the dawn of philosophy itself. Maybe it's obvious to us, but like every other nature/nurture debate, people will probably be debating it long after we're dead. People rarely admit it, but a lot of it's grounded in metaphysics and what they think a "soul" looks like. Some people (including many transfolk) believe that gender exists in the soul while others believe that souls are genderless. That's just religion at that point and it's sort of hard to argue with either way, but it often enters into how people present the scientific "facts."
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Jul 20, 2015 01:58
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Dreylad posted:hormones? which differ from person to person I guess so not really but is there a hormonal baseline difference between men and women? i know nothing about it Estrogen makes the intensity in which you feel emotions go up like woah compared to testosterone
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Jul 20, 2015 03:01
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none of these men are weeping
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Jul 20, 2015 03:34
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Also there's been a long and contentious debate over the role testosterone plays in male aggression and violence. Poor socialization and "boys don't cry" bullshit definitely has its role to play as well, but it's hardly the whole story. The ages at which men are most likely to commit violent crime have a startlingly close correlation with peak testosterone levels and I really don't think it's a coincidence. The phrase "testosterone poisoning" is still stupid and sexist, but the way we tend to ignore hormones and underlying genetic factors when comparing the sexes is somewhat bizarre.
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Jul 20, 2015 03:45
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Guavanaut posted:There are a lot of things in gender roles that are purely social or cultural, but gender identity itself seems to be something deeper and difficult to square with the idea of a purely social gender. For many people, yes, gender identity is an emergent property of their neuroanatomy. To others, not so much. This is irrelevant, because even if the source of gender identity were the same for everybody it would have no bearing on whether we should or should not tear down gender-based norms, which are what cause people to have hassles with their identity.
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Jul 20, 2015 03:47
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