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E-Tank posted:And a spaceship. God's on a tight budget.
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Aug 13, 2015 19:24
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we're all hosed, just like a cruel god would want, so it seems likely that we've got a v. cruel god to deal with, sort of a roko's basilisk of the past if you will
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Aug 14, 2015 03:10
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God is more real than any of us hth
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Aug 14, 2015 04:08
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Invalido posted:Rejected gods are just as imaginary as any idol believed in or worshiped. I don't believe that is true, I think that they are all reflections of the same ultimate truth, distilled and distorted by people's culture. The God of the old testament is one such reflection. For me, I seek a personal bond with the true God, a being of ultimate knowledge. You have to leave your empiricism at the door. Finding God is about letting your spirit guide you. I think Its about personal revelation, feeling the holy spirit within you.
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Aug 14, 2015 16:03
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That sounds kind of like "switch your brain off and then really believe whatever ideas drift into your head." Which seems... Ill advised?
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Aug 14, 2015 16:47
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Commie NedFlanders posted:God is more real than any of us hth :citation needed: Mandy Thompson posted:I don't believe that is true, I think that they are all reflections of the same ultimate truth, distilled and distorted by people's culture. The God of the old testament is one such reflection. For me, I seek a personal bond with the true God, a being of ultimate knowledge. You have to leave your empiricism at the door. Finding God is about letting your spirit guide you. I think Its about personal revelation, feeling the holy spirit within you. :medication needed:
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Aug 14, 2015 16:49
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Mandy Thompson posted:I don't believe that is true, I think that they are all reflections of the same ultimate truth, distilled and distorted by people's culture. The God of the old testament is one such reflection. For me, I seek a personal bond with the true God, a being of ultimate knowledge. You have to leave your empiricism at the door. Finding God is about letting your spirit guide you. I think Its about personal revelation, feeling the holy spirit within you. I think you misunderstood my point. What I meant was that atheists in my experience reject their own strawman of a god. (Strawgod?) Similarly, idolatry could perhaps be described as the ascribing of divine attributes to something other than God (the God of Abraham, that is). I think what you call "distilling and distorting" leads to this, whether it's by a little or a lot. Either way, you have a situation where an individual chooses to either believe in or reject something that ultimately is more or less a figment of his/her own imagination rather than an objective truth. As for this truth being "ultimate", I think that type of understanding is reserved for prophets and the like, at least as far as any human understanding of God goes. The rest of us have to be ever watchful so we don't get into the whole distorting and distilling, our understanding being flawed/limited/affected by desire/etc. I agree with you that empiricism is not the most productive way to know God on a personal spiritual level but it is the best way to understand the quantifiable parts of creation, which reasonably ought to reflect at least some aspects of the Creator.
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Aug 14, 2015 17:56
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Samuel Clemens posted:Have you considered the possibility that God exists and doesn't exist at the same time? Schrödinger's God?
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Aug 15, 2015 06:33
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Commie NedFlanders posted:God is more real than any of us hth Bro I just ate a whole bag of carrots. I left one out for God to prove he's both real and tough enough to eat a whole bag and he didn't do jack poo poo. Maybe he doesn't like carrots?
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Aug 31, 2015 06:51
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A part of me wishes that there is a God but the rational part of me won't allow it.
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Aug 31, 2015 07:12
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dlr posted:
Sounds good to me. No one knows , the only thing known is my perception for your own assured belief. Besides that it's all a wash.
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Aug 31, 2015 07:40
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Invalido posted:I think you misunderstood my point. This is a brilliant post. I will follow with my own argument for the existence of God. Me being a life long atheist. Let us use an example. As humans we are something bigger taken together than we are as individuals. We exist on a bigger level than ourselves. This has many different meanings. One of the most common meanings is that of the nation. We are all part of a nation. The nation exists as a series in institutions that we carry through. It can only exist if we exist within it. Bigger than the nation are the civilizations, which are bigger and older than the nations, whom in turn are bigger and more fluent than the states. And on top of this you might have the collective consciousness of humanity. Let us call that God. Did this god create the universein seven days? Of course not. A child would understand that. However this global consciousness has created and continually create how we as humans perceive the universe. In this interpretation god does indeed create our perception o of the universe. How come? Because of the nature of God. God is all knowing, meaning that god is the sum of our collective knowledge. One of the principal ways that God work is through education and science. Does this entity have a will of its own? No idea. Do you?
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Aug 31, 2015 17:50
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Quift posted:This is a brilliant post. I will follow with my own argument for the existence of God. Me being a life long atheist. This amateur theologist makes priests furious!
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Aug 31, 2015 22:36
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dlr posted:Agnostic goons: gently caress. So who are the other agnostic goons and when should we gently caress?
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Aug 31, 2015 22:38
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I'm pretty agnostic about loving goons.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:39
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Real question should be "If there is/are deities, does their existence affect you in any way?" If your answer is "Yes" then good for you! You're probably a poster child for the placebo affect. If your answer is "No" then good for you! There is no need for you to bother with the question anymore or anyone else's answers.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:42
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Amergin posted:Real question should be "If there is/are deities, does their existence affect you in any way?" That's somewhat dependent on the specifics of the deity, given that "yes" is a very reasonable answer to most of the gods which people espouse the existence of, because they're all nosy buggers who like taking particular interest in human lives and also like doing weird stuff to humans if they don't meet their personal ideas of how humans should act.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:46
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OwlFancier posted:That's somewhat dependent on the specifics of the deity, given that "yes" is a very reasonable answer to most of the gods which people espouse the existence of, because they're all nosy buggers who like taking particular interest in human lives and also like doing weird stuff to humans if they don't meet their personal ideas of how humans should act. Maybe you could rephrase the question as "If that/those deities didn't exist, would their absence affect you or your life in any way?"
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Aug 31, 2015 22:47
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Amergin posted:Maybe you could rephrase the question as "If that/those deities didn't exist, would their absence affect you or your life in any way?" Again, arguably yes, given that if you showed me concrete proof that bible god existed, I might readjust my conception of what constitutes ethical behaviour, given that I would then be under an obligation to ensure people don't spend forever in hell. Whereas currently it is most important to ensure people are happy while they're alive. I mean personally if bible god existed I'd probably just tell him to gently caress off but even with that in mind, it's a different matter if you're considering other people who may not be OK with everything that entails.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:51
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God went out for a coffee break once the universe cooled off enough to make some stars. We're probably not even supposed to be part of this model, and the whole thing will have to be restarted when it comes back and checks on us.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:51
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Because our knowledge of reality will always be limited by the boundaries of our sense experience, and from measurements and instruments deriving from those senses, the question of "god" as an omnipotent entity becomes fundamentally unknowable and thus irrelevant and absurd. To define God then, to me, is to think about God as a metaphor for the information that we can assume is in the universe but is unknowable to us because it cannot be registered by human senses. It is reasonable to assume then that this God exists as an unknown variable of cosmic significance, but that it is otherwise impossible to define. As to whether or not that cosmic variable feels ashamed when it watches us masturbate, I have no idea.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:54
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Chewybiteems posted:Because our knowledge of reality will always be limited by the boundaries of our sense experience, and from measurements and instruments deriving from those senses, the question of "god" as an omnipotent entity becomes fundamentally unknowable and thus irrelevant and absurd. To define God then, to me, is to think about God as a metaphor for the information that we can assume is in the universe but is unknowable to us because it cannot be registered by human senses. It is reasonable to assume then that this God exists as an unknown variable of cosmic significance, but that it is otherwise impossible to define. As to whether or not that cosmic variable feels ashamed when it watches us masturbate, I have no idea. I really like this post.
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Sep 1, 2015 03:10
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God of the gaps as a literal definition of god is certainly novel, I suppose.
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Sep 1, 2015 03:43
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Amergin posted:Real question should be "If there is/are deities, does their existence affect you in any way?" I guess there's no need to bother with the Islamic State's answers to that question, then. Amergin on ISIS: "I needn't bother."
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Sep 1, 2015 03:43
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OwlFancier posted:Again, arguably yes, given that if you showed me concrete proof that bible god existed, I might readjust my conception of what constitutes ethical behaviour, given that I would then be under an obligation to ensure people don't spend forever in hell. Whereas currently it is most important to ensure people are happy while they're alive. While God certainly exist in the Bible hell does not. Hell as well as heaven are just other people. people who will talk about you differently depending on your actions in life. If you are kind towards others people may use your life as an example of kindness even after your death. This would be heaven. And you might live on as one of who had spread and done God's work. An angel. If I'm kind I will die, but my essence will live on through other people who will talk nicely about me. I will become an angel. Jesus is somewhat of a radical claiming that you should find paradise on earth. That is why he doesn't die.
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Sep 1, 2015 07:47
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Quift posted:
Um I'm pretty sure he died at least once.
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Sep 1, 2015 12:33
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Thump! posted:Um I'm pretty sure he died at least once. No, of course not. That would mean that he rose up again after having physically died. That's impossible. But if we see it like a Buddhist awakening it is not his body that dies when he accepts God. It is his individuality that he surrenders to achieve enlightenment. Meaning a union with God. One can only achieve this by accepting ones sins and forgiving one self. As well as the sins of your fellow men.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:20
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SedanChair posted:I guess there's no need to bother with the Islamic State's answers to that question, then. At least he's consistent.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:35
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Quift posted:
No, let us call it the collective consciousness of humanity. Now we can talk about it clearly without conflating it with a mish mash of other ill-defined definitions and sinking into a quagmire of false equivocation. quote:Did this god create the universe in seven days? Of course not. A child would understand that. Wrong, that's a commonly held belief among religious adults.
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Sep 1, 2015 14:40
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I believe in the gods and their power and that they died for us and we carry on their legacy. I also know the gods never really existed, but I don't think that's particularly relevant to whether or not one chooses to believe in them. People believe lots of things they know aren't true, I think it's pretty immature to confuse belief and truth. Beliefs are contexts you operate in because they grant purpose, allow you to weight the morality of behaviour, and provide bonding opportunities. Truths are facts about how the world works you can use to pursue those purposes and guide you towards success and understanding. Beliefs are fictions, but we all have them, and we all feel they are important. Human rights, the rule of law, justice, revenge, family, the good of the species, right and wrong, good and bad - all of these are beliefs that are factually baseless, and all of them in fact often contradict the facts. We believe them and things like them anyway, because we are humans, and the things humans do is wrap their actions and the world around them in stories that let them shape patterns and extract meaning. Science itself, or at least the thing that drives it (that knowledge is valuable and meaningful and matters) is a trivially false proposition, even if it's aim is to reveal truths. Yet you don't see many people complaining about a belief in science. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 15:23 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 15:19
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Can god write an holy book so preposterous that not even he could believe it?
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Sep 1, 2015 15:20
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Quift posted:No, of course not. That would mean that he rose up again after having physically died. That's impossible. But if we see it like a Buddhist awakening it is not his body that dies when he accepts God. It is his individuality that he surrenders to achieve enlightenment. Meaning a union with God. If you're going to complain that the bible isn't realistic then I don't think there's a great deal of reason to pay attention to it at all.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:28
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Literally none of the things you list are counter-factual, they are simply preferences. I preference the set of 'good' over 'bad', yet neither has any basis in actually existing reality. That doesn't mean it's counterfactual, it just means I'm a subject with a subjective set of desires, which I seek to satisfy. A statement of value by it's nature cannot contain any information/facts, true or false. So a belief in a value is different to a belief in a fact - to express belief in a value is to simply express a value, but to express a (true or false) fact is to express a theory that can be tested. Religions, and all ideologies (of which religions are a subset) contain both types of beliefs. If there is value in religion, it is purely in the value-beliefs, not the fact-beliefs. The ideology with the best of both worlds is, of course, Marxism-Leninism, which rejects the existence of god. Thread over.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:36
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There is no God because he would have already killed us off and tried again with a newer, better species. Because we are straight up garbage.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:38
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GlyphGryph posted:Science itself, or at least the thing that drives it (that knowledge is valuable and meaningful and matters) is a trivially false proposition, even if it's aim is to reveal truths. Yet you don't see many people complaining about a belief in science. ....what?
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Sep 1, 2015 15:43
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CommieGIR posted:....what? The belief that science is worth doing has no basis in fact, or at least not in facts that aren't derived from beliefs which themselves have no basis in fact. rudatron posted:I preference the set of 'good' over 'bad', yet neither has any basis in actually existing reality. Wait, so do you see the existence of good and evil as a value-belief or a fact-belief? But yeah, I agree, fact-beliefs are dumb, stick to knowing for facts and beliefs for values is what I think, even if those beliefs are beliefs about the state of the world. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 15:52 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 15:47
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accidental double post
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Sep 1, 2015 15:51
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GlyphGryph posted:The belief that science is worth doing has no basis in fact, or at least not in facts that aren't derived from beliefs which themselves have no basis in fact. Well, yes, but neither does anything we do, including the option of lying still and waiting to die. I'm not sure humans not being connected to a source of absolute truth is a terribly significant argument given that it would get in the way of everything ever if you considered it a stumbling block.
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Sep 1, 2015 15:53
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MeLKoR posted:Can god write an holy book so preposterous that not even he could believe it? L Ron Hubbard didn't really believe what he wrote, did he? L Ron is god, wrap it up Christianailures
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Sep 1, 2015 15:57
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Good/Evil are 100% value-beliefs - specifically, they are related to different set of human desires. Social desires (avoiding shame/guilt, empathy/sympathy) are generally seen as good, and anti-social desires (pure self-interest, greed, vanity) are generally seen as evil, yet people will at various times indulge in both.
rudatron fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Sep 1, 2015 |
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Sep 1, 2015 16:01
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