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Murder On The Orient Express turns out they're all the traitor.
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Aug 1, 2015 20:58
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So, unless it's a plot point later in the books, can someone clarify whether "Maura oba-chan" is "Aunty Maura" or "Maura the woman my mother's age of whom I'm fond" from Chamo's perspective?
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Aug 1, 2015 21:05
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For a claustrophobic episode, they handled it pretty well. Having a fluid opening scene showing off how the barrier holds them rather than relying on exposition, all while reinforcing that the characters aren't idiots. And then get to the talking... Flamio's backstory is being uncovered nicely (I have an exposed nerve for authors who drop and dangle the intrigue-carrot beyond its welcome). It makes sense that she kept as quiet as she did and for her to be more up front now. I'm just shocked at how they seemed to take that bombshell in relative stride. So you're really not going to get pushy with some followup questions to THAT origin story? Also, they just established that a single person's assertions are irrelevant without being seconded, so Hans's expert door appraisal still needs one (probably from Ms. Mountains).
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Aug 1, 2015 21:41
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I hope that someone points out that cat-boy's rationale for why it can't be Flamie applies to Adlet just as readily, as that stuck out to me.
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Aug 1, 2015 22:34
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Nashetania still bein' weird and manipulative. That hand-holding scene.
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Aug 1, 2015 22:43
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i hope someone would point out that adlet would need to be real dumb, for that to be his story as the traitor. Blhue posted:I hope that someone points out that cat-boy's rationale for why it can't be Flamie applies to Adlet just as readily, as that stuck out to me. it's not exactly the same, since if there are seven suspicion would naturally fall on flamie as the brave killer, but not really adlet as some dude.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:02
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Cake Attack posted:i hope someone would point out that adlet would need to be real dumb, for that to be his story as the traitor. The problem here, of course, is that Adlet is real dumb.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:09
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Cake Attack posted:i hope someone would point out that adlet would need to be real dumb, for that to be his story as the traitor. even so, his explanation means the traitor would have a strong motive to kill their partner if they ever traveled with one other brave (to make sure there were 6 once they all gathered to ensure no one even thought one was a traitor). I think the child was the only one with a story that didn't include traveling with someone?
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Aug 1, 2015 23:13
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Blhue posted:even so, his explanation means the traitor would have a strong motive to kill their partner if they ever traveled with one other brave (to make sure there were 6 once they all gathered to ensure no one even thought one was a traitor). I think the child was the only one with a story that didn't include traveling with someone? But even that theory wouldn't work out of the fake didn't know they were a fake, or if they were only fake so they could be a hero too.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:23
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I'm starting to think that door was fake, because it seems odd that a bomb would unlock it without actually destroying it. It would make sense that it was already unlocked and the bomb just pushed it open. Also, the bunny princess feeling faint in the anti-demon room is pretty suspect. I'm gonna guess it ends up with one of them being impersonated by a demon, but with Adlet still being the seventh brave chosen by the Demon God.
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Aug 1, 2015 23:33
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Blhue posted:even so, his explanation means the traitor would have a strong motive to kill their partner if they ever traveled with one other brave (to make sure there were 6 once they all gathered to ensure no one even thought one was a traitor). I think the child was the only one with a story that didn't include traveling with someone? I was a little confused with this explanation because even if Flamie killed Adlet, 6 braves would show up and Adlet would be gone. But Nachetania knew Adlet was a brave so wouldn't it still get out that there's a 7th? Did no one know Flamie was a brave until Adlet found out and we're assuming if she killed Adlet she wouldn't reveal herself as a brave? Did I miss a detail somewhere like "If a brave dies another one is awoken and takes his/her place"? Admoon fucked around with this message at 00:11 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 00:07
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I'm really feeling Maura. She spent most of the effort trying to take control of the proceedings but she gave a VERY brief description of her activities before they all met up (Pretty much just: "I met chamo... then I met humpty") and when she wasn't forced to speak she kept her back, and hence her tattoo, up against that corner of the room, effectively hiding it even better. She also endeavored to look like she was participating by making all those "Everyone's strange" comments without contributing all that much, aside from her "The barrier could only be activated by a human" comment.The temple is made of stone, and she's the "Saint of Mountains", something that apparently has little to do with raw physical strength (else, Chamo wouldn't be the strongest person in the world). Maybe she can control stone somehow that she could walk into the temple through a wall, without interfering with the door. Granted that Humpty's explanations that the door couldn't be shut while it was opened, and that Flamie could activate the barrier, could just as easily be fabrications.
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Aug 2, 2015 00:45
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There's also the possibility that the person who set up the barrier is different from who is actually the fake. Due to narrative drama, flamy is probably a legit brave, and humpty can also probably be discounted just because he's too obviously suspicious. Everyone else is a possible fake though.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:37
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Admoon posted:I was a little confused with this explanation because even if Flamie killed Adlet, 6 braves would show up and Adlet would be gone. But Nachetania knew Adlet was a brave so wouldn't it still get out that there's a 7th? Did no one know Flamie was a brave until Adlet found out and we're assuming if she killed Adlet she wouldn't reveal herself as a brave? In his dismissal of her, I figure he assumed Flamie wouldn't have known that Adlet and Nachetania had already met. In that situation, she would have wanted to make sure to eliminate someone she knew was a brave when she could, to avoid the remaining 5 from ever knowing that there were 7 people claiming to be Braves. And yeah, none of them knew who any given Brave was until they all met up. My current guess is Chamot, given what I said before about her being the only one who traveled alone, the fact that she immediately wanted to kill the most obvious traitor candidate without examining any other possibilities, and her apparent disregard for life.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:45
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I'm still thinking it's Nashetania. She's the most developed character with the most screen time who isn't Adlet (meaning that her betrayal will actually mean something to the audience rather than 'oh, huh, minor character #4 is evil'), she's the Saint of Blades (meaning she'd be a nightmare of a boss battle), and she's been acting weird and manipulative from day one. Her efforts to get Adlet on-side have just not felt genuine.
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Aug 2, 2015 01:47
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They've also gone out of their way to portray Nash as someone who wouldn't be able to hold her own in a fight (she keeps getting almost-killed by not paying enough attention to her own defense; she "fainted" just now, etc), so I guess the audience would be thinking of her as relatively nonthreatening. Despite her reputation.
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Aug 2, 2015 02:08
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Time to answer some questions and explain the differences, woo! Also, we're past the first page now, so it's probably fine to not use spoiler tags when just discussing the latest episode or your theories or whatever. I thought it would be a 100% direct transition since it was just a bunch of people talking, but there were a decent number of differences. Some of the dialogue is altered while preserving the intent, for instance. Hans talks about wanting to hear the bunny girl's story alone in the LN, in the anime it's translated as being interested in her story. In the LN they cover basically everything we've seen so far and a bit more when discussing themselves, I'm sure they cut that for time and because it's stuff we've already seen or heard for the most part, but they could have made it clearer for the viewer. Here's the description of Adlet's introduction to the group: Adlet was the first to get the ball rolling. He touched upon his history, his encounters with Nashetania and Fremy, and what happened when he finally reached the temple. Of course he repeated the fact that he was the world’s strongest man over and over again. So when Hans points out that Flamie would've killed Adlet on the way, he's drawing on those more detailed accounts from Adlet and the others. Another difference is that when Hans says he's an assassin, Nash doesn't know what that is and has to be told. I think the author was playing up how little she knew about the world, like how she talked about thinking fruits grew on plates earlier. Nash's little fainting spell is described as being because she can't handle the emotional intensity of all the questioning and the thought that someone is a traitor. There's a decent chunk too, after everyone's introductions, where they go over how they might disable the barrier. Maura puts forth some theories, including that if they kill the person who set it up the barrier should dissipate, and Fremy says Maura might be an imposter and be lying about that. There are other differences as well, but nothing toooo major. On to the questions and comments Kytrarewn posted:So, unless it's a plot point later in the books, can someone clarify whether "Maura oba-chan" is "Aunty Maura" or "Maura the woman my mother's age of whom I'm fond" from Chamo's perspective? It's not a plot point, and it's the latter, older woman I respect/love. Maura is basically the person in charge of all the Saints and all the various temples, though she doesn't have supreme authority or anything. She also sometimes trains them. Think of her as a fighting pope, basically. She takes charge pretty quickly and without much argument because most people there have heard of her (the two saints have for sure), she's the oldest Saint by a significant margin, and she's used to running things. Or could it be she does that because she's the traitor  .Ferretts posted:Flamio's backstory is being uncovered nicely (I have an exposed nerve for authors who drop and dangle the intrigue-carrot beyond its welcome). It makes sense that she kept as quiet as she did and for her to be more up front now. I'm just shocked at how they seemed to take that bombshell in relative stride. So you're really not going to get pushy with some followup questions to THAT origin story? In the LN everyone gasps when she reveals she's half Kyouma except for Chamot and Goldof. As far as no follow ups, Flamie tends to shut down pretty quickly, I think they only get as much info from her as they do because she's the #1 suspect and literally chained up at the moment. Stay tuned for door seal verification... Admoon posted:I was a little confused with this explanation because even if Flamie killed Adlet, 6 braves would show up and Adlet would be gone. But Nachetania knew Adlet was a brave so wouldn't it still get out that there's a 7th? Did no one know Flamie was a brave until Adlet found out and we're assuming if she killed Adlet she wouldn't reveal herself as a brave? Once a Brave dies they're gone for good and the rest of the braves have to do their best with fewer numbers. A Brave died en-route to the big meet-up last time, they just managed with 5. As far as why the traitor didn't kill a Brave on the way to the meet-up, there's at least one good reason behind why you wouldn't want to do that as a traitor even if you met your first brave sitting alone on an abandoned highway with no witnesses. Minor spoiler: The sigils on the brave's hands react to the death of a brave by removing a petal, or pointy protrusion. Right now there are 6 points, if a real brave dies it goes down to 5, etc. So if the traitor kills a brave on the way then shows up with a fake brave sigil, they can still try to confuse people, try to frame someone, etc., but they can't just seamlessly slip in as part of the group of 6 braves and betray everyone later. Of course, since it would be a pretty similar effect to where things stand now, it might be worth it. I think it's highly probable this will come up in the next few episodes, in the worst case it should come up in the last 3 or so episodes, but it's common knowledge to all the characters, unless they just leave it out of the anime and I don't see why they would. It's also possible the traitor's plan works better with more people present, or they didn't want to risk trying to kill a brave and failing which would be a big risk to their plan, or they're under Demon God secret mind control and don't even know they're the traitor like my first theory from before I read the LN. Once the season's done I think I can make a convincing argument for why the traitor didn't take out any braves en route, if I do it now it obviously ruins everything for everyone. Good theories so far, keep 'em coming! And if you have any questions I'll try to throw a reasonable answer your way. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 02:21
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I really love how we have a legitimate closed room murder mystery. Ranpo Kitan has been very disappointing in this regard.
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Aug 2, 2015 02:41
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I don't think the door argument flies, even if you take Hans's claim as fact. Maura already demonstrated why, too: there are keys. Anyone with a key could have gotten into the temple, waited for Adlet to force his way in, and then snuck out while he fought the guards. That places a fair bit of suspicion on Maura herself. The way the door opened when Adlet blew up the lock suggests to me that someone was already waiting inside and took that as a sign to act. Also, in classic locked room mystery fashion, there's no way to know if there are secret entrances. I wouldn't think it very reasonable to build that into your secure demon trap, but who knows?
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Aug 2, 2015 03:28
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A pretty intense episode for being mostly people standing around talking. They did a good job breaking it up with interesting perspectives and, as was mentioned, starting things of with the dynamic looking-for-a-way-out scene. I mean, it still doesn't have anything on Zetsuen no Tempest for engaging episode-long talky scenes, but making such an episode interesting is an accomplishment.
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Aug 2, 2015 03:32
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Man, Adlet is going to feel really stupid if the barrier was set to automatically engage when someone broke open the door and defeated the guards. That even sounds like the sort of rear end in a top hat move that would be in-character for the Saint of Seals, from what Hans says in this ep.
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Aug 2, 2015 04:48
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Myriad Truths posted:I don't think the door argument flies, even if you take Hans's claim as fact. Maura already demonstrated why, too: there are keys. Anyone with a key could have gotten into the temple, waited for Adlet to force his way in, and then snuck out while he fought the guards. That places a fair bit of suspicion on Maura herself. The way the door opened when Adlet blew up the lock suggests to me that someone was already waiting inside and took that as a sign to act. The key thing with the door is that once you open it once, it's open for good. You can't close it again, ever, it's now just a clear hallway to the temple. Unlike most locked room mysteries where it is just a locked door that people have gone in and out of a hundred times, this is being set up as having only two states, closed forever and open forever. If what Hans is saying is correct, traditional Kyouma could not enter due to the salt pillars, and even Saints with all their wacky powers could not enter until the door was open. Yes_Cantaloupe posted:A pretty intense episode for being mostly people standing around talking. They did a good job breaking it up with interesting perspectives and, as was mentioned, starting things of with the dynamic looking-for-a-way-out scene. Business is going to pick up a bit in the next episode and continue picking up from there, though you'll get a very decent amount of people standing around talking as well. This also reminds me that in the LN, they also try throwing string forward and following it and it doesn't work. I don't think Adlet quite tried the "take out string and spaz out running it around every tree" approach. Once that fog's up nobody is getting in or out until it's disabled, it really is a very nifty defense mechanism for while the Saints are fighting when used optimally. I'll give the nerdy Avengers comparison now: Adlet = Iron Man Maura = Captain America Goldof = Thor Flamie = Hawkeye Nashetania = Hawkeye again? She's way easier to place in the Justice League since then she's just a sword obsessed Green Lantern. Hans = Black Widow Chamot = Hulk I don't think I'm giving anything away here, and I associated them based on aspects of their skillset or their personality. Chamot isn't going to turn into a big green Swamp Thing, but she'll do some Hulk-ish things later. Adlet's whole gimmick is a million different hidden gadgets on his body, which is pretty Iron Man like, in D.C. he's obviously Batman.
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Aug 2, 2015 09:11
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Holy poo poo, blazed through the first volume and now I'm kicking myself for not having ordered volume 2 sooner, since it's not available at any nearby branch of Kyobo. Such a gripping series. Really hope this gets more seasons later on cause I love it.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:11
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The novels have been selling like poo poo, with no discernible improvement as an effect of the anime, so I'd be surprised to see more seasons. Unless the BD sales somehow explode.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:28
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That saddens me.
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Aug 2, 2015 15:34
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darkgray posted:The novels have been selling like poo poo, with no discernible improvement as an effect of the anime, so I'd be surprised to see more seasons. Unless the BD sales somehow explode. Nooo why must you be a darkgray cloud on my soul! I guess it makes sense that they went with just a 1 cour despite having way more volumes to draw on then. I can't believe this isn't selling while VRMMO light novel #15 is doing well. Do you have any sales figures lying around? I couldn't find them with a quick googling around. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Aug 2, 2015 |
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Aug 2, 2015 17:19
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According to this, the only series this season with less Bluray preorders so far is Jitsu wa Watashi wa No idea about the novel sales
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Aug 2, 2015 18:59
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NowonSA posted:Do you have any sales figures lying around? I couldn't find them with a quick googling around. http://yaraon-blog.com/archives/67057 (nsfw ads)
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Aug 2, 2015 19:03
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gently caress. Instead of sleeping and waiting for the volumes I ordered to arrive, I stayed up and read the English fan translations for Volume 2 and now it's 4 am. I forgot how fun it was to read new books, I gotta do that more often. Tamba posted:According to this, the only series this season with less Bluray preorders so far is Jitsu wa Watashi wa This is doubly sad, cause I like Rokka and I really wish Jitsu wa had been adapted more properly in the beginning so both series could get the recognition they deserve.
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Aug 2, 2015 20:10
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With her break down at getting locked in the barrier, feeling faint for no reason and trying to get Adlet on her side/manipulate him Nashetania seems like the obvious choice at this point but they are being really overt at making her suspicious so I wonder if that's all misdirection. Like how ordinarily Hans would be the clear choice at being traitor but because he is the most obvious choice that means it isn't him.
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Aug 2, 2015 21:16
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Guess I'll take your word for it then DG, that's all gibberish to me. There should be some really stellar episodes coming up, so maybe preorders for the second or third blu-rays will go up? I dunno, I'm just grasping at straws.
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Aug 3, 2015 01:17
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It'd be interesting if the traitor ended up not mattering, being solely placed to sew distrust. What I mean is suppose all seven of them are genuinely good people (for some value of "Good"), but because they can't trust one another - because they assume someone must be the traitor - they end up destroying themselves instead of working together. All the Demon God would have to do is pick some random, reasonably strong individual and let them fight it out. I mean, what's the worst that could happen? He fails, he waits another hundred years. Dude's probably used to it.
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Aug 5, 2015 08:47
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I dunno, Cucumber Quest has shown that the villain can get real tired of the cycle.
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Aug 5, 2015 08:53
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Bad Seafood posted:It'd be interesting if the traitor ended up not mattering, being solely placed to sew distrust. 1. Traitor doesn't know that s/he's the traitor, want to kill the demon king. 2. Traitor gets pissed off at Demon King somewheer along the line, decides to kill him and just hold his tongue in the meanwhile. 3. There's no "traitor" per se, but one of our people is of the "Saint of a Single Flower" strength class (Chamo, probably?). Goddess of Fate decided to spread the last lady's mojo throughout six of our heroes, and the seventh just resists the poison/fights demons/etc through pure piss and vinegar. 4. Due to (ep5 spoiler) Flamie's unique parentage, she's immune to the poison anyway and so fate goddess decided to just give her any old tattoo and forgot that everyone was only expecting there to be six heroes.
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Aug 5, 2015 11:00
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It's interesting because the more you think that Flamie can't be the seventh because it's never the obvious person, the more stuff lines up that makes her seem like the best candidate. -She's killed a lot of Saints, weakening the potential flower candidates. -She's been in demon territory before, so she doesn't need the effect of a true seal to survive there, which is a nice bonus when planting an agent. -She keeps holding information back and trying not to communicate with people. -She's got a long history of interacting with Demons that none of the others have. It's like you have an army special ops unit in WW2 with 6 allied soldiers and one suddenly reformed German soldier who's all like "No seriously guys, Hitler's the worst, lets go get him! I'll take first watch at night!" So far everyone else has barely anything pointing in their direction, aside from the evidence against Adlet which has got to be a classic frame-up. I don't know, at a certain point you can pile up the evidence to the point that if that character isn't the traitor, it kind of doesn't make sense, and Flamie comes pretty close to that point. I don't think she crosses it, but she can see it from where she's standing. The optimal path as a traitor isn't necessarily to kill true Braves or to get them to kill each other either, if you can keep them in the fog barrier long enough then you win. It's actually quite a good thing they're trying to sort this out as the traitor, in some ways at least, the optimal Brave play is actually to ignore the traitor issue, keep everyone together, and have everyone focus on trying to figure out how to end the barrier. Of course, that's easy to say and hard to do when you never know when someone might stab you in the back.
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Aug 5, 2015 16:36
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NowonSA posted:the optimal Brave play is actually to ignore the traitor issue, keep everyone together, and have everyone focus on trying to figure out how to end the barrier. Of course, that's easy to say and hard to do when you never know when someone might stab you in the back. They already know how to end the barrier: kill the one who set it up (or have that person voluntarily end it). Since killing each other randomly until it dispels isn't an ideal plan, trying to figure out who the traitor is seems like a smart choice. Finding the traitor and escaping the barrier are directly related.
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Aug 7, 2015 13:34
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Clarste posted:They already know how to end the barrier: kill the one who set it up (or have that person voluntarily end it). Since killing each other randomly until it dispels isn't an ideal plan, trying to figure out who the traitor is seems like a smart choice. Finding the traitor and escaping the barrier are directly related. That's one way to do it, but with all their abilities I think they could find another way if they all focused on the barrier while just kind of eyeballing each other as they did so. VVV Fair enough, you do make a good point about traitor-finding being a better path toward escaping the barrier than I had thought. NowonSA fucked around with this message at 22:49 on Aug 7, 2015 |
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Aug 7, 2015 15:01
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I think that's an odd assumption to make that's very likely to be an even bigger waste of time. How many weeks of failure before you decide it's impossible because magic?
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Aug 7, 2015 22:03
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Came for the cute anime dude, almost stopped after episode 4, now at least staying for this mystery segment. I was wondering why the poster had 7 characters on it if there were only 6 flowers. My money's on Nash or Adlet.
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Aug 8, 2015 06:43
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| # ? May 3, 2024 02:21 |
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While we're waiting for this evening's episode, here's some mildly interesting speculation from ANN's episode reviewer for this show:quote:To help us decipher this, let's run down everything that happened between the group splitting up to all seven Braves gathering in the temple:
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Aug 8, 2015 16:54
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