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I like when Granny Weatherwax performs an abortion.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:31
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lfield posted:I like when Granny Weatherwax performs an abortion. Don't remember that, but I do remember she sorts out Deaths dodgy shoulder after beating him at a card game. 
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Aug 31, 2015 21:34
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I think Dan Brown is a bit dated to be the go-to author for criticising popular dreck, The Da Vinci code came out in 2003. It's like when you still hear people making jokes about Nickelback.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:35
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OwlFancier posted:Pratchett is adept at shattering the gestalt illusion of positivity which permeates social consciousness, but does so in a way which reinforces the need to foster that positivity with action. He is a reconstructionist author, deconstructing a lie while helping the reader to reconstruct it from base, worthy, principles. going to memorise this and repeat it at parties, thanks. Also I devoured Pratchett as a kid, so there's that, and on another point, last year or so when I was feeling ill for a while I needed a book that was easy to read while not completely insulting your intelligence and Small Gods and the rest of the Discworld took that role exactly.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:36
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hookerbot 5000 posted:I guess it depends on why you read. Or how you define 'better'. A Hundred Years of Solitude might be better than Small Gods or Guards Guards but it doesn't mean I enjoy it more or necessarily want to spend my spare time being horribly depressed. This is what I was trying to get at, thanks. Pork Pie Hat posted:I'm honestly really glad that people like Pratchett, reading is always better than not reading, and reading (what are, to me, based on my limited survey) mediocre books is always better than reading Dan Brown. The other half of what I was getting at, and why I mentioned Brown at all.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:36
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Hoops posted:This is a good thing not a bad thing. He's acknowledging the problem and taking steps to correct it. It's a good thing by certain metrics. Like its better than opposing the Tories on three issues or two issues. It's not as good as opposing them on say, seven issues. Personally I think promising to oppose them on four issues is a very very low bar to set and no-where near enough to be credible.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:38
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I read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell that got a lot of hot take backlash against it (it's the one with the "10,000 hours to master a skill" idea if you're not familiar with it). But I don't care, it was really really interesting and I enjoyed it a whole bunch.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:40
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Hoops posted:I read Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell that got a lot of hot take backlash against it (it's the one with the "10,000 hours to master a skill" idea if you're not familiar with it). But I don't care, it was really really interesting and I enjoyed it a whole bunch. I thought the criticism of that was its actual claims of truth rather than any sort of literacy criticism.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:42
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OwlFancier posted:Are Pratchett's books long enough to be called novels? One of the things I liked about them was that they aren't very long. A 'novel' is literally just a fictional narrative written in prose though. namesake posted:That was the wizards, the witches had the power, used it when they had to but basically (like the wizards) knew that such power corrupts and so relied on actual medicine or psychological manipulation as a preference. Edit: poo poo, sat on this post for too long. Just going to quote this- OwlFancier posted:I would say that Pratchett has written possibly the most effective and exceptional example of a virtuous allegory that I've read. Not because it's exceptionally virtuous, but because it's everyday virtuous. When you read it, it's difficult not to feel like there's a point being made which you already know, but didn't really get beforehand. The 'abortion' referred to above happens in Carpe Jugulum, a pregnant farmer's wife is kicked by a cow and Granny Weatherwax plays Death at Poker - for the life of the mother, not the child. That's not a choice she would put on the farmer himself. Death loses when Granny produces four Queens. All he has is four ones. It's a great scene. Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Aug 31, 2015 |
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Aug 31, 2015 21:43
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OwlFancier posted:I can't help but feel someone who reads Discworld and criticised it for not having anything to say, is arguing instead that what it says is not superficially transgressive enough. You know, if there's one thing than irks me about Pratchett it's that he has this tendency to render entire swathes of human behaviour into these cute little aphorisms. When I was a kid it seemed insightful, and a good source of humour. Now that I'm older, though, it reads... well, horribly reductionist and more than a little misanthropic. It turns people into archetypes and prevents you from gaining any real understanding of them as individuals.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:46
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Kegluneq posted:The witches and wizards were also at the opposite ends of the class spectrum. The wizards had a literal ivory tower and had political connections to the rulers of city states. The witches were common as muck (especially Nanny Ogg...) and represented the rural poor. Actual class awareness did come across most strongly in the Guards books though. Vimes is a class traitor, no two ways about it. ACAB applies to the Discworld too.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:47
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Autonomous Monster posted:You know, if there's one thing than irks me about Pratchett it's that he has this tendency to render entire swathes of human behaviour into these cute little aphorisms. When I was a kid it seemed insightful, and a good source of humour. Now that I'm older, though, it reads... well, horribly reductionist and more than a little misanthropic. It turns people into archetypes and prevents you from gaining any real understanding of them as individuals. "People need to believe the little lies to believe the big ones." Reduction is useful as a vehicle for understanding, and the depth of his characters (and that they don't really fit into any archetype, or fit into so many as to be almost human) contrasts that I think quite well. The aphorisms may be grating sometimes, but the actual characters make it difficult to describe the books as entirely reductionist.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:49
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The covers of his books are very detailed and can keep me entertained for hours.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:49
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namesake posted:Vimes is a class traitor, no two ways about it. quote:"People need to believe the little lies to believe the big ones."
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Aug 31, 2015 21:51
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hookerbot 5000 posted:A Hundred Years of Solitude might be better than Small Gods or Guards Guards but it doesn't mean I enjoy it more or necessarily want to spend my spare time being horribly depressed. The Nickelodeon TV adaptation was the superior work though. Also I suspect that the Jonathan Jones subscribes to the idea that things that are amusing can't be serious art. It definitely comes across in his writing.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:51
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Darth Walrus posted:This is a weird rule of thumb with Pratchett - his kids' books are typically more serious (and often grimmer) than his adult books. Roald Dahl, if nothing else, should have taught us that kids goddamn love grim and gruesome.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:51
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Guavanaut posted:Also I suspect that the Jonathan Jones subscribes to the idea that things that are amusing can't be serious art. It definitely comes across in his writing. I don't know about that, I read his work and simply roar with laughter.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:54
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namesake posted:I don't know about that, I read his work and simply roar with laughter.
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Aug 31, 2015 21:55
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namesake posted:Why did you keep going? Sounds like a sunk cost fallacy... Because I felt that I shouldn't criticize them until I'd actually read them. That said, I got 2/3 of the way through Twilight before quitting, not because the story is bad, the characters and boring or the plot is absurd- just it's so badly written. And Atlas Shrugged I quit just after they discover the free-energy machine, again, as it was just so badly written, but also the characters you're meant to admire are just hateful. (I also got a refund from Amazon Kindle for The Wasp Factory, as I couldn't read the depictions of animal torture). I Love Pratchett, but I can see the problem getting into it from nothing - the Better novels are further along the story-arcs, so, for example to get to The Fifth Elephant and get the in-jokes and plot points, you have to have read Guards! Guards! (which isn't that good), Men-At-Arms(which is better) and so on - even the Wyches starts with the really not-very-good Equal Rites.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:13
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Always thought they were overated myself but its just loving harmless fun, not quite sure why this dude has his knickers in a twist, i know what im reading if offered the choice of jane austin or pratchett.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:14
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namesake posted:Vimes is a class traitor, no two ways about it. 'Billy Skunkins is a brass stud!' Renfield posted:I Love Pratchett, but I can see the problem getting into it from nothing - the Better novels are further along the story-arcs, so, for example to get to The Fifth Elephant and get the in-jokes and plot points, you have to have read Guards! Guards! (which isn't that good), Men-At-Arms(which is better) and so on - even the Wyches starts with the really not-very-good Equal Rites. Also, if we're onto the sunk cost fallacy, that's probably why I'm up to book 9 of Wheel of Time. Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Aug 31, 2015 |
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Aug 31, 2015 22:15
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Kegluneq posted:Hence the Sam Vimes 'Boots' Theory of Socioeconomic Unfairness. This is worth quoting, for those that haven't read it, mostly cos it's true: Captain Vimes posted:The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Kegluneq posted:Also, if we're onto the sunk cost fallacy, that's probably why I'm up to book 9 of Wheel of Time. Renfield fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Aug 31, 2015 |
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Aug 31, 2015 22:18
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just voted Kendall/Flint Pratchett is good
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Aug 31, 2015 22:23
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Hoops posted:I think Dan Brown is a bit dated to be the go-to author for criticising popular dreck, The Da Vinci code came out in 2003. It's like when you still hear people making jokes about Nickelback. In fairness, Nickelback are still absolutely dreadful though. But yes, isn't 50 Shades your more contemporary version of awful fiction that everyone seems to read?
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Aug 31, 2015 22:23
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Renfield posted:This is worth quoting, for those that haven't read it, mostly cos it's true: quote:Stick with it - those couple of books are the worse, as he was ill and not getting the editing he needed - the last 3 written by Brandon Sanderson make wading though them worth it !
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Aug 31, 2015 22:32
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Kegluneq posted:I'm not sure how much it hurts the argument there that not only does Vimes end up swapping his expensive boots for cheap ones (iirc), his knowledge of cobblestones felt through cheap soles is essential to the plot. It is still broadly true though. I feel like that was part of it, to show he was an unusual case. By keeping his cheap shoes Vimes was still the same pleb he was or whatever and not one of those people who gets changed by wealth. As in, most people with money would choose to be comfortable, but Vimes chose to be uncomfortable and a better policeman. The logical thing to do would to have gotten expensive long-lasting shoes with thinner soles, but I don't know if the Ankh-Morpork shoemaking industry is capable of that, and he'd be too proud of resisting the status of wealth to do that anyway. Fictional Shoe Practicalities Chat is the best chat. Angepain fucked around with this message at 22:46 on Aug 31, 2015 |
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Aug 31, 2015 22:42
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Seaside Loafer posted:jane austin It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a Superstar in possession of a title belt, must be in want of a beer.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:52
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Discworld is life changing because I now save up and buy expensive shoes which last longer than cheap ones.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:54
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Pork Pie Hat posted:I'll accept that they may be on the weaker end of a 40-part series, but based on those I don't particularly feel the need to read the remaining 38 to find a few that may be better. If there was a general consensus to a best one or two then I will happily see the error of my ways and give those a try. Small Gods is generally considered his best book, though I think people tend to exaggerate when they say it is Literature. That said, I don't think Literature/Not-Literature is a useful distinction. Pratchett was not a wordsmith so don't expect great flights of language. He was, however, a clever and knowledgeable man and his biggest strength was probably the way he could incorporate that into his writing - from blunt parody to rather esoteric references.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:57
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Kegluneq posted:I have heard that so will stick with it. The last few books have badly needed editing, to the extent they should really only have been one book. I've actually just started re-reading them, as I needed something for a 7 hour round trip on the train to Wales - the first one is still Very good, and I remember skipping the endless descriptions of what the women are wearing over, and over again. The last couple Jordan wrote get better, but suffer from following too many plot-lines at once, so as I was getting the books as they came out, not much happens in each story - so 18 months later, Rand's story has advanced by a week. And wait for the next book. Sandersons conclusion, while still having the same feel to the writing, just flowed better- there just easier to read than the others, and even though Jordan died, the story is ended well, as it should be.
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Aug 31, 2015 22:59
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OwlFancier posted:Are Pratchett's books long enough to be called novels? One of the things I liked about them was that they aren't very long. Small Gods clocks in at 90,000 words. The minimum wordcount for NaNoWriMo is 50,000.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:00
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One of the good things I liked about Lord Of The Rings was that the bits with Sam and Frodo having their date are helpfully sectioned off in their own books and chapters so you can ignore them and read about the fighting instead.Darth Walrus posted:Small Gods clocks in at 90,000 words. The minimum wordcount for NaNoWriMo is 50,000. Maybe it's because he wrote other things than just novels.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:00
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Angepain posted:I feel like that was part of it, to show he was an unusual case. By keeping his cheap shoes Vimes was still the same pleb he was or whatever and not one of those people who gets changed by wealth. As in, most people with money would choose to be comfortable, but Vimes chose to be uncomfortable and a better policeman. However due to his change of standing he's not some copper with crap shoes helping him do his job, he's a pillar of society keeping in touch with the commoner with an eccentric choice of footwear. He looks at the world through his feet, the world can offer him no such return.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:01
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namesake posted:However due to his change of standing he's not some copper with crap shoes helping him do his job, he's a pillar of society keeping in touch with the commoner with an eccentric choice of footwear. Though that raises the interesting question: He doesn't change much as a person, so what's the difference? That he is a pillar of society is a decision society has made, not him, and suggests he was just as worthy of the status before he got rich, or just as unworthy of it now that he is.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:03
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OwlFancier posted:One of the good things I liked about Lord Of The Rings was that the bits with Sam and Frodo having their date are helpfully sectioned off in their own books and chapters so you can ignore them and read about the fighting instead. namesake posted:However due to his change of standing he's not some copper with crap shoes helping him do his job, he's a pillar of society keeping in touch with the commoner with an eccentric choice of footwear.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:10
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UnCO3 posted:just voted Kendall/Flint Good work.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:13
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I'm pretty sure in Jingo, he describes one of the Lords as so out of touch he denies reality
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Aug 31, 2015 23:14
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Kegluneq posted:No one in the upper classes is mad, just eccentric! But Vimes is a 'jumped-up copper to the nobs, and a nob to the rest'. Yes his discomfort is that of the nouveau riche. He feels apart from both classes and he's right to do so but he still (grudging) acts according to his new upper class role. Basically Sam Jr is probably going to be a bit of prick.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:16
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namesake posted:Yes his discomfort is that of the nouveau riche. He feels apart from both classes and he's right to do so but he still (grudging) acts according to his new upper class role. I think he mostly does that because Sybil tells him to, he usually finds an excuse to go do police stuff.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:18
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He's going to go to a good school and do well.
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Aug 31, 2015 23:19
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