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bebaloorpabopalo posted:One button DPs are a huge issue and go a long way in making the game feel slower and less active. How does less safe, invincible moves make the game slower and less active? I'm seriously curious.
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Sep 16, 2015 22:27
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Grimwall posted:I am sure once you sweated trough the needlessly complex basics there is a fun tactical game somewhere there though... Sorry to break this to you but
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Sep 16, 2015 22:37
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edit: aaa nm
Zand fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Sep 16, 2015 |
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Sep 16, 2015 22:43
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DatonKallandor posted:How does less safe, invincible moves make the game slower and less active? I'm seriously curious. I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding here because this game has one button invincible moves that can be made safe with Kinetic Advance, which is what tends to bog down the gameplay into slow over-careful defense since both players have to play around one button invincible moves that can be made safe.
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Sep 16, 2015 22:47
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Shadow Ninja 64 posted:I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding here because this game has one button invincible moves that can be made safe with Kinetic Advance, which is what tends to bog down the gameplay into slow over-careful defense since both players have to play around one button invincible moves that can be made safe. I think the issue there is more on goddamn fuckin' FADC than in the one-button invincible move. Hate FADCs. Hate them.
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Sep 16, 2015 22:51
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i stopped playing around about when the grappler robot could anti-air you with his super because it had invulnerable frames on start and enough active frames to catch you when you landed the KADC system is really annoying. the game in general is just annoying.
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Sep 16, 2015 22:52
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It's trivial to react to a bunch of stuff with invincible moves that you can just make safe 5 times a round even if you do screw up. Usually doing these things requires a lot of concentration, anticipation and there is a sense of hesitation because of the risk involved both in potentially whiffing the move or just running into something because you're not paying enough attention to it, maybe you're buffering a motion so you're not blocking. Instead in this game you can just sit there and play molasses footsies with your stubs and if you see them do anything you press your 1 button DP and dash cancel it to safety or big combo. This leads to people doing nothing or just losing trying to actually do stuff and it's really boring.
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Sep 16, 2015 22:59
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That's KA's fault though. One button specials by themselves wouldn't be so annoying without it.
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Sep 17, 2015 00:24
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tzz posted:That's KA's fault though. One button specials by themselves wouldn't be so annoying without it. one button specials are stupid for a lot of reasons, none of which I'm going to talk about. but they really are stupid, trust me
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Sep 17, 2015 00:40
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tzz posted:That's KA's fault though. One button specials by themselves wouldn't be so annoying without it. One button DPs means you can always react to something like Dauntless' overhead or Crow's run, stuff that would normally be useful as a high/low guessing game becomes 100% useless against anyone with a brain. And if you really wanna poo poo on their picnic you can super them on reaction with a single button too!
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Sep 17, 2015 01:52
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Trykt posted:One button DPs means you can always react to something like Dauntless' overhead or Crow's run, stuff that would normally be useful as a high/low guessing game becomes 100% useless against anyone with a brain. And if you really wanna poo poo on their picnic you can super them on reaction with a single button too! this^ and also even when buffering stuff in other games to achieve a similar effect, you cannot ever do it as safely and without forfeiting at list a little bit of defense as you can in RT with 1 button invuln moves
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Sep 17, 2015 02:36
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tzz posted:That's KA's fault though. One button specials by themselves wouldn't be so annoying without it. Not totally If someone is coming at you and you want to DP them that means you are letting go of your block. 1 button DP means you can attack and block at the same time with an invincible move
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Sep 17, 2015 02:45
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OK, so, I'm not actually trolling, these are just my actual opinions, let's get that out of the way. You guys have brought up some good points that have brought me a bit more into favor with the whole combo thing Even though it's a bit tough to parse I totally see what the fighting game vets are saying about it being too easy or broken in certain ways, however even with those points (the one button DPs and supers, etc) I feel like the "fighting games might just not be for you" thing is BS and I'm glad someone is at least TRYING to make a game that defies conventions and tries to make things more accessible. FPS games didn't stop trying new things after DOOM and there's no reason for the depth of the fighting game genre to stop at Street Fighter and Weird Fast Anime Street Fighter.
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Sep 17, 2015 03:26
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Lavender Philtrum posted:OK, so, I'm not actually trolling, these are just my actual opinions, let's get that out of the way. You are right that this genre tends to stagnate for years at a time, and innovation is something that's badly needed. The guys behind RT are smart, too; I feel like they'll probably pull a playable game out of their collective butts at some point. But the people in this thread who criticize the game aren't thinking about what it might be or what it will be, they're thinking about what it is. Rising Thunder is not fit for competitive play in its current state.
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Sep 17, 2015 03:32
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Lavender Philtrum posted:OK, so, I'm not actually trolling, these are just my actual opinions, let's get that out of the way. I'm sorry it came off that way. I'm happy that someone is trying to make a fighting game that appeals to people who think traditional fighters are to hard. I think that such game a game can exist and does in other games. DOTA pretty much created the ARTS (MOBA) genre and remains the gold standard but there are games that dumb it down (and i don't mean that as an insult) like League of Legends and even more so with Heroes of the Storm. I was just pointing out the flaws in the way they implemented the game. There is plenty of time to fix it of course. Maybe if you are holding back you lose invincibility on your DP and making blocked DP dash canceled more punishable to discourage just spamming them. Also more characters and backgrounds will help too.
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Sep 17, 2015 04:15
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lamentable dustman posted:Not totally Yeah, I don't mean they are ok otherwise, it's just that KA makes them way worse.
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Sep 17, 2015 10:45
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It's fairly simple though; Make DP's not KADC'ble, make Specials not override down/back. These are given out glibly (and would probably conversely make defence borderline impossible against Vlad) but it's the 'sort' of movements that could be considered. As it stands, every match vs a Chel or Dauntless is basically 'bait the DP, be aware they could cancel after it and bait/punish accordingly.'
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Sep 17, 2015 10:51
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Shockeh posted:It's fairly simple though; Make DP's not KADC'ble, make Specials not override down/back. These are given out glibly (and would probably conversely make defence borderline impossible against Vlad) but it's the 'sort' of movements that could be considered. with so many flawed concepts that this game is based on, they should probably just stop imo and maybe redesign it from the ground up. trying to shoehorn these weird mechanics (cooldowns, 1 button specials, 8 button fg, custom moves, hidden info about opponent) into a traditional fighting game model makes no sense. some of these have been addressed but patchwork fixes that address single issues haven't yet and wont end up making an elegant system at all. if this game didnt have the cannon name on it people would have already moved on by now.
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Sep 17, 2015 19:42
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lamentable dustman posted:Not totally Persona and Ultimax have essentially one-button DPs, and I don't think anybody really complained about the slow pace of those games.
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Sep 17, 2015 20:31
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Coca Koala posted:Persona and Ultimax have essentially one-button DPs, and I don't think anybody really complained about the slow pace of those games. it looks like persona did a better job with their implementation than RT then. persona also has much more offense-geared character and system design tho.. measuring a mechanic's ability to change the pace of the game is only really useful in the context of that game, given that any mechanic's value is only relative to the other mechanics of that particular game, including general system stuff and characters as well
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Sep 17, 2015 20:47
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One-button DPs in persona are balanced by the massive increase in movement options that game has over something like RT. It's much easier to bait a DP using movement, in this game even backdashes get hit by DPs a lot of the time. You also get a fatal counter if you punish a DP, making them a lot more risky to throw out. I'm sad to say it but I've basically dropped this game completely nowadays. My wish list of things this game needs ASAP: -No more DP FADC, period. It ruins risk/reward scenarios and makes everything a lot more defensive. -Improved walk speed, normals, and throw range - neutral game is pretty garbage right now, and several characters have basically 0 good pokes. -Nerf jabs, I feel like I'm playing SF4 with all these boring hit-confirm links.
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Sep 17, 2015 21:22
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Persona is a much faster game with air movement and I'm pretty sure all the DPs are now air blockable. Not all the DPs are DPs either, some are counters, some only have armor, lots of them are slow enough to safejump, safe meaty, or cancel whatever you're doing to react to them. You also very seldom are able to convert much damage off them so it wasn't that big a deal to get hit by one, versus RT where Chel and Dauntless get some of their best damage off doing random DPs and always convert into knockdowns. That said lots of people complained about the DPs in that game and that they were cancellable to super. It worked out as people learned how to better bait and punish them. The potential for that exploration isn't there in Rising Thunder. Nobody has problems baiting and punishing DPs, it's that the risk reward is way too good and the situation comes up far too often.
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Sep 17, 2015 21:23
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Shadow Ninja 64 posted:I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding here because this game has one button invincible moves that can be made safe with Kinetic Advance, which is what tends to bog down the gameplay into slow over-careful defense since both players have to play around one button invincible moves that can be made safe. Frankly I think you are simply massively wrong. Those one button moves have cooldowns. Long cooldowns. You can do far more invincible moves in Street Fighter, MvC or any other non-cooldown fighter. You can be safer more often in those games, yet they're not "too safe" or "slow". RT is simply newer. The windows of vulnerability in RT is longer than in other games. It's not the games fault those windows aren't exploited yet. People just haven't adapted yet. It takes a long time - new poo poo is still being discovered in Street Fighter 4 and that's been out for ages. The idea that RT is already "solved" is absurd. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 11:32 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 11:24
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Besides SF4 what fighting game exists where the majority of characters have an invincible reversal that can be made safe using meter. It's almost like putting in the same mechanics that people complained made SF4 slow and boring in an even slower game and then letting you do those things 3x as much and with greater reward only exacerbates the problem. Also the cooldowns don't matter at all because KA removes the majority of the cooldown and if you don't KA the punish combo is going to last long enough for you to have your DP again. bebaloorpabopalo fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 12:06
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The major unaddressed point (that ties into some of the new players' criticisms) is that this game claims to be "easy to learn," but it still has the really grindy and opaque low-end stuff like proximity normals, per-move cancellability mechanics, and hidden information. You still have to memorize a bunch of stupid poo poo, it's just that it's not specifically the stupid poo poo that people normally bitch about having to memorize.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:23
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DatonKallandor posted:Frankly I think you are simply massively wrong. Those one button moves have cooldowns. Long cooldowns. You can do far more invincible moves in Street Fighter, MvC or any other non-cooldown fighter. You can be safer more often in those games, yet they're not "too safe" or "slow". RT is simply newer. The windows of vulnerability in RT is longer than in other games. It's not the games fault those windows aren't exploited yet. People just haven't adapted yet. It takes a long time - new poo poo is still being discovered in Street Fighter 4 and that's been out for ages. The idea that RT is already "solved" is absurd. "Doing more invincible moves" and "being safer more often" are not in any way equivalent. Moves with invincibility like DPs have drawbacks. Generally they're majorly unsafe on block and on whiff. In the case of blocks, some games let you expend meter to make things safer. In SF4, the most FADCs you're gonna build up in a normal round is usually 3 if you're trying hard, whereas I have seen on stream and been told that it is not uncommon to build up 6 or more Kinetic Advances in a round. That's quite a few more times you can press that one button DP and not have to worry about much of anything as long as you don't straight up whiff it. Edit: I don't have anything to say about the "solved" statement because I don't think it means anything to the issue at hand. Also, if you enjoy RT, then by all means keep enjoying it and playing it. That's really quite fine. I'm just pointing out an issue I see with it that would lead me to not want to play it even if my computer could handle the game. Shadow Ninja 64 fucked around with this message at 12:26 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 12:24
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I don't really mind FADC too much in SF4 because it shares the same resource for ex-moves, which are at least very useful for every character. In this, the only thing you use your kinetic bar for is doing a KADC, and it charges up pretty quick. Make it use the same meter as super, make it way less spammable, just make it less annoying.
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Sep 18, 2015 12:30
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Shadow Ninja 64 posted:"Doing more invincible moves" and "being safer more often" are not in any way equivalent. Moves with invincibility like DPs have drawbacks. Generally they're majorly unsafe on block and on whiff. In the case of blocks, some games let you expend meter to make things safer. In SF4, the most FADCs you're gonna build up in a normal round is usually 3 if you're trying hard, whereas I have seen on stream and been told that it is not uncommon to build up 6 or more Kinetic Advances in a round. That's quite a few more times you can press that one button DP and not have to worry about much of anything as long as you don't straight up whiff it. Well then the entire issue is KA, not one-button anything. DPs are as unsafe on block as they always are, and have longer cooldowns than in other games. KA lets you subvert both. The issue is KA then, is it not? Making it run off Super meter, and having fewer charges as suggested above would probably help. If not removing it outright and replacing it with stuff that's more fun and interesting that a get-out-of-jail-free move. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 17:12 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 14:31
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Jmcrofts posted:One-button DPs in persona are balanced by the massive increase in movement options that game has over something like RT. It's much easier to bait a DP using movement, in this game even backdashes get hit by DPs a lot of the time. You also get a fatal counter if you punish a DP, making them a lot more risky to throw out. Oh yeah, for sure. I'm not trying to say that Persona and RT play at the same speed, and I apologize if that's what anybody thought I meant. I'm just trying to provide an example of motionless DPs that don't bog down the game as a way to show that the issue isn't "being able to defend and attack at the same time" but more that there are just fewer movement options etc. DatonKallandor posted:Well then the entire issue is KA, not one-button anything. DPs are as unsafe on block as they always are, and have longer cooldowns than in other games. KA lets you subvert both. The issue is KA then, is it not? Basically this is the point I was trying to make, but this guy did a way better job of explaining it in the context of RT. edit: Zand posted:it looks like persona did a better job with their implementation than RT then. persona also has much more offense-geared character and system design tho.. measuring a mechanic's ability to change the pace of the game is only really useful in the context of that game, given that any mechanic's value is only relative to the other mechanics of that particular game, including general system stuff and characters as well This is also a good point, but one of the defining traits of RT is that all the specials are on one move. In that context, I do think it's useful to point out that having invincible moves or reversals on one button doesn't FUNDAMENTALLY mean that the game is going to be slow, which is the impression that I've gotten from some people's posts. If we assume that the designers don't want to remove one button specials, it's worth looking at other games that have done the same thing but avoided the related issues. Coca Koala fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Sep 18, 2015 |
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Sep 18, 2015 18:53
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DatonKallandor posted:Frankly I think you are simply massively wrong. Those one button moves have cooldowns. Long cooldowns. You can do far more invincible moves in Street Fighter, MvC or any other non-cooldown fighter. You can be safer more often in those games, yet they're not "too safe" or "slow". RT is simply newer. The windows of vulnerability in RT is longer than in other games. It's not the games fault those windows aren't exploited yet. People just haven't adapted yet. It takes a long time - new poo poo is still being discovered in Street Fighter 4 and that's been out for ages. The idea that RT is already "solved" is absurd.
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Sep 18, 2015 19:03
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here you go zand, just imagine all of them as the guy who's not pr rog https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAf0Dzwq54o
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Sep 18, 2015 19:38
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I've barely touched fighting games since for like 2-3 years ever since my Xbox broke, and I completely figured out Chel in like 3 days. This game is very shallow, and the mechanics need a serious overhaul, but saying it can't work is a bit excessive. Honestly, when I hear alpha I expect the game to crash on the regular basis, so it exceeded my expectations even though I didn't play it much (because I got bored quickly). I think they should just pull the plug for now, develop it some more from the feedback they got, and let everyone play the game after some overhauls have been made.
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Sep 18, 2015 19:44
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DatonKallandor posted:Well then the entire issue is KA, not one-button anything. DPs are as unsafe on block as they always are, and have longer cooldowns than in other games. KA lets you subvert both. The issue is KA then, is it not? Yeah, I think having moves with invincibility but also drawbacks can definitely be fine. My claim in my two previous posts was always that the combination of that with too many Kinetic Advances was detrimental to the game.
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Sep 18, 2015 21:17
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New patch notes http://risingthunder.com/2015/09/23/upcoming-patch-notes-for-9232015/ Also synirc #risingthunder
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Sep 23, 2015 15:01
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Draynar posted:New patch notes http://risingthunder.com/2015/09/23/upcoming-patch-notes-for-9232015/ drat this thread is dead. Another update. Can spectate lobbies now. http://risingthunder.com/2015/10/06/patch-notes-build-1423/
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Oct 6, 2015 22:55
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Draynar posted:drat this thread is dead. Another update. Can spectate lobbies now. Game needs a lot more than just lobbies to survive.
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Oct 14, 2015 15:38
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Rise of Incarnates just got killed. I didn't even know it existed. Anybody know how this game is doing?
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Oct 16, 2015 04:47
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Wrong thread, buddy boy. I played the game for 20 minutes, I assume people with less patience than me did so for less? (For a good time, play as Asha.) Dodgeball fucked around with this message at 18:29 on Oct 16, 2015 |
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Oct 16, 2015 18:26
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New patch coming some solid stuff. Gotta say after playing pc beta of sf5 this weekend rising thunders net code is definitely better. Wish they were bigger company to get more features and characters out though. http://risingthunder.com/2015/10/21/patch-notes-preview-for-10272015/
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Oct 26, 2015 19:41
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Draynar posted:New patch coming some solid stuff. Gotta say after playing pc beta of sf5 this weekend rising thunders net code is definitely better. Wish they were bigger company to get more features and characters out though. Ctrl f zib 0 results worst patch
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Oct 26, 2015 19:59
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