Windows 10: I know what I'm doing

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > Windows 10: I know what I'm doing

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

It's not too odd really - network adapter hardware MAC addresses have often been used as part of identifying a particular set of hardware. Presumably other people have to change more before it complains, and some people might change less important things and have it complain.

But it really was a major change - the card in it was from about 2006 and only did 2.4 ghz band and B/G/N, the new one is dual band and does A/B/G/N/AC and seems to have been made in 2015 - plus had a Bluetooth 4.0 controller onboard as well (the original had no Bluetooth module, the laptop shipped with a seperate bluetooth thing on a different component).

In terms of Windows activations, the motherboard is a major hardware change. Other alterations may prompt a reactivation, but an OEM license is tied to the mobo. Specifically, from Microsoft (https://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/licensing/sblicensing/pages/licensing_faq.aspx#faq5):

microsoft posted:

Generally, an end user can upgrade or replace all of the hardware components on a computer�except the motherboard�and still retain the license for the original Microsoft OEM operating system software. If the motherboard is upgraded or replaced for reasons other than a defect, then a new computer has been created. Microsoft OEM operating system software cannot be transferred to the new computer, and the license of new operating system software is required.

If the motherboard is replaced because it is defective, you do not need to acquire a new operating system license for the PC as long as the replacement motherboard is the same make/model or the same manufacturer's replacement/equivalent, as defined by the manufacturer's warranty.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2016 02:16

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 05:00

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

OEM licenses are a completely different thing from the Windows 10 digital entitlement. You people really need to stop thinking they have the same rules.

Oh what do you mean, "you people?" Just 'cause I'm black? Racist.

And of course licences are "different from" digital entitlement, but what's your point? Nobody was saying they're the same thing. The discussion has been about hardware changes and reactivation, and the relevant point that I mentioned is that, according to Microsoft itself as I cited, an OEM license is explicitly tied to the motherboard. This defines your flexibility in hardware upgrades with that type of license, and has nothing to do with digital entitlement.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2016 02:37

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

No, the discussion is on the topic of the Windows 10 digital entitlement, because this is the Windows 10 thread and we're talking about what things will cause it to be invalidated.

No, the recent discussion has been about hardware upgrades and activation status. You yourself ran into an issue upgrading a wireless card, and I'm not going to bother quoting you to remind you. "Digital entitlement" is the method by which you activate certain Win10 licenses. You can activate Win10 via a product key (e.g. if you buy a physical copy that comes with a key) or via digital entitlement (e.g. if you activate with a Win7 key, as I did with my Skull Canyon NUC and a copy of Win7 Ultimate that I had lying around) as per http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-10/activation-in-windows-10. However, your rights regarding hardware upgrades are determined by the type of license, not the activation method. A retail copy of Win10 or any Win7/8 license freely upgraded to Win10 can be transferred to another PC or mobo, the mobo being the definitive component as far as MS is concerned. See: https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...92-0792181a8a44

Strictly speaking an original Win10 OEM license is linked to the mobo, whereas in the past Windows licensing was more permissive. If you swapped your mobo from a system with, say, a Win7 OEM license you could persuade MS to allow you to reactivate, but from what they've been saying now, a Win10 OEM license will not be transferrable.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2016 03:16

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

You seem to be grossly confusing the Windows 10 free upgrade with a "Windows 10 OEM license".

I brought up my issue with the wireless card specifically because someone else asked if any one had lost the digital entitlement for changing hardware. You are the only one who's brought up Windows 10 OEM licenses being potentially invalidated as an issue within this whole month, if searching a thread is anything to go by, so I don't know why you think the conversation was about OEM until you came in?

So here's most of the relevant discussion:

nielsm posted:

Your Win10 license is a "digital entitlement" tied to your hardware ID, that entitlement should be valid to the end of time, for any number of reinstalls, as long as the hardware doesn't change too much.

Your Win7 OEM license also should still be valid to reinstall with, but to comply properly you have to wipe the Win10 install.
If Win7 won't activate, call the activation phone and explain that you had to downgrade manually from 10 for whatever reason. That should be a valid reason.

nielsm posted:

Yeah that's the downside of custom built PCs with Microsoft OEM licenses. In that case you're supposed to replace the motherboard with one as similar as reasonably possible, I think. If you can keep all other components the same you can't really say it's a (significant) upgrade or system replacement, and they will probably grant you a new activation on the phone...

OTOH if it's a major brand machine, the OEM is supposed to replace the part with another one that will still grant the OEM auto-activation, at least on the original OS. On a Win10 upgraded machine, you would still have to do the phone call.

Arsten posted:

Traditionally, even with a personal OEM license, Microsoft hasn't cared about reactivating - even if you did have to call in to the automated line, depending on the circumstances - as long as the license wasn't being used multiple times. Several times through XP, Vista, and 7 I did significant hardware updates and it reactivated automagically, no phone call needed. While I readily admit that this is the first time they've issued digital entitlements, I doubt that it'll change much from how OEM licenses operated in the past.

The only people that should watch themselves are perhaps those that switch back to 7 or 8 after registering for the digital entitlement.

fishmech posted:

No, it's completely unlike regular OEM licenses. People who have done major upgrades to their hardware since 2015 have already lost digital entitlement. A big reason you could move OEM licenses whenever is that you had an actual key you could tell to the phone line/support/etc.

But if you were to buy any normal Windows 10 license, you don't have to worry about it.

Arsten posted:

That's not true. If you bought an updated card from a laptop vendor, you could plug the new one in!

But it's very odd that changing a wifi card in a modular slot would cause an activation change. I'll have to grab a Dell I have and play with that scenario. If it's true, the free upgrades were too limited.

Eletriarnation posted:

To add an anecdote, I bought a refurb Latitude off Newegg and replaced the mini-PCIe card twice (Dell 2.4GHz N -> Intel 3160 -> Intel 7260) after upgrading from the included Windows 7 Home Premium for Refurbished PCs key to Windows 10 Home. I haven't had any issues with the activation from this. I thought it only triggered on motherboard or maybe CPU upgrades.

So there you go, a whole discussion about hardware upgrades, Windows [re-]activation, and will ya look at that: OEM licenses! It's clear you don't know what you're talking about and haven't been reading the other posts. There's nothing I can do to help you here, man, I've cited MS sources and nothing's getting through to you.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2016 03:50

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

There does seem to be quite a bit of confusion about the terminology involved. I quoted those posts to remind fishmech what we had been discussing in the first place, but between this and an obnoxious discussion we were both involved in in another thread it's painfully clear that he's insane.

Anyways, to simplify the issue, an OEM edition of Windows 10 is linked to the motherboard. This is regardless of if you buy a new PC with the OS installed or if you build your own and buy an OEM copy. This is a new restriction to Win10 (the OEM edition only, not full retail,) and is why you could transfer your OEM Vista or other license to systems with different mobos.

All of this is distinct from other criteria, namely activation (product key vs. digital entitlement,) product edition (Home, Pro, 64b) and so on.

If you upgrade to Win10 from an older OS your Win10 installation carries the rights of that other OS, and you can downgrade if desired, so you could port your Win10 installation to another system if desired.

Sorry for the confusion earlier.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2016 06:34

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Blazing Ownager posted:

I really detest how Microsoft is tying their OS to the motherboard and screwing you entirely if you upgrade your hardware. It really pisses me off to the point I want to pat anyone who does the route on the back. loving Microsoft, punishing people for using their computer.

That said, I'm attempting to get a legit copy of Windows 10 on my home system and to set it up for my parents, and of course am trying to go about this the cheapest possible way; the home version is rear end for me, and I think $200 a pop for an ungimped OS is insane. So my questions (I've read a good chunk of the thread but there's been some back & forth):

A) Is buying a Windows 7 Pro key and upgrading it wise/viable as a route to get this?
B) Does anyone know of any good REPUTABLE sites that sell legit keys? I'm willing to pay more for a legit key, no question! Preferably with digital distribution.
C) Do I understand clearly that if I upgrade my badly aging CPU (or change my hardware config a few times) Win 10 will lock up and I either have to pay $200 or downgrade back to Win 7 right down the line anyway? Not even a limited install limit?

I've been super apprehensive about the upgrade and have repeatedly heard to avoid the Home version like the plague, and am finally needing to crawl out of my very, very stubborn Windows Vista hole given half the games I want to play and even Chrome have cut support for it. i figure they'll axe Win7 in a year or two so I might as well dip into the Win 10 pool.

Without going back over the things that have already been covered, I just wanted to mention the motherboard thing. While, again, it's only a limitation on an OEM edition, even then, is it that much of an issue? While everyone's use case is different, I've been working on and building PCs for over 20 years and have never had to replace a broken motherboard. Sometimes hardware goes bad, but by the time I'd have to pull the mobo and everything else out of a case it's time to replace everything anyway, and that includes a new OS. When I was upgrading from my Vista machine do you think I wanted to keep that OS? Hell loving no. By the time you pull a mobo from a case it'll be a few years down the line and you'll have gotten your money's worth from the OS.

So yeah, OEM Win10 probably won't be an issue anyway, and especially if it's for a parent's PC. Windows Home is fine (especially for the parents) and you can indeed upgrade any 7/8 key you find before the end of next month. If you make hardware upgrades you may have to reactivate Windows, although this is not new to Win10 and is free and easy so isn't even an issue in the first place. It's only the OEM/mobo thing that's new to Win10, and even then it's not a big deal: remember, the discounted OEM licenses are intended for system builders anyway, not home users, so if you buy one at that discounted price be happy for that. ~$100 for a few years is not a bad price for a piece of software, let alone an OS.

WattsvilleBlues posted:

When the free upgrade offer ends they really need to sell Windows 10 at a low price. Sell it for £10 or something. It needs to remain a no-brainer.

At most, yeah, but I'd still be surprised if they don't back down and continue to allow free upgrades since they want Win10 installs to inflate their numbers; it's one thing to sell new licenses for new machines, but I don't see the logic in starting to charge for upgrades that some people didn't want for free in the first place.

RightClickSaveAs posted:

Speaking of W10 OEM keys, did anyone try one of the $14-15 W10 Pro OEM key deals that have been popping up on Slickdeals? This is the latest: http://slickdeals.net/f/8834375-windows-10-professional-oem-key-14-00-key-only
Seems like it could be a cheap way to do a Home/Regular to Pro upgrade.

The website in this case looks slightly dodgy: http://opiumpulses.com/store/1259/windows-10-professional

I'm personally going to give W10 another year or so, at that point it should be almost ready for release! Thinking about picking up a key now though and just holding on to it in case they do something dumb with the pricing.

Guys have been asking about key resellers, and someone mentioned keys from this place:

https://www.kinguin.net/category/19429/windows-10-professional-oem-key/

I and some of the other goons have successfully purchased game codes from Kinguin, which is some weird, shady-looking key marketplace; the keys come from 3rd parties but Kinguin does offer buyer protection, so if they key doesn't work they'll give you a refund. I haven't tried purchasing a Windows key yet but $30 isn't a huge risk for a Pro OEM key. If I can't get a Win10 license transferred from an old netbook that I don't use anymore I'll try to purchase one of those Kinguin keys; I'll need one for a Kangaroo mini-PC.

# ¿ Jun 16, 2016 03:45

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Aranan posted:

I'm going to hop on this free upgrade thing while it's here now that I know it has a deadline. I do have a question, though. My current machine is Win7 and I want to do a fresh install. I'm creating the installation USB right now so I can just boot off of it and have a fresh and clean computer for Windows 10. However, I have no idea where my Windows 7 key is. I'm pretty sure I ordered it online from Microsoft years ago, but I've been digging through my email and can't find it. From what I understand, Windows 10 is going to prompt me for a key and I'm supposed to enter my Windows 7 key. Is there a way for me to recover my Windows 7 key before I essentially reformat my computer?

You could just do the upgrade, make sure Win10 is activated, then do a fresh install (which isn't even necessary, the upgrade shouldn't cause you any problems.) Because you upgraded on that system future installs will not require a re-entry of that key.

Also, if you were doing this on a prebuilt system (say, a laptop) the "key" in the registry is probably a generic OEM key and not the actual one you need. I ran into this just yesterday; the MS COA sticker with the key was actually underneath the battery. My bro had an old laptop and I wanted to get the Win7 key for him to use to get Win10 on his desktop.

Gray Matter posted:

I'm out of the country for several months and ordered a new laptop shipped to my dad's house so I could take advantage of the free upgrade to 10 before it expires. Had him run the update but it was telling him there was insufficient disk space - no problem, I sent him a guide to dl some freeware and expand the recovery partition (C:, the drive is 500gb) and it started updating after that. However, he says now the update has been stuck at 99% for several hours. Any thoughts on what the issue is? I didn't see this happen with either my desktop or my laptop when I upgraded them to 10 last year.

I ran into an issue with one or two systems when doing the Win10 upgrades but it eventually resolved itself. Did he try to troubleshoot at all? Reboot the PC and see if it resumes, it probably will.

# ¿ Jun 27, 2016 14:18

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

SourKraut posted:

I never said it grants a Windows 10 key. I said someone can perform a fresh installation of Windows 10 and then use an equivalent-version key of Window 7 to activate. Yes, this will not work once they stop allowing upgrades.

Also, if enough hardware changes, you can contact Microsoft customer support and explain why there were significant hardware changes, and they will grant you a key/code to activate. The person will not have to buy Windows 10.

Don't engage, he's an Autist and is batshit-loving-insane. Check his post history (and post count :eyepop:

redeyes posted:

So who is betting MS will backpedal on the deadline and allow upgrades after the deadline. That is my guess.

See, they certainly want to boost their Win10 adoption numbers, so I think it's not in their best interest to actually cut off the free upgrades. Moreover, what about all the used/refurbed systems still on the market, available with Win7 (or occasionally 8)? You can get good deals on those machines and it would suck to not be able to get the Win10 upgrade just because you happened to buy one after the end of July (and they'll certainly still be floating around long after that.) Win10 works particularly well on older hardware; it'd be a shame to lose that [free] option.

I mean I suppose you could just by $30 OEM Win10 Pro keys from Kinguin. :shrug:

# ¿ Jun 28, 2016 04:09

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Last Chance posted:

what?

In other words, not changing the name of future versions of the OS to "Windows 11", "Windows 12", etc. Instead just do "Windows 10.1" or "Windows 10 2017", etc. Like what Fruitbat wrote above regarding OS X.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2016 13:34

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Massasoit posted:

I upgraded my laptop to 10 when it came out but I held off on my tower but I think I'm going to do it soon.

My win 7 install is from link like 2011 or 2012 - would I benefit from doing a clean install or will upgrade in place work well enough?

Well a clean install won't hurt, but again, the simplest thing to do is upgrade first because then a fresh install is easy (i.e. your hardware is recognized and you never have to re-enter your key.) I mean I suppose an old, "dirty" Win7 installation might cause the Win10 upgrade to fail (this initially happened on one of my systems) but there's no harm in trying if you were willing to nuke it in the first place.

# ¿ Jun 29, 2016 03:33

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Ihmemies posted:

My friend works at MS and gave me a Windows 10 Pro key. They are allowed to share it with friends and family members so this is all completely OK.

I don't want to upgrade from Windows 8.1 yet, but now I will have a real key which I can use if/when I finally upgrade, and if I change hardware I shouldn't have problems either.

I didn't hate Win8 or anything, but most people didn't seem to like it; why are you so attached to it? Particularly because...

sauer kraut posted:

Finally pushed that button yesterday and it's great
Tinkered with some leftover Win7 drivers like my cases dumb cardreader that I never use, Intels USB3.0 thing and the usual Realtek crap, but overall a painless migration.
The new flat UI style is.. really something. And so many hidden options in every app.

\/ no?

WattsvilleBlues posted:

Sarcasm?

...Win10 is actually good except for all the spying :ninja:

. It's like Win7 + Win8, taking all the good bits from those OSs and the whole is greater than a sum of its parts. It runs well on old machines. Honestly, if you're using Windows 7/8, what's the reason for the holdout? Unless you have some software or hardware that, for some reason, 100% will not run on Win10 you have no excuse. This is like all those idiots who insisted on sticking with WinXP; it was good for its time, but I'm not running a 12+ year old OS with no further security updates. I don't spend much time in Windows nowadays but I updated everything I could to 10.

# ¿ Jun 30, 2016 17:26

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Ihmemies posted:

And 8.1 is not a 12 yo OS full of security holes. 8.1 will get security updates till 2023.. which is 7 more years...

I think you're way too worried about what might happen in a Win10 upgrade but most likely it will go fine. Just back up your stuff and go for it; you can then do a fresh install after Windows activates and recognizes the hardware configuration. Honestly, if your current install is a multi-generation upgrade mess it's time to do a fresh install anyway. Also, what I wrote that you responded to above was specifically in reference to WinXP; I know how old Win8 is. The point was that some people stubbornly refuse to update with no good reason, even if they're running an unsupported, abandoned OS (like XP) regardless of how good it used to be or how much they like it.

# ¿ Jul 1, 2016 07:14

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Meat Recital posted:

How difficult is it to convince Microsoft to let me reuse a Windows 7 OEM key for a new computer? Looking around, while it seems you're not supposed to, if you call them up, they'll often let you do it anyway.

I just did this last week. It's reassigning a Win10 OEM license that's the issue, not using a previous version OEM license in the first place. (They made the terms more restrictive with Win10.) Just install Win10 on the new machine and input the Win7 key.

Aquila posted:

So I am building a decent gaming PC for my nephew out of leftover computer parts I have and so I guess I need a Windows 10 license for it. Is there anyway to get the free Windows 10 upgrade for this system? Since I am using my windows license on my current system I don't have anything I could apply to the upgrade.

You can get the free upgrade from a version of Win7 or 8. Do your "leftover parts" include a Windows license? If not then you have nothing to upgrade.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2016 06:26

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

So I'm not going to directly respond to the Autist, but I'll just reiterate what I stated for clarification for everyone else: you can indeed upgrade Win7/8 to Win10 from an OEM key, one that was used on different hardware, because licensing requirements were less restrictive on those versions of the OS and those rights are legally protected and carry over to your future installation. I already posted links elaborating on this and will not re-post. Also, I know this to be true because as I already wrote, I just performed such an upgrade a week ago. The system is up and running right now.

# ¿ Jul 2, 2016 17:16

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Khablam posted:

Is 'autist' code for 'factually correct' because none of what you posted is true.

OEM licensing has not changed. You seem to flip between understanding the difference between OEM licenses and digtial entitlement, and confusing them for one another, often in the same post.
That's your problem with understanding this.

OEM = OEM
DE = DE
DE != OEM
DE can be used as an OEM license but cannot be reactivated.
OEM can be used as an OEM license and can be reactivated.

It's not hard when you stop confusing them.

Not sure why you decided to jump in, but as I wrote I cited sources from Microsoft - please read them before commenting.

If anything, you're the one confusing activation with licensing. You're not remotely refuting anything I actually wrote; please show me where I wrote that "DE = OEM."

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/12440/windows-10-activation

microsoft posted:

Digital entitlement is a new method of activation in Windows 10 that doesn't require you to enter a product key.

Please familiarize yourself with digital entitlement, activation, licensing, and product keys before spreading misinformation. ~tia

nielsm posted:

Isn't Atomizer saying that a Windows 7 OEM key is good for any number of installs of Windows 10, even on hardware that Windows 7 OEM key was never activated on? I don't read anywhere that says you get a Windows 10 OEM license. Rather what he says is that buying a Windows 10 OEM key is more restrictive than buying a Windows 7 or 8 OEM key and using that to install/activate Windows 10. If you use a Windows 10 OEM key, that key will only ever activate on the hardware it was first bound to, but if you instead use a Windows 7/8 OEM key to activate 10, you can use that key on multiple hardware configurations. Thing just is, doing that is against the word of the EULA.

It's more like MS didn't care if you bought a Win7 OEM key for your own build, then swapped out the mobo or nuked that system and build a new one, reinstalling Win7 with the same key (and license.)

Yes, MS has made Win10 OEM licenses more restrictive [than previous versions] and ties them to your mobo.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us...92-0792181a8a44

Andre Da Costa posted:

When I upgrade a preinstalled (OEM) or retail version of Windows 7 or Windows 8/8.1 license to Windows 10, does that license remain OEM or become a retail license?
If you upgrade from a OEM or retail version of Windows 7 or Windows 8/8.1 to the free Windows 10 upgrade this summer, the license is consumed into it. Because the free upgrade is derived from the base qualifying license, Windows 10 will carry that licensing too.
If you upgrade from a retail version, it carries the rights of a retail version.
If you upgrade from a OEM version, it carries the rights of a OEM version.
Full version (Retail):
- Includes transfer rights to another computer.
- Doesn't require a previous qualifying version of Windows.
- Expensive
Upgrade version (Retail):
- Includes transfer rights to another computer.
- require a previous qualifying version of Windows.
- Expensive, but cheaper than full version
OEM :
OEM versions of Windows are identical to Full License Retail versions except for the following:
- OEM versions do not offer any free Microsoft direct support from Microsoft support personnel
- OEM licenses are tied to the very first computer you install and activate it on
- OEM versions allow all hardware upgrades except for an upgrade to a different model motherboard
- OEM versions cannot be used to directly upgrade from an older Windows operating system
What happens if I change my motherboard?
As it pertains to the OEM licenses this will invalidate the Windows 10 upgrade license because it will no longer have a previous base qualifying license which is required for the free upgrade. You will then have to purchase a full retail Windows 10 license. If the base qualifying license (Windows 7 or Windows 8.1) was a full retail version, then yes, you can transfer it.
From the Windows 10 end user license agreement:
b. Stand-alone software. If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices.

I haven't tried to port Windows 10 between systems because I haven't yet had the need but if you try and MS revokes entitlement due to hardware dissimilarity, you know why.

Khablam posted:

You can do this, but it is NOT because of "changes to license agreements" or "because they legally honour it" or whatever atomizer is saying. They simply don't look too closely at Win7/8 keys because they want people to only run into issues if it's clearly piracy. Their EULA and policy wrt OEM activations is unchanged.
It was repeatedly pointed out to atomizer that what is happening is multiple DE's being granted off one key but he won't accept that and thinks there's sneaky policy changes.
tl;dr he's misappropriated what he's seeing happen and creating FUD

What the gently caress are you talking about, "multiple DE's being granted off one key"? Every system I've upgraded has had its own, licensed copy of Windows 7 or 8, with a unique product key. I could prove this to you but it would involve revealing every goddamn product key in the house.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 01:50

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Ghostlight posted:

It actually did but most of the time wouldn't enforce it because hobbyists are such a small slice of the market. OEM licenses have always been machine specific and that is generally interpreted to be motherboard determined - DEs are just a much more streamlined way of enforcing that restriction.

Well MS opting not to enforce the terms in effect means that they don't care. I agree with you though.

Khablam posted:

Here:

That's you talking about OEM licenses by showing MS talking about DE licenses. Ergo, you are saying OEM = DE.

I literally never said OEM = DE and you've spectacularly failed to prove that by quoting...a MS link. I believe this is called a "failquote."

On top of that, you're trying to prove that I'm wrong in referring to Microsoft's own policies...by quoting a Microsoft-direct source? :psyboom:

Khablam posted:

The reason you can upgrade from an OEM key onto different hardware is because this has never been strictly enforced. You can handily use the same OEM key on multiple setups of Win 10 and it will grant each new hardware profile a DE. All of the above violates the EULA and it violates all versions of their EULA since forever (or at least XP). Nothing has changed, you're just misattributing why it's working.

This is potentially 'bad' because we're in the grace period of free upgrades so any "it works now so it MUST work in August" is, at best, a guess and a silly post. At worst, there are financial consequences for anyone reading what you write and deciding to hold off on upgrades because they assume the deadline doesn't apply to what they're doing.

Note that I have never once discussed, endorsed, or performed a Win7/8 OEM license to multiple new machines. If it works, great, but all of my upgrades were on systems that already had Win7/8 in place. Two other systems had their HDDs reformatted, and the Win7 key from one was used to convert to Win10 on the other; the donor system now has Chromium.

I don't disagree with you about the actual terms and intent of MS's EULAs, but I've never made any guarantees about what will work in the future. All I've done is relay information derived directly from Microsoft, and more importantly, have cited my sources.

And don't give me this bullshit about "financial consequences" for people holding off on upgrades; I've been trying to persuade everyone to upgrade NOW:

Atomizer posted:

I didn't hate Win8 or anything, but most people didn't seem to like it; why are you so attached to it? Particularly because...

...Win10 is actually good except for all the spying . It's like Win7 + Win8, taking all the good bits from those OSs and the whole is greater than a sum of its parts. It runs well on old machines. Honestly, if you're using Windows 7/8, what's the reason for the holdout? Unless you have some software or hardware that, for some reason, 100% will not run on Win10 you have no excuse. This is like all those idiots who insisted on sticking with WinXP; it was good for its time, but I'm not running a 12+ year old OS with no further security updates. I don't spend much time in Windows nowadays but I updated everything I could to 10.

Atomizer posted:

I think you're way too worried about what might happen in a Win10 upgrade but most likely it will go fine. Just back up your stuff and go for it; you can then do a fresh install after Windows activates and recognizes the hardware configuration. Honestly, if your current install is a multi-generation upgrade mess it's time to do a fresh install anyway. Also, what I wrote that you responded to above was specifically in reference to WinXP; I know how old Win8 is. The point was that some people stubbornly refuse to update with no good reason, even if they're running an unsupported, abandoned OS (like XP) regardless of how good it used to be or how much they like it.

# ¿ Jul 3, 2016 17:31

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Palladium posted:

Is there a surefire way to actually "make Folder View->Apply to all Folders" work and lock across all folders in File Explorer? Win 10 just seems to change view settings at it's whim and It's driving me mad because I never had this problem back on Win7.

Is this a thing with Windows, changing settings randomly between reboots? I'm having issues with it: un-checking "enhance pointer precision" and changing my audio devices, seemingly with every reboot. With the latter in particular, I actually have all devices disabled except the one output (SPDIF) and one input (USB mic) I want to use all the time, and Windows will re-enable other devices (e.g. a monitor, a headset mic) and make them default. Is there any way to fix this?

# ¿ Aug 20, 2017 20:38

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

I've noticed a couple of weird things on my Windows systems:
- Mobile devices end up with a dead battery after just a couple days being left off, and left at 100% when shut down (and not put into sleep mode.)
- An external HDD that I use for a weekly backup, then disconnect (via Windows, but leave plugged in physically) is not detected upon cold boot but it's listed in Device Manager as if I disconnected it after booting that session (i.e. "marked for disconnect, unplug and replug to use this device") except as above, the system has been powered down fully first since the last disconnect.
- Task Manager lists uptimes of days when the devices have been powered off for all that time. Only when the system is rebooted does the uptime indicator reset to 0.

Are those problems related to Windows Fast Startup? That does appear to be the case, so disabling it and hibernation (which I never use anyway) should resolve all of the issues above, correct?

# ¿ Oct 17, 2018 10:06

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

I just recently read an article and learned that the Windows "check for updates" button puts you at the front of the queue for new updates when they're normally intentionally rolled out to users progressively. This is why so many people were experiencing the "deletes files in the user folders" bug before it could get caught and fixed. I had no loving idea Windows did this; I checked for updates to make sure the system wouldn't reboot at a time that was inopportune! :bahgawd:

mystes posted:

Fast startup just suspends the kernel to disk so as with normal suspending to disk (hibernation) it shouldn't be able to cause battery drain. Otoh, lots of people claim it does cause battery drain for them and there's no harm in disabling it. I guess there could be some sort of bug where some laptops aren't fully shutting down with fast startup?

It is somewhat pointless with ssds anyway (normal sleep/hibernation/hybrid sleep are more useful since they maintain the state of applications), so I'm not sure why they enable it by default honestly.

Yeah, every system I have has the OS on an SSD, so I've got no regrets about disabling Fast Startup.

I agree that hibernate, unlike sleep/suspend should still turn the whole PC off, preventing any battery drain, but how else can I explain a laptop that's "off," unplugged, with no other devices attached, whose battery drains from 100% to 0% in a matter of days? Top that off with Windows displaying days of uptime when it's clearly been off and that's why I'm trying to connect the dots here from Fast Startup to battery drain. :shrug:

baka kaba posted:

This kinda feels like expected behaviour though - you've "disconnected" the drive, so it stays that way until you plug it in again. Like an off switch on the drive itself

Right, but power cycling the system should do the same thing, unless Fast Startup is really not shutting down the system and instead resuming the previous session where the drive is still marked for disconnect (which makes sense and explains this behavior.) I'd rather not have to reach behind the PC and unplug/replug it every time. I'm using it this way because I want the drive to receive a backup and then immediately power down, both to limit wear/use of that drive and to protect it from any malady (malware, infection, etc.) that would impact any drive connected to and running on the PC.

# ¿ Oct 17, 2018 22:10

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

baka kaba posted:

Yeah I get why you want it to work that way, but it seems like they're intentionally and persistently marking the drive as "off" ("marked for disconnect" meaning "don't use this anymore it's getting pulled at some point"). So even when you reboot, the drive is still marked as unusable until someone explicitly reconnects it again. I mean it makes sense - it's safer and what if the computer reboots without you seeing it, say for an update or through some network admin action? This way it's the user who decides when they want to start using it again, not Windows

No it works as intended when you reboot, and it doesn't properly disconnect and reconnect when you power down as I'd expect (at least with hibernation in use.)

mystes posted:

Fast startup does prevent the uptime from being reset, so that's normal.

Right but I can only conclude that something in the system is draining the battery faster than expected. I mean to put it another way, if you fully power off a laptop how long would you expect it to drain? Definitely more than a few days, right?

# ¿ Oct 17, 2018 23:05

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

There wouldn't happen to be any memory cards or whatever constantly plugged in to the laptop with unusual power drain, would there? I had a laptop once where the SD reader would constantly drain power in off mode for that reason.

Sometimes it's even a fully internal part that doesn't shut off right, like a wifi card.

There are no cards or USB devices or anything like that when this occurs, but it could certainly be an internal component if that's a possible cause of this battery drain issue. If that's indeed the case then it seems like a pretty difficult problem to deal with.

Klyith posted:

Alternately one of the battery cells is knackered and windows has nothing to do with what's happening.

Seems like the only way to diagnose that would be if I could reliably determine the runtime on battery is the appropriate proportion less than the expected runtime? Like if you'd expect 9 hours on a 3-cell battery and were getting close to 6 that would indicate 1/3 bad cells?

Last Chance posted:

OS sure sounds like 'POS if the laptop can't sleep

I don't even need sleep mode for my Windows devices. I either have the Plex server running 24/7, otherwise any other device is basically, "turn on, play games, then turn off for a few days." I use ChromeOS for everything else that doesn't need Windows specifically.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2018 00:46

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Geemer posted:

That's really not how batteries work. A single bad cell can and will completely destroy battery life to the point where Windows will even tell you something is wrong with it and you should change it. But more often you get your notebook's charge indicator blinking angrily at you while Windows goes "what battery?"

You can use something like BatteryInfoView to check your battery's health.

I'm familiar with electronics in general as well as electrochemical cells. The effect of a bad cell will depend on how they're wired into a battery (series, parallel, both.) However, I've never known to have experienced a battery with one bad cell as opposed to the whole thing just wearing down over time, which is why I was inquiring about diagnosing it in a computing device. The worst-case scenario would be if it happened in a device where the battery is soldered in and/or in a glued-together device like the Surface line. I will check out that software and see if it offers any insight. Thanks for your advice.

# ¿ Oct 18, 2018 21:49

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

I only had a little bit of time to see the results of disabling hibernation and fast boot, but it seems to have solved the "power off" issue, and the USB HDD appears to behave as expected, and the up-time counter appears to have reset. I haven't yet booted up one of the affected laptops to see how the battery is faring this time. (Need to wait a number of days anyway.)

Raldikuk posted:

I have had the same issue with my laptop. When I first got it (with Win10 preinstalled) the battery drained overnight even while using shut down but disabling fast boot seemed to solve the issue (even though there's no reason it should). Fast forward to an update a few months ago (not sure which actual update did it) and the problem reappeared and fast boot had reenabled itself. I got it disabled but the problem persisted.

I wish I had a solution but at this point I've resigned myself to the fact that I will have to plug my laptop in to get it to boot if I haven't used it for a day. Once it is fully charged it has normal battery life so the battery itself is fine.

In my research I did read that Fast Boot is often re-enabled after some updates, probably one of the major ones. As long as I'm expecting that I can deal with it and re-disable Fast Boot, however. As above, I'm not yet certain this is going to address the battery drain issues on any of my devices.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2018 08:48

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Fast Boot apparently uses hibernation, and so I disabled both to be on the same side, plus I literally never use it.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2018 10:51

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Delthalaz posted:

Are any of you guys experts with OneDrive? I have a paid subscription for 1tb with the whole office 365 thing. I'm tempted to actually use it and sync my documents folder, but as an old man I keep getting this feeling that uploading all my poo poo to the internet (including financial docs, etc) is just a bad idea. Is it safe?

My documents folder is a huge mess too, I think 36gb total, so it would be nice to have it all backed up. Will syncing my documents somehow get them all deleted randomly? I tried syncing up one folder using the mklink function but it doesn't seem to be working too well, so I was thinking about using their actual built-in functionality.

Delthalaz posted:

Ugh, I was hoping to use this stupid thing for backup.

You can definitely use it as backup, but use the guiding principle of, "the more important something is, the more copies you should keep." So if you've got something unimportant (say, random cat photos from the Web) then you don't need to back them up. Downloaded audio/video/games that would be kind of a pain to re-acquire? Two copies. Important financial documents? Perhaps three copies. Irreplaceable family photos? You get the idea.

I'd be a little apprehensive about uploading sensitive financial documents, but like isndl wrote you can just encrypt them for peace of mind.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2018 22:35

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

mystes posted:

The majority of home users have a trial version of WinZip installed? Are you posting from the 90s?

Duh, everybody knows you use WinRAR and you are REQUIRED to register it. :colbert:

# ¿ Oct 24, 2018 02:11

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

The Milkman posted:

I've been having intermittent lockup/stuttering on my new laptop. It seems to enter spells where every ~20 seconds it freezes for about 2-5 seconds. It's persisted across reinstalls (1803 and 1809), on the OEM SSD and the new ADATA I slapped in there. Sleeping/waking makes it go away for a bit. Thermals don't seem to be a factor. Drivers/BIOS are up to date. It never happens in Linux (problem solved?)

Any ideas?

This sounds like some background activity causing a bottleneck somewhere. If you have Task Manager running when this happens, what resources are being maxed out? Typically I've seen this happen either during Windows Updates or an A/V scan, so I'd expect either the CPU or SSD to be the issue here (which is why sleep mode helps - because all activity is ceased.) This could also be a symptom of a lower-end SSD (i.e. a DRAMless one;) what are the model numbers of the Adata and the OEM drives?

# ¿ Oct 25, 2018 04:06

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

The Milkman posted:

Last time it happened, yeah the disk was the only thing with much activity -- CPU, Memory, Network were all negligible. I didn't manage a screen grab but it was mostly Logfile and Windows Storage Class something other other with the most activity.

I don't know about the OEM drive, but the one I put in should be fairly good. It's the XPG 8200 / 960GB. http://www.adata.com/upload/downloadfile/Datasheet_XPG%20SX8200_EN_20180316.pdf

I've been running with resource monitor in the background all day to keep tabs and for the first time haven't hit any hitches. I did replace the driver for the on board SD card reader with the one from Lenovo over the Microsoft one. I suppose it's possible that was freaking out?

That's a good NVMe SSD. It really does sound like the issue is Windows background activity, especially when you can't identify any obvious 3rd-party applications using excessive resources in Task Manager. Definitely let the system do what it needs to do by leaving it on for awhile when you're not using it.

# ¿ Oct 26, 2018 04:14

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

I'm still annoyed that "check for updates" actually means "make me an alpha tester for buggy updates without informing me" instead of "apply pending updates now because I'm going to power down or restart anyway" like I'd always assumed. Then again, it hasn't been a huge issue until recently.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 03:59

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

No, it doesn't. Unless you've already changed other settings.

That's never been what "check for updates" means in Windows Update. It also again doesn't tell the Illuminati to give you secret updates.

I was exaggerating a little bit, but only a little. I don't have the original article, but this one states the same thing. From MS directly:

Microsoft posted:

We intentionally start each feature update rollout slowly, closely monitoring feedback before offering the update more broadly. In this case the update was only available to those who manually clicked on �check for updates� in Windows settings.

So yes, 1809 wasn't being pushed out to everyone immediately (and for good reason) but those who manually checked for updates did indeed get it earlier than they would have automatically. So yes, I was being hyperbolic, but what I wrote was otherwise correct, per MS.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 07:57

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

So that's something entirely different from what you claimed, do you really not see that? It was already considered final release ready update, and there's always going to be some group that goes first. Many people received 1809 who hadn't done anything special on their machines either, as they'd been randomly picked.

Like I said, I was being hyperbolic, and you're being pedantic (no surprise there.) I didn't literally mean "alpha tester," rather, that was a reference to the updates being full of multiple, rather significant bugs, as if it wasn't tested properly before being made available for consumers.

The complaint is not that the updates are rolled out progressively (which is good, because among other things that lets them catch problems before they've been propagated to most users, which is what happened here with 1809.) The issue is that "check for updates" puts you at the front of the queue when you'd otherwise receive updates later, (and this is exacerbated by the aforementioned game-breaking (so to speak) bugs,) while MS didn't exactly make this public knowledge. The effect of this is that the user inadvertently becomes a software tester while under the false pretense that they're really just getting their system up-to-date.

As I mentioned, I habitually check for updates when I turn on a Windows system, because often they're off several days at a time and I'd like to have them work on updates immediately so they're ready to apply when I'm ready to reboot or power off, rather than wasting more time. Also, I do have a PMS system that's on 24/7 and occasionally is transcoding video, and I want that to be ready to install updates immediately so it doesn't reboot in the middle of a transcode batch or at some other inopportune time.

Again, the issue is that "check for updates" doesn't simply mean "update Windows," it means, in effect, per MS's own explanation, "grab the buggy update earlier than I normally would receive it." On top of that, while yes, it was rolled out automatically to some users early, the update was quickly pulled (2 days) so that many users who checked early might not have ever received it anyway.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 17:22

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

fishmech posted:

It has never ever meant that, so why are you complaining about this? It means, check for updates. Go load up Windows 98, 2000, ME, XP, Vista, 7, 8 - in all of them checking for updates doesn't mean updating in itself.

Why did you explicitly ask for updates before Windows would normally check for updates, unless you wanted to receive an update earlier than normal, again? It seems like what you're furious about is that it did exactly what it said it would do instead of reading your mind to know that when you check for updates you want nothing to happen.

"Check for updates" does indeed begin updating as soon as it finds updates (it downloads them, then does part of the install, but waits to complete the installation after a reboot - this last part is the thing I was attempting to schedule by updating and rebooting at my convenience.) The issue is that there's the illusion that the updates you're getting will not delete user files and/or break built-in functionality.

You know how if you want to DL some piece of software, you might have the option of "version 1.5 stable" or "version 1.6 beta/nightly/whatever?" That's the surreptitious thing about checking for updates manually - they didn't make it clear you were putting yourself at the front of the queue to test an unstable build.

Also this:

astral posted:

Microsoft is in the wrong for not testing/fixing things well enough before releasing new versions. That's what people should be getting worked up over, and not whether the button itself is working as intended.

...and:

Magnus Praeda posted:

Yeah, if I hit the "check for updates" button, I want whatever the most recent update is to download and install now. What I don't want is for that most recent update to be a bug-ridden piece of poo poo because Microsoft decided to fire their QA department and made me do it as part of using their OS.

...but not:

Lambert posted:

"Check for updates" kind of does mean "update" in Windows 10, it doesn't separate out the installation process like previous versions of Windows did.

Personally, I like the fact checking puts you at the front of the queue. If if wasn't interested in that I wouldn't be pressing that button.

...because there should be a difference between updating now, and as above, installing an unstable, buggy PoS early.

# ¿ Oct 31, 2018 19:51

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

GreenNight posted:

1809 update has resumed.

https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/microsoft/microsoft-resumes-rollout-of-windows-10-october-2018-update/

Oh goodie, I'm fully erect with anticipation for it. :awesome:

# ¿ Nov 13, 2018 19:12

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Last Chance posted:

Let us know how it goes, brave beta testers

Oh don't say that, the last time I made a comment to that effect they acted like I was the weird one for not wanting to install a buggy-as-gently caress update on my PCs. :rolleyes:

# ¿ Nov 13, 2018 19:19

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Last Chance posted:

You were absolutely correct in not wanting glitchy terrible updates on your machine. Even Microsoft encourages that "you to wait until the feature update is offered to your device automatically"

Don't try to skip the line, and in fact install the update as late as possible to allow for beta testing to take place amongst the install base.

My thing was about wanting some control over when Windows installed updates (and more importantly, rebooted.) Truthfully, previous updates haven't been as bad as 1809 was so this hasn't been an issue in the past. There's simply no way to know when your machine's turn will come to automatically install updates, which is why there are few options aside from pulling your machines offline or forcing a manual install.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2018 03:55

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Lester Shy posted:

I'm in the process of putting together a (mostly) new system, but I'm keeping my current SSD and external drives. I originally planned on using my 120GB SSD solely for Windows and one or two games at a time, but over the years it's gotten cluttered, and I always have to move stuff around when I want to play a new game. I want to give it a fresh start for the new build, but I have some questions. I haven't had to reinstall windows in like 15 years.

1) I am getting a new CPU/MOBO, but since my copy of Windows 10 is registered to my Microsoft account, I shouldn't need to buy a new copy, right?

2) Can I just follow the instructions here?
https://www.laptopmag.com/articles/reset-windows-10-pc

3) Should I do this right now on my current system, or after I've completed the new build, or does it even matter?

I'm a little nervous about the whole thing because I have to take apart my current PC to build the new one and if anything goes haywire, I'll be stuck without a working PC. I guess I still have my original Windows 8 discs lying around somewhere.

First, you can keep your existing SSD; 120 GB is fine for just Windows, but nothing else (as you've discovered.) Get another SSD if you have games that you want to keep on it. 128 GB drives are in the $25 range, 256 for $50, 512 for <$75, and 1 TB ones have been around $100.

Next, a Windows license is "registered" to your MS account but tied to the mobo; if it's a retail license you can port it, otherwise an OEM license "belongs" to that specific mobo and you'd have to buy a new license even if the board went kaput and you had to replace it.

That reset procedure is more for if you're going to resell a whole system, or if you were going to otherwise nuke it and reinstall the OS from scratch (this does the same thing.) Since you're building a new system and apparently intend to start with a fresh OS installation I'd just wipe the drive and install Windows from a USB drive after you've assembled the new system.

If your original Windows 8 was a retail version, as above, (which you apparently upgraded to 10 from,) you can perform the aforementioned new Win10 installation from a USB drive, then enter the Win8 license after the OS is up and running and it will accept that to register the Win10 installation.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2018 23:13

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Is there a way to update the contents of a Windows USB installation medium without running the whole media creation tool again? I've been using a drive that was created in 2017 to install Win10 on various systems and I figured I should get it current to avoid having to run tons of updates on every new system. I don't see a way to simply bring the contents of the installer up-to-date, and the 1809 creation tool has been running for a couple hours now, which is the main reason why I've procrastinated updating it regularly.

Hed posted:

I have a new RTX 2080 / 9900K system on a Z390 and was getting BSODs with WDL_VIOLATION. I updated my Nvidia drivers to the latest from Nvidia (vs the Windows Update) and haven't had any issues for a few weeks--except today.

I find that launching Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands consistently restarts my computer and just yields a 161 EventID (Dump file creation failed due to error during dump creation.) and the generic Event ID 41 that the system rebooted without shutting down.

I'm starting to get spooked a bit at my new build--is the recommended burn-in stress test still Prime95? Is there anything that will work my video card too?

FWIW my core temps never get above the 50s Celsius and I'm not OC'ing or anything like that. I did buy uprated RAM but the timings are being handled through SPD.

Aren't there issues with the new RTX cards just dying outright? I mean it could be anything at this point but given the known problems with those GPUs that would probably be my first step.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2018 04:14

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

astral posted:

Writing to USB drives, especially cheap ones, can be extremely slow. Just be patient and have it run in the background, basically.

Or you could look into buying a faster-writing USB drive.

I actually have been using an older USB2 drive, partially because USB3 compatibility issues were suspected a couple of years ago when I started doing this, and partially because it's got a little LCD on it that tells me the device name and thus exactly what it's for. :3:

(It's the 8 GB version of this, for those interested, and it appears to be well over 10 years old, so.... :stare:

)

Anyways, I probably could just use a USB3 flash drive for this, and I even have a 16 GB mSATA SSD in an enclosure that I was going to use as cache, but it would make more sense to use it for my Windows install drive if that's really going to make a significant difference (and it certainly makes more sense to instead use a ~128 GB SSD as a more useful cache.)

# ¿ Nov 26, 2018 05:31

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Dylan16807 posted:

Your problem isn't USB 2. That bottleneck is about 30 megabytes per second, which can transfer 8 gigs in under five minutes. The drive is probably dying, since even the cheapest drives can handle sequential transfers reasonably well.

Edit: The spec for that drive says 7 megabytes per second write, which is still only 20 minutes for the entire capacity. To take more than double that, when writing big files, means something is going very wrong.

So here's the thing: after the bootable drive was complete, I used it to reinstall Windows, which only took 10-20 minutes (the part that required the USB drive, at least, minus the post-install configuration.) I know that part of the medium creation requires a download, then the actual installation, but the latter certainly took far longer than it did to read the necessary files and install the OS. The drive is clearly fast enough, it's the creation process that's unnecessarily long.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2018 10:00

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# ¿ May 12, 2024 05:00

Atomizer: Jun 24, 2007

Hey, you know how I was bitching about how long it takes to create a fresh Win10 USB installer using the tool and also the fact that you can't just update an existing installer?

So, that same old crappy USB2 flash drive took, say, 2 hours to create the installer. I just used it a little while to do a first-time Win10 Pro installation on a Hades Canyon NUC (the top-end 8809G version, with an SX8200 NVMe SSD.) I glanced down at the clock when it started the installation process: 11:34. You know what time it was done with the USB drive (i.e. the system reboots and then you have to remove the drive to force it to boot from the internal drive, where it subsequently finishes up the installation)?

11:38. That's right, it took hours to make the installer but the USB drive is done after only about 4 minutes (+/- 1 minute.) Decade-old USB2 drive be damned, that's pretty absurd how much longer it takes to make the thing in the first place.

Oh well, I'm done bitching about this, thanks for reading my vent.

# ¿ Dec 1, 2018 06:39

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > Windows 10: I know what I'm doing

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