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The idea isn't to oppose automation. Scientific advancement is going to happen. We just need to make sure automation doesn't mean that all the benefits go to the already rich. It's the star trek society vs elysium/libertarian dystopia society issue
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Aug 19, 2015 21:03
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How do you do that? I get having a high marginal rate and limited deductions if you want to stop deadweight loss, that seems more efficient than $15 hour for menial work.
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Aug 20, 2015 02:52
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There is a huge difference between a temp agency and a franchise.
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Aug 20, 2015 03:00
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Kim Jong Il posted:How do you do that? I get having a high marginal rate and limited deductions if you want to stop deadweight loss, that seems more efficient than $15 hour for menial work. Guaranteed minimum income, subsidized food and housing, paying people that don't have jobs to like go to school and learn more things. There are poo poo loads of ways but America's solution is best summed up as "go starve to death in the gutter."
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Aug 20, 2015 03:06
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I'm also very curious about the impact to all professional services industries - particularly consulting. There is a very clear line between staffing agencies and consulting, where in both as a buyer you pay for the flexibility in resources, but in the latter you are also paying for unique/niche/specific skillsets.
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Aug 20, 2015 06:14
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jbusbysack posted:consulting. ... you are also paying for
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Aug 20, 2015 06:23
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With certain firms. Again - even consulting stratifies heavily on the types, but it was easier to differentiate staff-aug-placement firms versus project-based firms.
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Aug 20, 2015 06:25
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computer parts posted:I've yet to find a person who likes working retail. I also think that customers in America would not be the evil shits that they are if everyone had to work retail while in high school. ChairMaster posted:Wait do people not like self-checkouts? I can self checkout in the same amount of time that it takes one of the clerks to do it except people don't take very large amounts of groceries into them so there's never a line up and I don't have to look at or talk to another person, which is a huge bonus for me. I bring my own bags. This usually causes the scales to puke and require the cashier/attendant to show up and press some button. I've also found that enough items are mispriced that the attendant has to wander off to check the prices (I usually shop late at night when they've sent most of the staff home or out to restock shelves). So for me, self-checkout takes twice as long as when a real cashier is present.
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Aug 20, 2015 07:25
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Huttan posted:I've also found that enough items are mispriced that the attendant has to wander off to check the prices (I usually shop late at night when they've sent most of the staff home or out to restock shelves). Why would this be any different between a human cashier and an automated kiosk? They'd have to do a price check either way.
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Aug 20, 2015 15:37
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Alien Arcana posted:Why would this be any different between a human cashier and an automated kiosk? They'd have to do a price check either way. Kiosks gently caress up way more than humans do. Machines are goddamned stupid.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:21
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Kiosks gently caress up way more than humans do. Machines are goddamned stupid. Only as smart as the user
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Aug 20, 2015 18:28
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Only as smart as the user No really, programming is tricking an idiot savant in such a way to be useful. If what exactly you expect happens, it works swimmingly. If something is off, poo poo hits the fan. The amazing things in AI have been around that sort of on the fly learning. So perhaps only as smart as the programmer.
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Aug 20, 2015 18:36
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:Only as smart as the user Every computer is basically a schizophrenic, severely autistic four year old with a learning disability that can only communicate in a broken form of a language you barely know. The biggest reason user errors happen isn't because people are stupid but because they don't understand that it isn't he machine's fault it didn't do what was expected. Machines also think very, very differently from humans. They do exactly what you told them to do it's just sometimes the message got screwed up or you fed it bad information. foobardog posted:So perhaps only as smart as the programmer. Eh there's even limits to that, all told. Programming is extremely difficult no matter which way you slice it and there is never enough time to fix all the bugs. It's also impossible to plan for every possible failure. Aside from that coding is almost always done in teams. Net code is especially awful and those computers are always connected to some kind of network or another. The best way to think about it is summed up by what one of my CS professors told me. "The entire internet is always burning down all the time. It's a miracle anything works." drat near everything is built on temporary hacks that never got fixed, somebody deciding to use a bug as a feature then the bug later being fixed and ruining everything, or just flat out new hardware not getting along with old code. If you can think of a possible way for something to go wrong I guarantee you that it will.
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Aug 20, 2015 19:07
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Eh there's even limits to that, all told. Programming is extremely difficult no matter which way you slice it and there is never enough time to fix all the bugs. It's also impossible to plan for every possible failure. Aside from that coding is almost always done in teams. Net code is especially awful and those computers are always connected to some kind of network or another. The best way to think about it is summed up by what one of my CS professors told me. "The entire internet is always burning down all the time. It's a miracle anything works." 100% agreed, and the fact that it's a team-based process is highly important, too, I was just quipping.
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Aug 20, 2015 19:12
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Self-check out allows me to fake shoplift organic veggies as normal without paying the premium
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Aug 20, 2015 20:11
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gently caress You And Diebold posted:The idea isn't to oppose automation. Scientific advancement is going to happen. We just need to make sure automation doesn't mean that all the benefits go to the already rich. It's the star trek society vs elysium/libertarian dystopia society issue Even star trek's history contains a period of nuclear war and eugenics. Hell, it still takes nearly another century after first contact before it dawns on everyone to stop making GBS threads on each other. ToxicSlurpee posted:Guaranteed minimum income, subsidized food and housing, paying people that don't have jobs to like go to school and learn more things. There are poo poo loads of ways but America's solution is best summed up as "go starve to death in the gutter." Pretty much this. I think the big hurdle is finding a way past the existential crisis that comes about from realizing the protestant work ethic falls apart when there aren't enough jobs. That "go starve to death in a gutter" sentiment stems directly from a kind of work ethic rooted in religious belief, and those kinds of people are more likely to shift blame and twist logic around as far as possible before admitting it's a lovely creed.
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Aug 20, 2015 21:54
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foobardog posted:No really, programming is tricking an idiot savant in such a way to be useful. What do you think a cashier does, though? I've worked retail, you're scanning it through a computer, usually programmed just as poorly, if not worse, than the self-checkouts. (Especially if someone in marketing decided on an amazingly stupid sale, and the coders messed it up) That is to say, if the self-checkout is consistently ringing up the wrong price, so would the register, and it's a result of deliberate or negligent store policy, not self check-out.
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Aug 20, 2015 22:10
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What do you think a cashier does, though? I've worked retail, you're scanning it through a computer, usually programmed just as poorly, if not worse, than the self-checkouts. (Especially if someone in marketing decided on an amazingly stupid sale, and the coders messed it up) Right, but with a cashier that "knows" the prices, you have a higher likelihood of them knowing something is wrong, and asking for a price check. It's quite a bit harder to write code that would somehow "realize" that a price check is needed. Basically, a human cashier that scans a box of cereal and sees it come up as deodorant could figure out it's the wrong price. For a computer to realize that, you'd need visual recognition that we're just beginning to reach.
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Aug 20, 2015 23:40
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WhiskeyJuvenile posted:Self-check out allows me to fake shoplift organic veggies as normal without paying the premium One of my local supermarkets got rid of self-checkout - likely just for this reason.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:25
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foobardog posted:Right, but with a cashier that "knows" the prices, you have a higher likelihood of them knowing something is wrong, and asking for a price check. It's quite a bit harder to write code that would somehow "realize" that a price check is needed. Yeah, I've never encountered that in my year of working retail and years of using self check-out. And if anything I've seen cashiers make mistakes (particularly with produce) much more often than machines, and they had to have the customer inform them of that fact. The machine giving you gruff for using your own bags or randomly deciding you've tampered with it and asking for a human to look it over is far more common.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:26
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I've literally never had a problem using my own bags or getting the wrong price on a self checkout. I feel like this is just really old people who don't know what a computer is or how to work with one? Or maybe all the stores in the US are just all lovely and don't spend any money on their self checkouts?
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Aug 21, 2015 02:50
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ChairMaster posted:I've literally never had a problem using my own bags or getting the wrong price on a self checkout. I feel like this is just really old people who don't know what a computer is or how to work with one? Or maybe all the stores in the US are just all lovely and don't spend any money on their self checkouts? It's the latter. The one time I used self-checkout in the UK they helpfully had an option where you could say "hey, yes, I am using my own bag". The ones I've seen in the US get confused because it might take you longer to put something in the bag and then put it on the side of what's already been scanned, or the multi-use bags are heavier, etc.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:57
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ChairMaster posted:I've literally never had a problem using my own bags or getting the wrong price on a self checkout. I feel like this is just really old people who don't know what a computer is or how to work with one? Or maybe all the stores in the US are just all lovely and don't spend any money on their self checkouts? Hmm.
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Aug 21, 2015 02:59
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The reason that self-checkout is slow is because it doesn't split the cart removal and scanning/bagging effort between two people and it prevents doing either stage with multiple products at a time due to weight scale. But that's all besides the point anyway because the big thing that could replace cashiers isn't robots, it's cheap RFID tags. If RFID tags become cheap enough to put on everything and pressed hard enough by retailers, then that whole process will be eliminated because you'll be able to just throw everything in a bag while you're shopping, have the POS terminal scan it all while it's still bagged, pay, and leave.
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Aug 21, 2015 03:01
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FRINGE posted:So the person who 'doesnt like talking to people or looking them in eye' also thinks everyone else is old and dumb. Yea you can be a hosed up weirdo introvert and also be young and good with computers. In fact I imagine those descriptions spend a lot of time together. Absurd Alhazred posted:It's the latter. The one time I used self-checkout in the UK they helpfully had an option where you could say "hey, yes, I am using my own bag". The ones I've seen in the US get confused because it might take you longer to put something in the bag and then put it on the side of what's already been scanned, or the multi-use bags are heavier, etc. That's hosed up that they don't have that in the US. I've never seen a checkout that didn't have an option for using your own bag.
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Aug 21, 2015 03:03
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OneEightHundred posted:The reason that self-checkout is slow is because it doesn't split the cart removal and scanning/bagging effort between two people and it prevents doing either stage with multiple products at a time due to weight scale. There's a great commercial from the 90s where a shady-looking dude in a trenchcoat walks through a grocery store stuffing products into his coat, and as he steps out the door there's a tone and a flash of light and the security guard approaches. "Sir? You forgot your receipt." I'm still annoyed that that doesn't work yet.
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Aug 21, 2015 03:34
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OneEightHundred posted:The reason that self-checkout is slow is because it doesn't split the cart removal and scanning/bagging effort between two people and it prevents doing either stage with multiple products at a time due to weight scale. Self checkout is slow because you have to go one item at a time and wait for weight confirmation (or the much more rare belt with computer vision) while a trained cashier can already be scanning the next item before even putting down the previous one on the belt to the bagging area or can enter multiples of an item with a single scan + keypress. I think retailers are going to give up on RFID in favor of getting people to scan things themselves using smartphone apps with random checks when leaving the store or bagging things up. Maybe expensive things will get RFIDs to prevent shoplifting. That gives the bonus of being able to track the ever loving poo poo out of a customer's movement throughout the store and even during their normal day if they are dumb enough to allow location service access (or have an Android device where you don't get the choice to decline it).
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Aug 21, 2015 04:23
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ChairMaster posted:
They do, the Safeway near me has a button for that. Self-checkout is great if you want to buy things after 8pm or before 730 am when there's only one checker working and you happen to get to the line at the same time that all other 10+ nightbirds including the old person who still pays with checks show up. The same Safeway, prior to the machines, could have a 20+ minute line until they finally managed to wrangle someone from the back over the PA to get one more lane open which is a blast when I'm holding one or two items.
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Aug 21, 2015 05:56
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Pope Guilty posted:There's a great commercial from the 90s where a shady-looking dude in a trenchcoat walks through a grocery store stuffing products into his coat, and as he steps out the door there's a tone and a flash of light and the security guard approaches. I believe that was an AT&T commercial, but they later sold off their research labs, or at least some of them. They still have R&D for telecom.
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Aug 21, 2015 06:14
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Pope Guilty posted:There's a great commercial from the 90s where a shady-looking dude in a trenchcoat walks through a grocery store stuffing products into his coat, and as he steps out the door there's a tone and a flash of light and the security guard approaches. I think part of it is because retail knows that it's dying. The assumption there was that stores would still exist. Last I heard interblag shopping is taking over retail something fierce. Which is why every store has a website and stuff like Walmart's Site To Store thing is being pushed. Stores are nice for certain things or if you need something Right loving Now but really, online shopping is putting a squeeze on retail.
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Aug 21, 2015 09:42
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OneEightHundred posted:The reason that self-checkout is slow is because it doesn't split the cart removal and scanning/bagging effort between two people and it prevents doing either stage with multiple products at a time due to weight scale. Who uses self-checkout if they have a cart?
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Aug 21, 2015 14:01
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ToxicSlurpee posted:I think part of it is because retail knows that it's dying. The assumption there was that stores would still exist. Last I heard interblag shopping is taking over retail something fierce. Which is why every store has a website and stuff like Walmart's Site To Store thing is being pushed. Stores are nice for certain things or if you need something Right loving Now but really, online shopping is putting a squeeze on retail. At least for groceries, the problem is a bit different. Less than 10% of the grocery market is online right now, and a little more than 50% of people said they would make the switch in the undefined future in a recent study. So online is causing a shift, but it's going to be a long time before it really starts strangling supermarkets, barring some paradigm shift (easing drone laws is the most likely cause right now). The real problem is that people correlate brick-in-mortar experiences with how good a brand is online, and vice-versa. So you have enough people shifting online that you can't ignore that logistical nightmare (which is what online delivery becomes when fresh produce and locally sourced foods enter the picture), but you can't shift money away from your physical retail because shopping at lovely stores makes customers believe your online service is going to be lovely too. Target is caught in this sandwich right now, and is simultaneously trying to beef up its physical and online supply chains while they both eat each other. Oh yeah, and you're doing all this while your investors are demanding investments not cut into profits and you deal with rising minimum wages in major metro areas across the country (don't get me wrong, this is a great thing and long overdue, but from the retail perspective it's part of the overall problem and they tend to ignore it's a problem they helped create).
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Aug 21, 2015 16:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:It's the latter. The one time I used self-checkout in the UK they helpfully had an option where you could say "hey, yes, I am using my own bag". The ones I've seen in the US get confused because it might take you longer to put something in the bag and then put it on the side of what's already been scanned, or the multi-use bags are heavier, etc. They have these in Oregon (at Safeway at the very least). It's more that there's not a culture for using reusable bags outside of very specific parts of the US.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:05
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Big Mad Drongo posted:At least for groceries, the problem is a bit different. Less than 10% of the grocery market is online right now, and a little more than 50% of people said they would make the switch in the undefined future in a recent study. So online is causing a shift, but it's going to be a long time before it really starts strangling supermarkets, barring some paradigm shift (easing drone laws is the most likely cause right now). To be honest I think that illustrates like all of the problems that America is running into right now, top to bottom. The internet is remaking absolutely everything but the transition isn't always comfortable and there are costs involved. The people doing all of the actual work are sick of being paid gently caress all while the price of everything goes up but everything is getting more expensive because investors are looking at their investments and only ever saying "more." But the reduced spending power of those same workers is putting a further crunch on retail. People can't buy poo poo if they can't afford to but all the investors are saying is "gently caress it, more." But then the increased automation and lower demand for work is creating a situation where there are just plain fewer workers to actually buy crap.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:17
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TROIKA CURES GREEK posted:
The only businesses that would be hurt are shittily managed ones, ones on the knife edge of failing already, or ones that sell such marginal cheap garbage to poors that no one would buy their poo poo anymore. Disposable income goes up with minimum wage, so most businesses would benefit. The first thing people would do with their raises is go out to eat and buy poo poo.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:31
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Someone post the history of "___________ will kill businesses!" comic
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Aug 21, 2015 17:35
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Trent posted:Disposable income goes up with minimum wage, so most businesses would benefit. The first thing people would do with their raises is go out to eat and buy poo poo. Ah, the economics of wishful thinking. Money gets transferred to workers, then mostly back to businesses, all while introducing deadweight loss. By what mechanism are "most businesses" supposed to benefit?
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Aug 21, 2015 17:36
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Gravel Gravy posted:Who uses self-checkout if they have a cart? Some stores have full lanes that are scan-your-own, as opposed to the small, limited item kiosks you see in groups of 4 or 6.
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Aug 21, 2015 17:39
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Scrub-Niggurath posted:Someone post the history of "___________ will kill businesses!" comic 
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Aug 21, 2015 17:40
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Series DD Funding posted:Ah, the economics of wishful thinking. Money gets transferred to workers, then mostly back to businesses, all while introducing deadweight loss. By what mechanism are "most businesses" supposed to benefit? Coming from the guy who disagrees with the idea that a group of people negotiating collectively has more leverage than employees acting on their own, the fact that you're confused is quite understandable! You see, people have minimum needs to survive - food, shelter, clothing and so on. At current minimum wages, they aren't able to meet those needs. By putting more money in their pockets, they're able to buy more of what they need, or better save for emergencies that may come up, making society more stable over time. Given that labor costs aren't the total sum of business operating costs means that the increased demand makes more money for the majority of businesses over all. The reductions in turnover and training costs also help a great deal.
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Aug 21, 2015 18:24
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