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Grogquock
May 2, 2009

ShadowCatboy posted:

Well it's important to note that when we commonly encounter organized events of very low probability, we generally infer that these must have been the result of design. For example, it would be very difficult to explain the structure of Stonehenge with appeals to normal geological or weathering forces. Creationist arguments simply try to apply this logic to life itself. I must emphasize "try," of course.

So yes, a lot of Creationist arguments these days hinge on probabilistic claims. You see this mostly in the Intelligent Design camp, since they specialize in more technical and less obviously stupid arguments. The second argument you propose here is similar to the Fine Tuning Argument, which goes like this:

1. Consider the laws and constants of the universe and all the possible alternate values they could have taken.
2. The vast, vast majority of other alternatives would make life in our universe impossible. (For example, if the strong nuclear force were just a hair stronger, hydrogen would fuse into other weird conformations instead of helium. Stellar dynamics would be drastically altered, and it would be impossible for human life to evolve).
3. Therefore, our universe must've been designed by some being (God).
4. Therefore, God exists.

Now, how might you try to debunk this?

Without reference to the weak anthropic principle to explain away the probability issue, one flaw with this argument is that is simply shifts the "probability measurement" to something that by definition doesn't have to be or can't be explained. Why is the existence of a being that defies all known physics and exists above/beyond them more probable than any other explanation? It falsely seems more probable because we don't understand and can't understand anything about that being. I hate to get into the who created the creator argument, but a logic that relies on "complex/unlikely things must be created" only goes anywhere by ignoring that fundamental argument when applied to the creator. If it doesn't it's turtles all the way down.

Though I know this wasn't meant to be true example, Stonehenge is of course not explained with geological forces because it is more easily explained with known human phenomena supported by extensive supporting evidence. We don't need to use the existence of Stonehenge to prove humans exist. If anything the intelligent design argument more parallels the crazies who believe that Stonehenge and the pyramids were built by aliens, which simply requires more and even less probable events to have occurred. If on the other hand if we find a Stonehenge on Mars and there was absolutely zero other evidence to support that it was designed (beyond than its mere existence) you would certainly see attempts to explain it by known natural phenomena.

Grogquock fucked around with this message at 02:38 on Aug 20, 2015

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